Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434841#Comment_121434841

Why should you have to? There are a large number of people in railway facilities and it makes sense to collect the rubbish there rather than have thousands of people carrying it around

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440374#Comment_121440374

Because other people shouldn't have to sit at a table with rubbish at it, just because you can't be bothered putting it in a bin at the end of the carriage.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441228#Comment_121441228

I remember the last time i got the train, when we arrived in Hueston, gathering all my rubbish, taking it with me, and i passed the person clearing the train, and asking could i put my rubbish in his plastic rubbish bag, he seemed to find it stange that someone would clear out their own rubbish.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441556#Comment_121441556

The cleaners do a decent job, but they don't clean after every service, as there's often tight turnaround times, and they can't clean during a service when people get off mid route and leave their mess behind.

Ireland trains

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41300101.html

45.5m journeys last year, 12.5m intercity (96% of pre-covid), 19.7m DART (91%), and 13.3m commuter (86%).

Also mentioned is that new dart carriages are to begin arriving from this summer, redevelopment of Galway Ceannt is to begin this month, and the passing loop at Oranmore is to go to planning soon. Different articles focus on projects in their county, does anyone have a link to the original press release.

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/galway-allocated-e62-5-million-for-major-infrastructure-projects/?amp

How has it taken almost 3 years to get to submitting a railway order.

There’s also no mention of the Limerick-Limerick Junction double tracking proposal.

smackyB

Interesting talk that was uploaded last year but I only came across it recently, apologies if it was posted in this thread already.

https://youtu.be/JCK8teu2ry8?si=I34xDVgnHnCSQrnX

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569014#Comment_121569014

I watched that last year. Good talk. Made me worried when he said we are kind of leading the way in terms of trying out hybrid battery electric trains. Not sure that's a good thing.

Ireland trains

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/debateRecord/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications/2024-01-24/debate/mul%40/main.pdf

Updates provided by IÉ to transport committee last Wednesday

DART 

SW RO imminent 

Fleet design allows for toilets if required 

All fleet on order for expansion, first will arrive Q2 2024

90% of pre-COVID passenger numbers

Freight 

Procurement process for a new freight fleet nearly complete

Envisage freight only north of Claremorris

Reconnect the Port of Cork 

Of potential freight demand, Jim Meade said “A supplier in the west is anxious to move two trains a week, as soon as we get it open, from the west to Foynes Port”, and also that “there is a large organisation in the mid-west which has asked us to please put its containers on our train”

Foynes complete late 25/early 26.

North

Project fourNorth for quad tracking northern line

Hourly enterprise from September to Belfast Grand Central

New Enterprise fleet of 8 trains business case submitted> contract late 25> new fleet in 2029.

Other

Airport spur could be completed in 5 years

New ICR carriages due for CRR Approval mid-Feb, will be for intercity routes (with demand exceeding pre-COVID across the board), as opposed to the original plan for commuter routes (demand recovered to 95-98%).

Appointing a design team for Navan line> late 25 for business case> RO in 26> 3-4 years of construction.

NTCC to open Q3 2025.

Intercity above pre-pandemic “We are particularly seeing that in the west of Ireland on the Galway, Sligo and Westport routes”

No funding for WRC rehabilitation.

Plan to lengthen platforms at Sixmilebridge, Craughwell, Ardrahan, and one of Gort’s, 2-3 years as “we are full all the time on the route”-Jim Meade

Limerick-Lim Jn study still underway.

Limerick-Ennis study due Sep/Oct.

Temporary platforms and service could be put in place for Ryder Cup.

Cork electrification decision not yet made, costed and will be done by 2030.

Within 3 months of moving to a half-hourly service on the Cobh-Midleton route, it had grown by 40%.

Barrow Bridge to be repaired and automated.

Move to North Quay station in Q2 2026.

highdef

I've tried searching online for some technical specifications of the new DART trains but have not found anything to date. Anyone know of a resource where I could find some specs?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706491#Comment_121706491

Is this real projects or just more hopes and dreams stuff ?

I keep being told different stories on whether that Ryder Cup thing and the Dublin airport thing can or can't be done.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706863#Comment_121706863

Airport - Irish Rails hopes and dreams. It is not a DoT project, it is not funded.

Ryder Cup - the line will be back in place for freight by then, the ability to do something temporary will be down to funding and also CRR approval. It might happen, more chance than the airport spur.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706890#Comment_121706890

"A lot of people" are going to be very disappointed when that line opens and it's only for freight. I know people from West Limerick who only follow the story from a vague "line being built" point of view and don't understand that it doesn't automatically mean passengers.

It will be interesting to see what kind of political drive both real and bonkers gets behind passenger services.

end of the road

"Envisage freight only north of Claremorris"

what does this mean given "No funding for WRC rehabilitation"

ballina branch seems to have healthy numbers so is hardly going to go freight only.

as for the hourly enterprise, i am still not seeing how this is going to happen given the issues with the DD stock, and the fact that it will mean capacity losses elsewhere on the IE network, which, even with the 41 cars, still has capacity issues due to the suburban network being backfilled due to it's own capacity issues.

NIR might be able to spare a couple of units but can they do that on a daily basis long term?

they should really wait for the new trains and then launch the whole lot, new stock, new service frequency, big bang.

but no there will be capacity cuts again and it will be launched this year of course.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706491#Comment_121706491

Wait, are you saying the Dart+ fleet allow for retrofit of toilets? I can't feasible see that happening.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121707483#Comment_121707483

No I imagine that they’re saying that later orders could be with toilets for use on longer services - remember this is a multiple order programme of fleet replacement.

LXFlyer

An airport spur would only become an option if the ongoing EU funded four tracking feasibility assessment study reports in favour of implementing four track expansion along the Northern Line.

That would change the landscape.

But again we shall have to wait and see what the study reports in due course.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121707608#Comment_121707608

I've said it before, you won't get four tracks in without insane expense. Stick three tracks in and it'll be a lot easier, and cheaper.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121708248#Comment_121708248

Well let us wait and see what the engineering feasibility study says.

I'd rather wait for a full professional assessment of this before making any pronouncement.

spacetweek

Good to hear the DartSW RO is imminent. It was submitted last March.

The report says DART+West RO is also imminent.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121708337#Comment_121708337

The railway moves much too slowly. 😂

Markcheese

When they say re-,connecting cork port - do they mean reconnecting to the north docks - which is scheduled to close and re-,developed or re-connecting to marino point - which is planned to be a bulk terminal ,

Theres no way of connecting the new container port at monkstown

goingnowhere

Marino Point

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718002#Comment_121718002

So fertilizer and feed only then , is there much demand for bulk to be moved by rail ?

dowlingm

I have to agree with CitizenSix - it will take a mint of money to get the fourth track, plus the construction disruption. A third is doable without too much land take , but for four through each station you need a second overbridge minimum (track either side of existing platforms), or you move a platform to create an express track or tracks in which case you’re reconstructing the overbridge that’s there. But if there is a big shove on to get the airport train maybe there is a mint to be had, we’ll see

interesting that he thinks Adare worth discussing when some thought it was impossible - still leaves himself an out for CRR to say no but it feels like he’s sticking his neck out.

presumably the mid west container customer is in Raheen - who are the big players there these days? I thought Dell’s production was gone to Poland? and send it where - Dublin Port or Belview?

As for freight north of Claremorris, I read that they are not seeking out freight business elsewhere in the country at present - that’s where it’s all coming from now anyway. There may be a distinction where the “mid west” customer came to them, and if it’s someone in Raheen then there is some synergy in that Limerick is where wagon repair happens at the moment anyway, so wagon swaps could be done at the other end to get wagons due for service over to Limerick.

I do wonder who’s going to be sending what from Mayo through Foynes, and how well it’s going to work with running around freights in (presumably) both Athlone West and Limerick Yard if an increase in Dublin-Galway service is also anticipated.

Jamie2k9

Wouldn't suprise me if the hourly Galway comes at the expense of Westport. Keep a direct daily return like the Tralee branch. Probably adding 3-4 extra services rather than 6-7. Hard to see them keeping both and filling such capacity. It didn't work on Cork so why would Galway be different.

Look how well received the extra connecting evening service was received by political reps recently. Question is will they be as happy if this change happened.

dowlingm

@Jamie2k9 given the capacity constraints Athlone-Portarlington and Athlone-Mullingar handed over to the bike crowd, where do you see the Mayo shuttle terminating? Seems hard to believe the Shannon bridge and Athlone Station as currently configured isn’t a serious pinch point - more constrained than Mallow, but reinstating Athlone West may not be welcomed even if it is rebuilt as a substantial facility with a decent waiting area.

bk

But if there is a big shove on to get the airport train maybe there is a mint to be had, we’ll see

If quad tracking justifies itself on its own then fair enough, but I don’t think getting to the airport should be the driving justification for quad tracking.

I don’t see where the demand will come from once Metrolink is built. It would be much faster getting to the airport from the city than DART would be.

dowlingm

Metrolink might be faster but from the same catchment? Assuming it’s operated as a DART branch and not some notions branded link, then you’re coming from Howth or down from Malahide/Balbriggan you could just transfer at Howth Junction. It would also provide some relief to Metrolink in the event of maintenance or incident.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121725842#Comment_121725842

Well you could extend Metrolink north of Swords to Rush and Lusk, to allow integration with the Northern line there. Passengers could change from intercity and DART for the airport there.

Much cheaper to just reuse the Metrolink station at the airport like this, then needing to build a second underground station at the airport for DART.

Also has the benefit of opening up a massive amount of land north of Swords for development. Something that isn’t possible via a Clongriffin connection due to that route being under the airport flight path.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724300#Comment_121724300

Athlone which has 3 platforms. I don't think they will go back to splitting trains like they did before when they axed 08:05 Heuston/Westport. Never an issue goning west but could cause problemes going east when joining them.

SeanW

I don't know if Mayo shuttles from Athlone would work, because of the further split between Westport and Ballina services at Manulla Junction. While a one-change for Westport is something one might get away with, having a situation where someone travelling between Dublin and Ballina has to change twice (once at Athlone and again at Manulla) would put that branch into "F it, I'll just take the bus" territory. And considering that the Heuston area likely isn't people's final destination anyway in a lot of cases, realistically it would be at least 3 changes.

Realistically I think they'd have to start running trains directly from both Ballina and Westport to Athlone.

I also agree with the plan to build a spur from the DART line to Dublin airport. Even with just the coastal DART, it makes a one-seat ride from much of Dublin to the airport and if Dart Underground were ever built, it would make the airport accessible by one seat ride by train from points as far away as Heuston and the Hazelhatch line.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741572#Comment_121741572

I also agree with the plan to build a spur from the DART line to Dublin airport. Even with just the coastal DART, it makes a one-seat ride from much of Dublin to the airport and if Dart Underground were ever built, it would make the airport accessible by one seat ride by train from points as far away as Heuston and the Hazelhatch line.

But that doesn’t seem to be what Irish Rail are suggesting. The “cheap” and “easy” connection that IR are suggesting would be a shuttle from Howth to the Airport, which would thus necessitate a transfer at Clongriffin.

You would be faster getting to the airport by transferring to Metrolink at Tara, then staying on to Clongriffin and then transferring to the Airport DART shuttle.

Or again coming from the West, transferring to Metrolink at Glasnevin. Even once DU built, you’d still probably be faster to transfer to Metrolink then going all the way over to the Docklands area and then up to Clongriffin to transfer to the Airport shuttle.

The only way to do what you suggest is to quad track the Northern line, which obviously would be a major project and very expensive. Fair enough if they decide to do quad tracking anyway, but with Metrolink in place, there isn’t much advantage to going to the airport.

Now that I think of it, how would you even route the services? How would you split trains coming from the south going to the airport versus Howth versus north of Clongriffin? Every third train goes to the airport? Would you wait thirty minutes for a train going to the airport, versus just getting the next DART to Tara St and then transferring on a Metrolink that comes every 90 seconds!

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741572#Comment_121741572

Perhaps not however this part of the line is a small % of passenger’s. I don’t think the bus would win out over 2 changes unless there was a private express service.

Many Ennis services require 2 changes and its likely more people travel to Heuston from there compared to Foxford/Ballina on an average day.

The 2 changes is also in place for some services to Ballina.

bikeman1

My thought on how you get the airport spur into the two tracks.

You will have Dart North which will be combining both the current Malahide DART service plus the Northern Commuter services. These run every 15 minutes out to Drogheda all stations.

Then a DART out to the Airport every 15 minutes. At Howth Junction connection into and out of the Airport DART.

This gives a 7.5 minute headway to Clongriffin, 15 minutes to Howth, Malahide and Drogheda.

Belfast services hourly, following out the Airport DART, stop at Clongriffin, which then overtake at Skerries / or Donabate, new long loops as required where land allows for overtaking to take place both ways.

Peak extensions to Dundalk.

Ideally, 3 or 4 tracks to Clongriffin would be ideal but a huge cost if even possible.

Having both a DART to the airport would allow for the whole southside of Dublin along the DART through to the North East of the city to be directly connected with the airport, with parts of the city (especially Clontarf to Donaghmede) that don’t have an airport connection.

Then Irish Rail can have a win for city centre journeys to the airport, connecting also with Belfast and Sligo directly.

The loop line is the constraint as always but something will have to be worked out there.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742640#Comment_121742640

I don’t believe what you are suggesting here is possible with just the current two tracks, it would require quad tracking.

The service pattern you are suggesting is a DART every 5 minutes, they currently struggle with one every ten minutes! It would be 12 darts PHPD.

The DART+ North projects goal is for just a maximum of 9 DARTs PHPD on the Connolly to Clongriffin section (plus 2 Commuter and 1 Enterprise). So your service pattern I don’t think is possible with two tracks.

Also I’d suggest that a DART to Drogheda every 15 minutes would be too little, DART+ North is aiming for a 12 minute frequency and frankly in the long term I’d suggest we will probably end up needing 10 minute frequency given how popular this is likely to be.

That is kind of the problem with this whole idea, you are taking service away from the greater need, just to save people from needing to change (but likely an overall longer journey time) to get to the airport!

And even then, are people really going to wait for up to 15 minutes for a direct to airport DART, instead of just jumping on the next dart and transferring to a 90 second Metrolink at Tara for a likely overall faster journey time!

Honestly I just don’t see it, it is marginal improvement if that. I certainly wouldn’t say never, perhaps Metrolink is such a success, that it is overcapacity and this might help take some pressure off, but it would certainly require quad tracking.

Glaceon

I feel very much like "I'll believe it when I see it" about Metrolink.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745579#Comment_121745579

well you could say that about any of these infrastructure projects, including DART+

At least Metrolink is a funded project, with a project team, has been designed and its railway order is currently making its way through ABP. BTW ABP oral hearings begin next week, which is another big step.

Of course no guarantee, but then this idea of a Clongriffin to Airport link is much less likely. The idea isn’t supported by government, a report was done into it and it was rejected, it isn’t part of the NDP up to 2042.

LXFlyer

Expanding the tracks along the Northern Line is currently the subject of an EU funded feasibility study.

I think you can be pretty sure that EU funds would be a major part of any resulting capital investment project and that it would be pushed as part of the peace dividend on the island of Ireland as the Enterprise would be the main beneficiary along with outer suburban trains.

But we will have to wait and see what results from the feasibility study.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745774#Comment_121745774

Yes, I’m really looking forward to see the results of this report. Hopefully it will give us a better view of what is possible, different options, costs, etc.

Im not sure it would mean that the EU would fund it though, actual construction I mean, what with Brexit, etc. but perhaps they would make an exception in this case as you say, peace dividends and all that. Certainly if the EU were funding it, then I’d most likely drop any concerns I have about it, quad or triple tracking that is.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745833#Comment_121745833

I suspect that would be the card that the NI Executive and Irish government would be playing but we shall see.

I wouldn’t be concerned too much about Brexit - given the special circumstances that NI finds itself in, I’m sure that arms could be twisted!

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121725190#Comment_121725190

If the Northern Line was Quad then you could run express services to Connolly or via DART Underground (if it ever exists). There won't be very many people from the airport getting off in Ballymun or Glasnevin.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121746361#Comment_121746361

Shure don't we all know that Norn Iron is a "temporary little arrangement" 😯 😉

Pete_Cavan

Even if quad-tracking the Northern Line were to happen (unlikely), the level of service suggested here isn't going to be possible with an airport spur. Having trains crossing the tracks will limit frequency and create operational difficulties. If anything, a spur would undermine investment in additional tracks.

If a spur from Clongriffin is required, it could be done as light rail at much lower cost. Could make it the same system as Metrolink to utilise it's control centre, maintenance facilities, etc. Even a more basic people mover would probably suffice.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759550#Comment_121759550

Any Airport spur at Clongriffin would surely have a flyover junction in the Up (city-bound) direction, so no conflicts. Totally routine, but maybe beyond the imagination of those who decide transport policy in Ireland.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759585#Comment_121759585

What sort of radius would be required to allow a heavy rail train make that turn? Could add 1km of track, much of it elevated, and a wide bridge. If you wanted trains coming from further north to use the spur, you'd need another such loop. The cost of such a spur would be huge.

Anyone using DART from south of Tara Street will be able to change to Metrolink to reach the airport. If Metrolink was extended north to meet the Northern Line, that would facilitate most passengers from further north.

I know people have fantansies about intercity trains using a tunnel to go directly to the airport but I doubt intercity trains would be allowed near such a tunnel, if ever built. It needs to be used for high frequency DART services which would slow any other trains. Changing to Metrolink with it's direct routing would likely be fast than heavy rail via Clongriffin.

There would be no business case for building the spur in the most expensive way possible.

bikeman1

Pop over to Germany and you’ll see many heavy rail flyovers and underpasses all over the main cities. ICEs and Regional trains flying around the place in the middle of cities. This would be easily achieved out at Clongriffin.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759989#Comment_121759989

Not without quadtracking the northern line to Clongriffin which will be massively expensive, not to mention political gelignite.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748460#Comment_121748460

A Dart Spur to Connolly will always be slower than a Metrolink -> Glasnevin and Dart to wherever you want to go. Hell you could concieveably have a limited amount of Cork services servicing Glasnevin when ML is complete. This could never happen with a heavy rail spur to the Airport due to there being no direct connection between the Northern line and the GSWR without reversing out of Connolly.

A rail spur from Clongriffin is not cheap if it's to be done properly. Quadtracking alone will set the project into the billions. Not to mention if you are going down this route you likely want to build the direct connection between it and GSWR for it to make any sense.

spacetweek

The more I think about a DART spur the less good an idea it seems.

If you are coming from DART West or DART Southwest, change to Metrolink at Glasnevin.

If you are south of Tara St DART or north about as far as Killester, get the DART to Tara St and change to Metrolink.

(Since it's likely Metrolink will be extended to Donabate) If you're near Donabate DART station, get the DART to Donabate and change to Metrolink.

So the spur would only be useful for people living between Killester and Portmarnock! Why are we even talking about this?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759989#Comment_121759989

The existence of heavy rail flyovers/underpasses elsewhere is irrelevant. In this case, it involves connecting to a perpendicular line, which would require a large radius loop to allow trains make the turn. If you want connections in both directions (i.e. south towards Dublin and north from Drogheda/Belfast), you need two such loops. The cost of this would be significant.

As already pointed out, the spur really won't serve that many people once Metrolink and DART+ are complete. You could get the same benefit at a fraction of the cost with light rail (the cost of creating a 160m heavy rail station anywhere near the terminals would be enormous, as well as the approach). Light rail would be much easier, it could cross roads at grade and even use roadspace. Once alternatives are considered, there will be no business case for a heavy rail spur.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748460#Comment_121748460

Sure, if we spend 10 Billion+ on DART Underground and Quad tracking, then it might work. But it certainly doesn't work as the cheap and easy option that some make it out to be, which is the point I've been making.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760646#Comment_121760646

If you used Metrolink trains, not only are they much smaller, but you could just reuse the Metrolink station in the airport, it would make it all much cheaper.

It could also be the start of Metro West. Of course then the conversation would be if a Metrolink spur via Clongriffin makes more sense or Donabate or Rush+Lusk. You'd need to run a study to compare the options.

I'd kind of feel like either Donabate or R+L would make more sense and then leave the Clongriffin corridor reserved for future use, either by Metro or heavy rail if the Metrolink ends up overcapacity.