Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

Pixel Eater

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail have released 2027 Strategy. Quick scan pg 33 details proposed freq:

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/company-information/iarnrod-eireann-strategy

Dublin-Cork (30 mins freq at peak times)
Dublin-Belfast (hourly service)
Dublin-Liomerick (extra direct, peak with extra Cork)
Dublin-Galway (hourly service)
Dublin-Waterford (hourly service)
Dublin-Westport (2 hourly service)
Dublin-Sligo (2 hourly service, hourly peak on part of route)
Dublin-Tralee (2 hourly service, hourly peak with extra Cork)
Dublin-Rosslare (build to 2 hourly service)

This looks great although won't an hourly service to Belfast would be tough with the planned increased frequency of DART services plus its extension to Drogheda? I see there's a passing loop planned for Clongriffin, even with this and resignaling it will be hard to fit all those services onto a dual track line with so many stations

loyatemu

Pixel Eater wrote: »

This looks great although won't an hourly service to Belfast would be tough with the planned increased frequency of DART services plus its extension to Drogheda? I see there's a passing loop planned for Clongriffin, even with this and resignaling it will be hard to fit all those services onto a dual track line with so many stations

needs a passing loop somewhere around Raheny to fit around the 10 min Dart.

Pixel Eater

loyatemu wrote: »

needs a passing loop somewhere around Raheny to fit around the 10 min Dart.

Which would be pretty tough with all the houses around there so close to the line. Maybe taking a chuck out of Clontarf golf course between Clontarf Road and Killester stations?

TheBoyConor

Is there any mention in the fleet plan of what is to be done with the 2700s? Awful shame to have not even mid life units lying idle. I understand that a full refit was priced and was insanely expensive but they should be looking at the idea of adapting them into sets of 4 or 6 for use with 2 power cars, or making them into unpowered intermediates in an ICR.

loyatemu

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Which would be pretty tough with all the houses around there so close to the line. Maybe taking a chuck out of Clontarf golf course between Clontarf Road and Killester stations?

that's too close to Fairview to make much difference. If a dart leaves Connolly 9 mins ahead of the Enterprise, the latter will catch up around Raheny.

L1011

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Is there any mention in the fleet plan of what is to be done with the 2700s? Awful shame to have not even mid life units lying idle. I understand that a full refit was priced and was insanely expensive but they should be looking at the idea of adapting them into sets of 4 or 6 for use with 2 power cars, or making them into unpowered intermediates in an ICR.

There is no cheap option - there is basic work required to make them usable in any way

Zebra3

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Which would be pretty tough with all the houses around there so close to the line. Maybe taking a chuck out of Clontarf golf course between Clontarf Road and Killester stations?

I'd say there'd be space on the southern approach to Raheny.

Jamie2k9

Pixel Eater wrote: »

This looks great although won't an hourly service to Belfast would be tough with the planned increased frequency of DART services plus its extension to Drogheda? I see there's a passing loop planned for Clongriffin, even with this and resignaling it will be hard to fit all those services onto a dual track line with so many stations

I'm sure they could squeeze an hourly schedule today if they really needed to and had the fleet but would be wise to wait for passing loops and in future adding an extra track or two along sections.

Seeing 4 track Hazelhatch-Kildare and 3 track Portarlington-Portarlington is great (by 2040) but to facilitate the InterCity southern upgrades planned I would argue that a down payment needs to be done in concert with Heuston-ParkWest to avoid just shifting the congestion point, with shovels in the ground ASAP, by which I mean
(Overall) 3 track from Hazelhatch to Cherryville Jct
(Specifically) definition of whether it is going to be along the current corridor or partially with high speed bypass chords to go around difficult to widen sections like around Sallins and/or Newbridge stations.

Of course on a general level it is depressing to see things which were promised to be done in previous plans and announcements (off the top of my head at least six of the CMATS stations, plus Sixmilebridge loop) and lack of ambition (no Navan passenger)

IMO Sallins and Nass will move towards Dublin slightly and you could have the 4 tracks (2 through platforms, 1 terminating). The only issue is that bridge and the changes involved for putting 4 lines through. Newbridge is tight but again its possible. Protected station buildings might be an obstruction.

It wouldn't be the end of the world if the four had to merge into two lines at Sallins to avoid the bridge issue and then back to 4. The service impact would be zero.

Its hard to see any reroute or tunnel options on the table.

Getting 4 tracks to Sallins would allow them run the type of schedule above.
_____

If people don't follow the WRC pages, Oranmore loop have received funding of €10 million under URDF.

loyatemu

loyatemu wrote: »

that's too close to Fairview to make much difference. If a dart leaves Connolly 9 mins ahead of the Enterprise, the latter will catch up around Raheny.

actually I'm wrong there - the loop at Clongriffen is probably sufficient for working around a 10 minute Dart, but there would need to be a loop further in if the Dart frequency increased.

Ireland trains

Cyclist.ie saying that Jim Meade has said that there will be bike capacity and bike storage on their new fleet of 750 carraiges.
https://mobile.twitter.com/cyclistie/status/1372901257606803457
Not sure how reliable the source is but 750 is a lot more than the previously stated 600 carraiges (even if thr 41 ICR coaches are included)
The tender process started nearly two years ago now and we have yet to see an order placed.

Del.Monte

Was there any consultation with rail users about the design of these new carriages - no need to answer. Personally I wouldn't trust CIE to design a tea trolley much less be involved in ordering vast amounts of new rolling stock given their record when it comes to wasting money. The company is moribund and should be replaced with something fit for the 21st century.

donvito99

Del.Monte wrote: »

Was there any consultation with rail users about the design of these new carriages - no need to answer. Personally I wouldn't trust CIE to design a tea trolley much less be involved in ordering vast amounts of new rolling stock given their record when it comes to wasting money. The company is moribund and should be replaced with something fit for the 21st century.

The 22Ks disprove your point.

If they surveyed the public, they'd only get a diatribe about the Mark IIIs and Park Royals from other professional whingers.

end of the road

there was a lot to learn in relation to comfort from the mkii/iii and park royals in fairness, dispite them being of a different era over all.
seating based on the old seating in those, coupled with the modern features like plug sockets that exist in the 22k and you have yourself an actual inter city train and real high quality regional train befitting of the fares being asked to be paid.
anyway, some people going on about mkii/iiis is not an excuse not to survey the public who will have to use these trains, or be simply lumbered with them if they are aweful to travel on.
not to mention actually have to ultimately pay for them.

Del.Monte

donvito99 wrote: »

The 22Ks disprove your point.

If they surveyed the public, they'd only get a diatribe about the Mark IIIs and Park Royals from other professional whingers.

In what respect do the 22000s disprove my point? Is a professional whinger the opposite of a professional apologist?

donvito99

Del.Monte wrote: »

In what respect do the 22000s disprove my point? Is a professional whinger the opposite of a professional apologist?

Quiet & comfortable. Bright & airy. Reliable.

If we'd surveyed you we'd have ended up with footplates on the lead cars and a guard's van.

What exactly do you expect to come out of a public survey? How does CIE do wrong by procuring what has worked here and everywhere else? Public consultations all too often water down what's being proposed, like any committee based decision.

goingnowhere

I was on the very very last revenue Mk3 (name the trip for bonus points) and then boarded a 22k.

No comparison, night and day.
Seats line up with windows
Air con works
Bright fresh interior
Arm rests which lift up...

Mk3 was a great coach in its time, you would need to rip out the interior and redo the doors as has been done at huge expense in the UK, but you are still stuck with a big noisy and less than reliable 201 on the front.


There has been some consultation on the DART fleet but until the order is signed the finer details remain to be closed out.

end of the road

donvito99 wrote: »

Quiet & comfortable. Bright & airy. Reliable.

and barely able to carry passengers they are so tiny.
not sure they are as quiet these days, last time i was on one before covid it was quite loud compared to normal.
but yes, at least it's not one of the rickity tickety classes like the 29s 28s etc.

donvito99 wrote: »

If we'd surveyed you we'd have ended up with footplates on the lead cars and a guard's van.

you want this to be the case rather then it actually being so in reality.

Del.Monte

donvito99 wrote: »

Quiet & comfortable. Bright & airy. Reliable.

If we'd surveyed you we'd have ended up with footplates on the lead cars and a guard's van.

What exactly do you expect to come out of a public survey? How does CIE do wrong by procuring what has worked here and everywhere else? Public consultations all too often water down what's being proposed, like any committee based decision.

I don't know what your personal experiences of ICRs are but mine - mainly on the Dublin/Rosslare line - is that they are noisy externally (engine noises), internally noisy due their open plan layout, overlit, tiny toilets save for the wheelchair one, poor catering and the trolley, when provided, finds it difficult to pass through due to overcrowding and causes gridlock either side of it for staff and passengers - so, nothing wrong with them at all.



Your point of view reminds me of a phone-in that I participated in on South East Radio regarding the 29000s - the host put my points about them being dirty, cold, noisy and uncomfortable back to me and asked me "apart from that, what's wrong with them?" :rolleyes:

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

I don't know what your personal experiences of ICRs are but mine - mainly on the Dublin/Rosslare line - is that they are noisy externally (engine noises), internally noisy due their open plan layout, overlit, tiny toilets save for the wheelchair one, poor catering and the trolley, when provided, finds it difficult to pass through due to overcrowding and causes gridlock either side of it for staff and passengers - so, nothing wrong with them at all.



Your point of view reminds me of a phone-in that I participated in on South East Radio regarding the 29000s - the host put my points about them being dirty, cold, noisy and uncomfortable back to me and asked me "apart from that, what's wrong with them?" :rolleyes:

all those comments apply to all modern trains.

SeanW

end of the road wrote: »

and barely able to carry passengers they are so tiny.
not sure they are as quiet these days, last time i was on one before covid it was quite loud compared to normal.
but yes, at least it's not one of the rickity tickety classes like the 29s 28s etc.

Not sure what the issue is with the 22000s. Yes, they don't carry a large amount of passengers, they're not designed to. The problem is when they're used on services that they're not suited to - I've been on 3 car 22k trains from M3 Parkway that get into Dublin before 9AM.

They get dangerously overcrowded when you try to do that.

As to noise, unfortunately that's an unavoidable side effect of DMU operation, when you have engines in each car, they're going to make some engine noise. If you want to get rid of all engine noise you'd need to either electrify the line in question and use EMUs, or convert back to loco hauled operation.

Agree re the 29ks, horrible, noisy rattling piles of junk and if you have to stand in the wrong part of the car, the vibrations coming up from the floor can cause serious discomfort.

TheBoyConor

I think an interior and brake refurbishment of the 8200 and 2700 fleets and hauling them with an 071 class is the obvious solution to DMU noise issues.

Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

all those comments apply to all modern trains.

Righty. :rolleyes:

91wx763

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I think an interior and brake refurbishment of the 8200 and 2700 fleets and hauling them with an 071 class is the obvious solution to DMU noise issues.

That's just sh*t stirring.

There are modern DMU or push pull arrangements that are comfortable and efficient but IÉ and a lot of UK operators don't aspire to buying them.

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Righty. :rolleyes:

"they are noisy externally (engine noises), internally noisy due their open plan layout, overlit, tiny toilets save for the wheelchair one, poor catering and the trolley, when provided, finds it difficult to pass through due to overcrowding and causes gridlock either side of it for staff and passengers"

which bit do you disagree with? noisy due to the engines I guess, but it would only be the mk4s don't have them

Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

all those comments apply to all modern trains.

The Translink/NIR/IE Enterprise De Deitrich stock http://briansolomon.com/trackingthelight/2017/08/16/enterprise-on-the-move/ is an example of how inter-city should look like. Tinted windows, ambient lighting etc.etc...i.e proper trains rather than sardine cans. The images on that link are of 1st class, or whatever it's called these days, but the standard class is also top notch and light years ahead of the 22000s. I find the very bright lighting on the ICRs a complete pain and the absolute opposite of ambient



If rail travel becomes slower, more expensive and less comfortable than coach travel there's no future for it save for in urban situations.

monument

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Translink/NIR/IE Enterprise De Deitrich stock http://briansolomon.com/trackingthelight/2017/08/16/enterprise-on-the-move/ is an example of how inter-city should look like. Tinted windows, ambient lighting etc.etc...i.e proper trains rather than sardine cans. The images on that link are of 1st class, or whatever it's called these days, but the standard class is also top notch and light years ahead of the 22000s. I find the very bright lighting on the ICRs a complete pain and the absolute opposite of ambient

If rail travel becomes slower, more expensive and less comfortable than coach travel there's no future for it save for in urban situations.

You couldn't find a photo of an Enterprise 2nd class carriage? As others have said, I'm not sure the 22000s differ that much from other modern trains of their type (ie not premium services or 1st class).

Thinking of the future: I'm not sure of the design outcomes but NS / Nederlandse Spoorwegen at least asked design firms to look at what the future of inside trains might look like: https://www.mecanoo.nl/Projects/project/229/NS-Vision-Interior-Train-of-the-Future

But back to reality: The 22000s are hardly the most comfortable trains, they are fairly bog standard. Maybe we should be looking for more to get people onto trains, but I'm not sure the lighting or seat layout in near the top ten things. I also don't think most people notice the noise of them while inside the trains.

GT89

Isambard wrote: »

all those comments apply to all modern trains.

Not quite I was on a modern train in Italy there a while back and it was very pleasant. Good air con (obviously more nessecary in Italy than Ireland), comfortable, nice interior not too bright, and plenty of space.

This was a non high speed train btw just a bog standard intercity train. I think it may have even been a refurbished set as it looked old on the outside but was very new and modern on inside. Vastly superior to anything Irish Rail have anyway. The only negative about it was the toilets I don't I've ever been on a train anywhere with clean toilets.

Lewis_Benson

I think it's safe to say that there aren't many plans apart from closing parts of the network slowly over time.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

Not quite I was on a modern train in Italy there a while back and it was very pleasant. Good air con (obviously more nessecary in Italy than Ireland), comfortable, nice interior not too bright, and plenty of space.

This was a non high speed train btw just a bog standard intercity train. I think it may have even been a refurbished set as it looked old on the outside but was very new and modern on inside. Vastly superior to anything Irish Rail have anyway. The only negative about it was the toilets I don't I've ever been on a train anywhere with clean toilets.

If you are ever back in Italy, take italo, they are a private company who operate high speed train service in Italy and are seriously nice (the public company Trenitalia operate high speed trains too, but the trains aren't as modern and nice).

Seriously impressive, when I boarded I thought I had mistakenly gotten on the first class carriage, but nope, standard class and it was nicer then any first class train here!

Smooth, fast, quiet and comfortable.

But of course this isn't comparing like for like. Venture off onto regional trains and it quickly turns into a horror story of dirty, overcrowded trains with people literally sitting on top of one another and toilets you dare not enter.

GT89

bk wrote: »

If you are ever back in Italy, take italo, they are a private company who operate high speed train service in Italy and are seriously nice (the public company Trenitalia operate high speed trains too, but the trains aren't as modern and nice).

Seriously impressive, when I boarded I thought I had mistakenly gotten on the first class carriage, but nope, standard class and it was nicer then any first class train here!

Smooth, fast, quiet and comfortable.

But of course this isn't comparing like for like. Venture off onto regional trains and it quickly turns into a horror story of dirty, overcrowded trains with people literally sitting on top of one another and toilets you dare not enter.

I agree about regional trains there all though they have improved since the first time i visited there. I've been on the Italo and it was impressive but I was more talking about the bog standard non high speed intercity trains that run in Italy.

I travelled on a few of them in Italy because they were cheaper than the high speed trains and some of the places I wanted to go weren't served by high speed lines. Even though they weren't high speed they were still better than anything IE have on Intercity routes to offer in terms of comfort and speed.

Many countries with high speed rail still offer standard non high speed intercity trains which are still quite good. This because the high speed networks don't go everywhere and because the fares are generally more expensive on high speed services. This is the standard IE should be going for.