Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760316#Comment_121760316

This is what I struggle with too. I really don't see the logic of it with Metrolink in place.

But the idea keeps being brought up by the CEO of Irish Rail and is was included in the All Island Rail Review!

So I try and understand why it might make sense, but struggle to see it. Sure, it might be nice to have, but hardly a priority.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761290#Comment_121761290

The problem is that Metrolink is likely to be so expensive that is will pre-empt funding for almost everything else in the Dublin area, including making much better use of existing assets.

Markcheese

Quad tracking is likely to be ridiculously expensive and seriously disruptive , and then you've still got to go cross country to dublin airport ..

There is a surprising amount of green space between Heuston station/ phoenix park and Dublin airport - its 10 km as the crow flys , so prob 12 ish km of a route way , with a mix of at grade ,cut and cover and viaducts . So also bonkers expensive. And not much use to the areas it cuts through..

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761507#Comment_121761507

How expensive and disruptive? Compared to Metrolink, say. I know you have to look at the benefits as well as the costs.

And the cross-country bit from Clongriffin to the airport should be no problem: its over ground which is so noisy form approaching aircraft that it is pretty useless for anything else.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761507#Comment_121761507

Re the northern line, I’m going to sound like a broken record here, but perhaps would it not be better to wait and see what the results of the ongoing EU funded feasibility study into possible Northern Line expansion actually says before making such pronouncements?

It’s getting a bit tiring reading all of these pronouncements here while there is a professional engineering study being carried out which will give us a definitive answer.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761335#Comment_121761335

DART+ and BusConnects also seem to be proceeding alongside Metrolink just fine. And both of them are very much using existing assets.

In fact Dart+ very much hinges on Metrolink also being in place and the interchanges at Glasnevin and Tara St to really work well and to get the maximum benefit from these heavy rail lines.

So what existing assets do you mean? Obviously DART Underground doesn’t exist, nor does a spur to the airport. Quad tracking might as well be a major new project given how disruptive it will be. Though as LX says, perhaps other options like triple tracking etc. will be possible, we will have to wait and see.

Of course non of these will connect Swords to the city, the 5th largest urban area in Ireland, a commuter town of Dublin, with plans for it to grow to 100,000 people.

Metrolink has to be built, nothing else makes sense.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761823#Comment_121761823

Nobody is arguing about the 2.2km of rail to the airport, its the capacity improvements needed on the mainline to make this at all worth while. Quadtracking it at a minimum, and then already you're looking at a project which is likely to be even more expensive than Metrolink will be.

end of the road

extra tracking for the northern line is unavoidable, airport spur or no airport spur.

how and where and how much will have to be worked out but done it is going to have to be.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763664#Comment_121763664

Are you saying that an extra 2 tracks for about 10km on the Northern line (even with land acquisition and housing replacement costs) will cost more than a much longer partly underground Metrolink, with some very complicated underground stations? Metrolink's estimated costs are in the region of €10billion, and I would take that with the same level of credibility as applies to the cost estimates for the children's hospital.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763664#Comment_121763664

With due respect, you cannot possibly know that.

There is significant EU funding going into a study to examine the feasibility of capacity expansion on the Northern Line.

Posting throwaway comments such as the last one above is just daft to be honest - you cannot possibly come to any conclusion before we see the options that might be available, and any potential EU contributions that might be available as well.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764035#Comment_121764035

We have a long history of delivering transport projects on time and on budget. There is no reason to equate any transport project with the NCH shít show.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764035#Comment_121764035

and for that, i'm going to call it, we will get something that is under capacity quite quickly.

never mind though, at the moment it's happening so it's water under the bridge now.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764295#Comment_121764295

Yes I agree, at least as far as Roads and Transport Infrastructure Ireland are concerned. However TII has responsibility for just Road and Luas (and there is nothing actually underway i.e. approved and ready for contract, as far as LUAS is concerned. That leaves Haevy Rail and Metrolink. The former seems to be subject to the NTA, and the latter seems to be fairly stand alone, but with general policy approval from the NTA. Of course the Dept of Public Expenditure has to approve of almost every significant project.

If I have this reasonably correct, it as a bit of a dog's dinner. If TII have the skillset for large complex road projects (like Dunkettle) then they could build on this and do project management for Metrolink, and heavy rail. While TII has a lot of civil engineering expertise, for rail projects they would need to acquire skills on the electrification side of things.

What skills do the NTA have?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764468#Comment_121764468

65 meter Metro at 90 second frequency is 2.4 times more capacity of a DART every 10 minutes. It will be plenty of capacity.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766243#Comment_121766243

But do we think it will be a 90 second frequency.

Given the same frequency, the DART would have more capacity.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766277#Comment_121766277

90 second frequency is implausible on heavy rail

Its even more implausible on a spur.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766281#Comment_121766281

Maybe, but ThamesLink manages 24 tph in the core sections at peak times, which is every 150 seconds...

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766277#Comment_121766277

Metrolink is being designed to a 90 second frequency. It is in the design docs.

Now it likely won't open to that frequency, most likely 3 minutes, but it is being specced for that.

DART absolutely can't do that frequency, it can only be done with fully automated systems. Which is why Metrolink is being designed for fully automation, like Copenhagen.

DART could maybe do 5 minutes, perhaps at a stretch even 3 minutes (but not on a branch line obviously). At 5 minutes, Metrolink would still have 1.2 times the capacity, at 3 minutes frequency, yes DART would beat it with 20% more capacity.

However the cost of doing that would be a lot more then using Metro, much bigger stations for 180 meter DART's , etc.

This is why these sort of fully automated Metro systems have become so popular for new builds in mid sized European cities. They give you relatively very high capacity at a lower cost then with a traditional heavy rail system. Yes, heavy rail can potentially beat the capacity, but at much higher cost and arguably mid sized European cities don't need quiet that high capacity. The likes of London, Paris, etc. of course need it, but not the likes of Dublin, Copenhagen, etc.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766342#Comment_121766342

The Thameslink core is under a completely automated signalling system where drivers just open/close doors and do not drive the trains.

Hardly comparable with the rest of the network which has completely different signalling.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766243#Comment_121766243

plenty of capacity at first perhapse.

going forward i'm not quite so convinced due to it's definite success and growth going forward.

as i said it's water under the bridge now as it's what we are getting but i can hear complaints along the lines of the luas overcrowding issues.

AngryLips

Let's not forget that the Luas was promised as being operational at 3 minute headways but, despite being at capacity most of the day, it's still operating with gaps of up to 10 minutes for a large chunk of the day/week.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768220#Comment_121768220

It was never suggested that it would operate at 3 minute headways outside of peak times.

Cookiemunster

And, unlike Luas, Metrolink won't be sharing space with motor traffic and pedestrians.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768280#Comment_121768280

I don't think it achieves that during peak. Fact is, the luas is often packed, it has the ability to add additional capacity yet that capacity is not forthcoming.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769736#Comment_121769736

It does during the morning peak between Sandyford and Parnell on the Green Line.

None of this has anything to do with Irish Rail infrastructure in any case.

bk

Luas has nothing to do with Metrolink, Metro will be fully automated, fully grade separated and large sections of underground. High frequency is very achievable and very much a feature of these type of systems.

Poxyshamrock

First new ICR carriages entered service this morning.

Jamie2k9

Small dusting of snow and whole operation falls apart.

Some disruption is expected but this is really poor from them.

road_high

I see the new ticketing system is working swimmingly…not. Both at entry and exit to Heuston the E ticket wouldn’t scan. Show it to staff- slowing everything down in the process. Asked second guy on gates are any of the readers working for E tickets answered wryly “one or two of them work”.

bk

Yeah, I tried using them last week, weren’t working and the staff were just waving people through without looking at them.

Also if you are travelling as a family with multiple tickets, the ordering of the tickets in the PDF is terrible. Say you have three persons return tickets, it is ordered as first passengers ticket in both directions, out and return, second passengers tickets out and return, etc.

But that doesn’t really make any sense if you are trying to scan your kids through the gates, you have to scroll all around the pdf looking for the relevant ticket to scan, a big pain.

It is also a pain to show the relevant ticket to the ticket checkers on the train, when he saw I had one of these tickets, he just asked if we were all together and said it was fine without looking.

The tickets should really be grouped together by legs of the journey. As in the first 3 pages should be outbound tickets, followed by 3 pages of the return tickets, etc.

Also I’d much prefer if hey supported tickets in Apple/Google Wallet, much easier to use, they work well at Dublin Airport.

p_haugh

They have mentioned support for mobile wallets will be coming, but there's been no mention as to when that will happen

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847227#Comment_121847227

Yes I did wonder- could not save the ticket to the wallet at all

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847227#Comment_121847227

In 2030.

Citizen Six

Probably use a third party app to add to wallet

Itssoeasy

The line around the back of Kent station that goes passed where the signal cabin used to be has been taken. Theres temporary buffers where it’s been cut. I assume this was done so they can change the track layout there as they’ve done further towards the bridge.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877005#Comment_121877005

There’s an additional through platform being added on that track.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877018#Comment_121877018

oh yeah they are extending the platform.

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877028#Comment_121877028

As LXFlyer says, it is a completely new platform being built there. There was a very good Timelapse video on Irish Rail’s Facebook showing some of the works ongoing there.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877087#Comment_121877087

Why did I get it into my head that they were extending platform 5 from then ?

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877102#Comment_121877102

Maybe you read the Examiner Article on the subject.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121877087#Comment_121877087

Can I have a link?

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121881256#Comment_121881256

This might be it .

Glaceon

I just passed by Inchicore and couldn’t see any 2700s or 8200s, have they been scrapped?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911829#Comment_121911829

No, they are still there. They just bunched them up a bit tighter last year, to make room for the new ICR carriages.

Consonata

The study into quad-tracking the Northern Line which recently got awarded EU funding, I am now hearing it will go to tender April 2024, with the tender award being August/September 2024.

AngryLips

Is four tracking only to Malahide sufficient when services as far as Drogheda will consist of ten-minute(?) frequencies for all-stopping trains?

spacetweek

We really need also the new long-distance line from clongriffin-Drogheda as mentioned in the AIRR.

Jamie2k9

The frequant singnal/points failures at Glassnavin Junction need to be addressed as a priorty.

Will be like the old Howth Junction issue if it continues.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122027760#Comment_122027760

Did they fix the Howth Junction issue?

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031330#Comment_122031330

My assumption is they possibly renewed the points a few years ago or improved overall maintenance in the area. In fact service levels have improced around Connolly as well. It was very bad for disruption maybe 2017/18.

I am fairly sure Drumcondra was also re-signillged not long ago. Glassnavin Junction should have full renewal of points if it hasn't because its now a very important junction.