Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

dublinman1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048439#Comment_120048439

Do you have a pic of this proposed purple livery? What is the purple shape on it. I haven't seen it anywhere online yet.

I thought this heavy rail livery would have been in coloured in Orange. So why did the NTA use purple? The original TFI Branding guidelines document from a few years back had put the purple livery for light rail services like Luas and ML.

p_haugh

Well this is a welcome announcement

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/deeply-missed-irish-rail-finally-gets-back-on-board-with-tea-coffee-and-snacks-after-public-outcry-since-covid-cancellation-42342455.html

whisky_galore

Will the people who were shouting and roaring for this actually support it? Or have they even travelled in years?

Markcheese

The trolly service is handy , but it's not a big deal when the journey time is short ,

Get a takeaway coffee at the station before you board and away you go ..

Although I do think there could be so much opportunity for decent catering on board , and not just an overpriced prewrapped long life sandwich..

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247351#Comment_120247351

I can relate to the idea that some people may object to the idea of services on public transport being removed even though they may not use them. They still get to have an opinion on this.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248227#Comment_120248227

afaik, it's coming back on a trial basis, so if it's not worthwhile I guess it'll disappear again so they'll only have themselves to blame.

p_haugh

An update on the catering services, to be starting early April on selected cork-dublin services before being expanded to all cork-dublin services "over the following weeks".

Operator of it is the sister company to the catering provider on the enterprise.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0222/1358120-train-catering/

whisky_galore

I for one welcome the return of bland food and lukewarm tea at airport prices!

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048439#Comment_120048439

Is this the image you are referring to? Looks more like a new Enterprise tbh. Regarding the interior fabric on these new trains it will be the same as all new buses and coaches that are recently been introduced across the country, It will be the TFI standard moquette, bit like the 90s when evrything on buses and the Dart was green, still is on the Dart I know.

Economics101

TFI (aka the customer face of the NTA) putting it uniform brand and design on everything. Operating companies will have no identity with the all-powerful NTA headed by the dreaded Ms Graham.

d51984

I disagree, We have come a hell of a long way in the last few years, Reduced fares, new Hybrid and all electric buses, tons and tons of new services including a lot of local link ones. Bus connects (driver shortages causing a problem I know) new Liffey Valley interchange, 24 hour bus routes. A hell of a lot more coming all over the country not Just Dublin.

The days of Dublin bus, Bus Eireann and Irish rail providing services to suit their employees and not the general public are well and truly gone. I think the new yellow and green bus and coach livery looks fantastic as does the new bus stops with lots of information on them.

New bus routes like the N4 and N6 and the 24 hour ones such as the 15 are bloody fantastic, We just have to start kicking Irish rails asses in to gear now, we are getting there, slowly but surely.

p_haugh

Tender has been published for the replacement of the seat reservation system found in the 22000s, about time!

https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:676235-2022:TEXT:EN:HTML&src=0

end of the road

they now actually need to start enforcing the reservations and things will be grand.

won't hold my breath on that one though.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279437#Comment_120279437

The branding and colour scheme look awful too, like it was designed by the same people who design GAA jerseys.

Geuze

Any chance of adding coaches to the 5:55am ex Limerick, it is packed by the time it gets to Galway.

p_haugh

Once the new ICR carriages start getting brought into service, there'll likely be some reallocation/reorganisation within the IE fleet. Don't know if it would affect the 2800s that much however.

end of the road

the new coaches probably won't effect the 2800s in all honesty.

realistically the ICR fleet being released from the heuston suburban is the only chance of helping the WRC.

i know from personal unfortunate experience that the 2800s are horrid old hulks but unfortunately you are likely stuck with them for a good while yet sadly.

Poxyshamrock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295444#Comment_120295444

I know some of the ICR carriages have arrived but are they waiting until the full order is here to start rejigging the existing formation?

p_haugh

They'll start regigging the existing formation once the new carriages have completed all the required post-delivery tests etc. and are ready for passenger service. I believe the majority of the 41 carriages have been delivered, so they may all be here before they start getting put into service.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939062#Comment_119939062

As I speculated before, new BEMUs ordered are unlikely to replace existing DARTs. IÉ have issued a tender for DART Class 8100 EMU Extended Operation Review;

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/234333/1/0

Once again, they leave the documents open to download;

IE wishes to commission an independent review of DART EMU Class 8100 fleet and to provide guidance or recommendations to support operation to extend the lifespan. IE is the Entity in Charge of Maintenance for this fleet and holds valid certification from SconRail GmBH to this effect.

The fleet of 38 x 2 car steel bodied EMUs were manufactured by LHB in Germany and commenced operation in 1984 on the new 1500vDC OHLE services around Dublin.

The fleet operates in 6 or 8 car coupled formation and accumulates about 120,000km in service per set (annually). The fleet is maintained on a time and distance-based maintenance regime for running maintenance and overhaul at Fairview Depot Dublin and Inchicore Works, Dublin. Bogie overhaul and wheelset overhaul is undertaken in-house at Inchicore Works.

The Class 8100 fleet received a major half-life refurbishment in Germany in 2006-2008. Refurbishment included interior refresh and heavy maintenance and overhaul on doors, bogies, traction motors, couplers, brake system. Some areas of corrosion were attended to but were not significant.

New or enhanced systems included flooring, laminated glass, seat material (and improved Cat1b BS Fire certification), PIS, CCTV, OTDR event recorder and sanding. In addition, the original GEC Alsthom traction equipment was completely replaced with a modern Siemens Chopper control traction system. Window frames were completely replaced, and body apertures repaired as necessary when window frames were removed.

In 2022 the original Servotrol brake system control distributor was replaced on all vehicles by a retrofit replacement with a modern electronic BECU(I2RV model) from the OEM Faiveley Transport. The refurbishment was deemed to require approval from the National Safety Authority under their NRSA Guidelines for the fleet to enter service. In April 2007 the RSC (now CRR) issued a certificate of acceptance for passenger service with certain listed conditions. One condition was that the vehicle life would be 40 years. Recent review of files suggests that the RSC placed this condition on the basis that the expected life was contained in internal IE documents supporting the project. However, there were several life expectancies (design life) set out in the project document and it was not expected that they would result in a service limitation.

The fleet is required to remain in service for up to 12 more years or 2034. A number of trains have recently suffered from limited bodyside corrosion under the cab door above the solebar section. These are being repaired currently.

The independent party will also be asked to provide support to IE to seek approval from the CRR for this life extension. 

Is getting 12 more years out of them realistic? They will have a huge fleet between extending usage of these and the new rolling stock ordered.

L1011

EMUs can easily last that long; but examples that old have rarely run along the sea for their entire life.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296003#Comment_120296003

OK, if the 2800s won't be affected, might any of the ICR services from Galway to Dublin be made longer?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299737#Comment_120299737

i would hope so, they certainly need to be.

but this is irish rail and managing capacity isn't their strong point so god knows.

time will tell, wait and see ETC.

DumbBrunette

https://dublininquirer.com/2023/03/01/to-cut-fuel-use-and-pollution-irish-rail-adds-new-transmissions-and-batteries-to-its-trains

Good article here from the Dublin Inquirer on new fuel efficiency trials on the 22000 intercity fleet.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299737#Comment_120299737

Unlikely until the sets are strengthened with the new intermediate cars that are currently being delivered. They are unlikely to enter service until late this year.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120300611#Comment_120300611

Quite an interesting read!

I wonder if they could purchase a set of hybrid power cars if they plan to keep the Enterprise and Cork CAF MK4 fleets in service for a while yet?

Or will it just all be replaced ?

LXFlyer

I suspect they will both be replaced in due course.

The Enterprise is really getting on at this stage - 26 years old, but had a refurb. The MK4 coaches is only around 18 years old, but their locomotives are close to 30 years old at this stage and can't be remotely as CO2 efficient as modern stuff.

I'd be curious to see if there's a CO2 emissions or litres of diesel per passenger km for the 22000s, the Enterprise and the MK4.

I'd be very surprised if the railcars aren't drastically more fuel efficient than the old 201 locomotives hauling or pushing heavy coaches and a generator van.

With the engine upgrades on the 22000s they must be in a totally different league to the old locomotive trains in terms of emissions.

You could probably get another 20 years out of the MK4s with a refurb and a small fleet of efficient hybrid power cars to top and tail them. The Enterprise coaches have to have at least another decade in them before they get scrapped.

end of the road

to be honest i would guarantee it that the 22000s especially with the engine upgrades beat the 201s in terms of emitions by a good amount.

Glaceon

Bear in mind too that the 201s (and 071s) have two stroke engines. So that could make the fuel economy and emissions even worse.

In general those old locomotive engines are pretty primitive beasts from what little I know of them. They seemed to just mostly be about being physically enormous rather than particularly sophisticated.

Glaceon

Yes the 710 engine (as in the 201s) is more or less an enlarged version of the 645 and 567 engines, the latter has its roots back to the 1930s.

I knew they were fairly clunky, but I didn't realise the design was quite that old!

It would seem like there's a lot of opportunity for improvement, especially when you consider what can be done with modern electronics and electrical systems in terms of managing every aspect of an engine, and combining it with hybrid drives, not to mention chemistry based emissions reduction technologies.

Glaceon

The GM/EMD engines were built mainly with simplicity and reliability in mind and this had been their selling point for many years. A quote going around from GM was that their competitors' four stroke engines used one stroke to do the work and the other three to fall apart. But even they had to go four stroke with the EMD 1010 engine in recent years as they couldn't get the 710 to meet modern regulations.

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120321261#Comment_120321261

The 710 was able to manage US EPA Tier 3 - some of Toronto GO Transit’s MotivePower units managed to get that certification - but not Tier 4. Most passenger outfits have moved to higher speed (1500-1800 rpm) four stroke - even EMD themselves used Caterpillar power to build the F125s, and GO Transit’s MotivePower Tier 4s use 2 x Cummins QSK60.

I have wondered if a 201 could fit a Cummins QSK60 or an MTU 4000, given HEP is being taken care of off-loco. I think Irish Rail did some kind of RFI for a repower a few years back. But how much fatigue life is left in them? Might be better to just conserve the best 710-engined 201s for freight and get new passenger optimized locos wired for ETCS and with AC motors, or just go all in on D/E/BMUs.

SeanW

Realistically I suspect that IE/NIR are just going to go all in with MUs or entire trainsets rather than continuing to replace coaches and locomotives in turn. The insane debacle surrounding the scrapping of perfectly good Mk3 cars during a capacity shortage would seem to indicate where they're going.

nigra

Has there been a stall put on the Oranmore station new passing loop development? I read that funding had been secured and works were due to start last autumn, but nada as of yet.

God knows the service could do with the new loop given the number of people on the trains into Galway at the moment...

loyatemu

IR previewing the new Dart carriages. 2 questions I'd have

1. If there's someone sitting opposite you, will they have their knee jammed into your groin?
2. How long will the Passenger Information System last before it's permanently turned off - a year, 18 months?

https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/1640975071446548480?s=20

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414309#Comment_120414309

I think the new trains look great.

I doubt they'll be on track for 2025 though (No pun intended) given they're still at the prototyping stage.

It's a great investment! The original 8100/8300 units are 40 years old this year, they've been great

The 85** series are 20+ years old (hard to believe they're at that age!)

I'd love to see the technical specification on the new Darts

loyatemu

The original 8100/8300 units are 40 years old this year, they've been great

they've applied for permission to keep them running for another few years

tech specs for the new ones are probably on Alstom's website somewhere - they're based on the Xtrapolis model.

Citizen Six

Where are they going to store these trains in the short term? They say they are due to start arriving next year. Inchicore?

L1011

Inchicore almost definitely, they'd end up there for commissioning anyway I imagine.

Although there's quite a lot hanging around there already - 8200s, 2700s, the new 29000 intermediate cars, beached 201 class locos etc etc; there is still a fair bit of space

Could be used as an excuse to take the cutting torch to some of the no hopers like the 2700s and non push-pull 201s also.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417882#Comment_120417882

Inchicore is fairly rammed with the intermediates for the 29s, apart from the ones out on test or down at Heuston. And the number of trains due from Alstom is a lot higher, right?

They'd have to get rid of the 8200 and 2700 cars that are just taking up space at this stage. A lot of them aren't even on rails at the moment.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416131#Comment_120416131

I wonder if they are a variation of the X'Trapolis 2.0 trains for Melbourne? Those ones will also run on 1500 DC AND use the same 1600mm track gauge as Ireland. The Melbourne carriages are much longer at almost 24.4m. The Irish ones look to be about 16m each, several metres less than the current DART stock however I see that the Melbourne X'Trapolis 2.0 trains will be just over 3m wide (9 ft 11 5⁄16" in old money).....hopefully Irish Rail will stay with this width so as to increase capacity as much as possible. c. 3m width combined with a length of just 16m would be still well within the Irish loading gauge. The Park Royals of the past were almost 18.75m long and almost 3.1m wide.

Hopefully common sense prevails and Irish Rail have not requested a narrowed down variant for no particular reason......unless there's some reason that I am not aware that would inhibit the use of 16x3m carriages on the Irish rail network when 18.75x3.1m is permitted right now?

AngryLips

Does the shorter carriages mean narrower gaps at stations situated on a rail curve such as Tara and Connolly? And will the extended floor ramps work at those stations?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417882#Comment_120417882

to be honest one would think that they should have already done this, at least with the 2700s and 8200s.

it's obvious none of them will ever run again so why the wait?

i can understand with the 201s as they are in the sound barrier i believe but the rest?

loyatemu

I'd have though the 22K intermediate cars should be out and in use by the time the new Darts start to arrive. Presumably between Inchicore, Clontarf, Bray, Drogheda there's space for the initial batch while the new depot is being built.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422348#Comment_120422348

It'd make more sense to keep them in the one location while commissioning surely. Maybe Bray a good idea if they can secure it better. And there is talk of a new depot going out there.

L1011

There's nowhere near enough space in Bray to have everything there for any time at all. There's two sidings but one would be required for normal operation.

The new depot is planned for between Maynooth and Kilcock, but these will arrive before that even has planning permission quite likely.