Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031792#Comment_122031792

Connolly still has points trouble regularly enough. And the up road at north strand junction seems to also have signal/points trouble. While it delays whichever train is at the signal, at least they can still run trains around it.

Geuze

Given that it seems there are no plans to buy any DMUs to expand services outside of the GDA and Cork, am I correct in thinking that more services outside of GDA/Cork means waiting for existing DMUs to be cascaded from the GDA, as the new Alstom electric/battery trains arrive?

What sort of timeline might this happen in?

185 coaches have been ordered already, that is 37 sets of 5-cars

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/iarnrod-eireann-and-alstom-sign-contract-for-90-ex#:~:text=This%20order%20of%2090%20carriages,carriages%20to%20be%20ordered%20over

I presume these are due to replace the 36 old DART sets? 36 * 2-car = 72 cars

At what stage might 2800 or 29000 be replaced, so they could be sent to Galway or Limerick?

2026?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034457#Comment_122034457

that's correct, existing DMUS being freed up due to dart + will provide any extra services outside the GDA.
when that timeline will be i can't say as dart + timelines asside, the 29 sets which run the connolly suburban services are in desperate need of refurbishment so that will take time.
the 2800s are based out of limerick and i have no idea when they will be replaced, my guess might be 2040 but that's just going on a 40 year lifespan so they could go earlier, maybe when the 2600s go, or both could run for longer i don't know.

currently the services out of heuston are all run by the inter city trains including suburban services, so electrification of the kildare line will free those sets running the suburban services to go to the inter city and regional services, but again i don't know any timelines for when that will happen.

trellheim

Glasnevin junction IMO should be redone to allow services divert along the southern line and get to and from the Phoenix park tunnel. Operational flexibility if nothing else. Would allow a few Kildare services to go to Docklands as well and take some pressure off Connolly through platform timetabling . Also be good for the odd Point depot gig.

spacetweek

Sorry unless I missed something isn’t that what they’re gonna do with Dart+ West?

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122057400#Comment_122057400

No. The suggestion in Trellheims post is that services using the PPT , should be able to use the Midland line (line that Docklands trains use)

Under the DART+ plans , southwest DARTs will use Drumcondra and then the line just after Drumcondra station to go to Spencer Dock.

Ireland trains

https://twitter.com/seontrack/status/1790393517593759885?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Timetable consultation next month for implementation in late August.

journeys up 13% on 2023 and intercity at highest ever levels.

Geuze

I have a question about the implications of the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers adopting the regulations below:

Should I start a new thread? In what forum, here or under Infrastructure?

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/sustainable-and-resilient-transport-network-bringing-europe-closer-together-2024-06-13_en

The European Commission welcomes the final adoption of the Regulation underpinning the trans-European transport network (TEN-T) by the European Parliament and the Council.

My question is about the three targets below:

The revised Regulation sets ambitious targets for European transport infrastructure:

• Rail Travel Speed: By 2040, passenger railway lines on the TEN-T core and extended core network must support trains traveling at speeds of 160 km/h or faster.
• European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS): ERTMS will be deployed across the entire TEN-T network as the single European signalling system, enhancing rail safety and efficiency. National legacy 'class B' systems will be phased out, incentivising industry investment in ERTMS.
• Airport Connectivity: Major airports handling over 12 million passengers annually must be connected by long-distance rail, improving passenger connectivity and making rail a competitive alternative to domestic flights.

These targets imply that Dublin to LK and CK and border should be 160kph all the way.

(1) is that the case now?

(2) the mixing with DARTs suggests to me that we need a new line (I know quad tracking isn't possible)

(3) the target means ETCS must be installed. Is any installed now? I think the answer here is no.

(4) the airport target means that DUB airport must be on the national rail netwrork, something which I have long supported. How might this work?

I suggest a new line branching off the existing Belfast line, near Balbriggan, running through Swords, with a station there, linked to metro station, and then a station in airport, again linked to metro station. Maybe another station between airport and city centre, I'm not sure where, and then the line should go through Dockland station in tunnel, to SSG station, to Heuston station.

This means IC trains move off the existing line up to Malahide, which would be DART only.

How might the Govt decide to link the airport to the national rail network?

We need trains to be able to run from CK, LK, GY to the airport.

Economics101

@Geuze: Comments on this EU proposal:

1. 150 kph . Dublin-Cork is increasingly 160 now. The Limerick to Limerick Junction line is 70mph (110 kph) but is relatively short. Maybe 80 mph (130knph) should be considered realistic. A bigger problem would be getting speeds up in Dublin-Belfast, whicch I gather is also part of the TEN-T.

2. ETCS is being rolled out on Greystones-Drogheda because the new DART+ Alsthom untis will require it. Over the coming years (maybe at least a decade) it will be progressively rolled out over the whole system.

3. Rail connectivity to airports with 12m or more passengers. This really sticks it to the Irish transport planners (DUB is almost 3 times the 12m threshold). I hope the EU make life difficult for them in some way.

Geuze

From what I can make out, Dublin to LK must be 160 kph all the way, which is what we should be doing anyways to every city.

Great to hear about ETCS. I presume ETCS means lower cost, as IE can buy kit off the shelf?

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122260379#Comment_122260379

Dublin-Limerick is about 128 miles, of which 107 is part of the Dublin-Cork line. That leaves only about 21 miles between Limericj Junction and Limerick. It definitely 70 mph at present (and 60 between Killonan and Limerick). Over such a distance the gains from higher speed are quite small.

bk

Interestingly the regulation includes a number of outs for Ireland. We won't be involved with rail freight and we don't have to switch to standard gauge rail (boooo… lol).

I wouldn't get too excited about a heavy rail network at Dublin Airport. The regulations give various outs on it and say things like "except where specific geographic or significant physical constraints prevent such connections" so it isn't a most.

Also they say Metro connection between the airport and railway network is acceptable, so Metrolink sounds like it covers it anyway.

Cork is already 160km/h, Belfast is 140km/h, but the new fleet that replaces the Enterprise will likely fix that, I believe someone mentioned the tender being 185km/h.

The ICR's already do 160km/h. Obviously the Limerick line would need improving.

Hopefully there is EU Tent-t funding to help fund all this.

rounders

On the topic of speed and improvements to signally etc I suggest ye have a look at this video from a conference two weeks ago. Mentions a desire to increase the intercity from 160km/h to 200km/h.

Once the 5 level crossings between Cork and Limerick are closed it should improve the speed a lot too

This is the key note but a few more specific videos too on the channel about Cork rail improvements for example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B28fDAL7so0

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122261316#Comment_122261316

His comment at the end is funny and very true. He mentions they get nervous when people (idiots, my word) pull up maps of the rail network from the 1920’s. They aren’t looking to rebuild that, but build a future focused network that people will actually use.

BTW he mentions that he was looking at the passenger numbers for rail in the 1920’s, but doesn’t mention what it is. I’d love to see such numbers if anyone has them, I’ve looked a couple of times, but only found figures going back to the 1991.

spacetweek

People get very nostalgic for oldey timey railways but we were absolutely right to close most of our network:

• It was seeing falling passenger numbers due to emigration
• Many late-stage lines probably never had much of a business case and were speculative
• Independence partitioned the network which made many lines impossible to operate
• Lightly used rural lines would never be able to compete with road-based private and public transport

The All Ireland Rail Review is ambitious and is on the ball regarding what's really needed. Forget about this map, it ain't coming back nor should it.

crushproof

Regarding the consultation for the quad tracking between Connolly and Malahide, hasn't this been looked at over and over again?

Never mind the infrastructure aspect but surely it is a non-starter from a political perspective? What politician in north Dublin is going to to be in favour of hundreds of their constituents losing their back gardens and indeed possibly whole homes?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274837#Comment_122274837

No it hasn’t.

There isn’t a consultation about it.

There is an EU funded feasibility study pending to examine what the options actually are.

We don’t know what they are or what the impact on property would be.

Until the feasibility study is published, all that you may read or have read on the topic is purely subjective.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122274837#Comment_122274837

I don't believe it has ever been seriously looked at. Sure some of us have talked about it on this forum, but in terms of a proper costed study of the options, then no, it hasn't been looked at before.

CPO's are nothing new, we are doing a bunch of CPO's for Metrolink, including an entire apartment building including a public swimming pool, so I wouldn't see why this would be much different.

That isn't to say it will happen, we will need to wait and see what the report produces. What the options look like, how much they cost and if the cost has a positive return on investment or not.

markodaly

Is it possible to know what type of train configuration one gets when they buy a ticket on the Dublin-Cork line.

It's either the MKIV or the 22000 but not sure which one.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323579#Comment_122323579

If you go to manual seat selection, you can tell. The ICR's will display either 4 or 5 carriages, while the Mark4's will show 6 carriages.

Also the seat booking will skip Coach B on the Mark 4's as it is the dining car, while the ICR's will normally have coach B displayed. Another hint is if First Class is available, some ICR's don't have First Class and of those that do the layout is very different, 4 + 4 versus 2 + 4 on the Mark4.

LXFlyer

ICR operated services between Dublin & Cork:

Ex-Dublin:

Mon-Thu: 10:00, 12:00, 14:00 and 21:00

Friday: 10:00 and 12:00

Saturday: 10:00, 14:00 and 21:00

Sunday: 18:00 and 21:00

Ex-Cork:

Mon-Thu: 06:15, 13:25, 15:25 and 17:25

Friday: 06:15, 13:25 and 15:25

Saturday: 05:40, 13:25 and 17:25

Sunday: 14:25

Everything else is Mk IV operated.

Jamie2k9

Asside from the political elenment and the fact 7 ICR's are rare today and will become even more so once the fleet is reconfigered. It is good to see that Kilkenny might restored in future.

https://www.mattshanahan.ie/shanahan-calls-for-immediate-restoration-of-kilkenny-railway-platform/

Responding to a parliamentary question from Deputy Shanahan, Iarnród Éireann Chief Executive Jim Meade said that they “did not have funding at this time for restoration of the structure” but it was be their intention to “restore the protected structure of the original Train Shed once funding can be obtained”.

According to Mr Meade, “a review of Iarnród Éireann’s Infrastructure funding levels (MAC) Multi Annual Contract 5-year plan 2025-2029 is currently being progressed with the Department of Transport.”

“I’ve asked Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan to prioritise the restoration of the platform, which really shouldn’t be an undertaking too large or expensive for them at this time,” Deputy Shanahan said. “For the many people who travel to Kilkenny, Carlow, Dublin, etc., from Waterford, a platform extension and enhanced fleet carriages would greatly enhance capacity and, with it, comfort, efficiency and convenience.”

end of the road

i thought the near by shopping centre prevents the use of the old station now? if it was just the former loco run around then that's a non-issue as it's not needed but i did think more then that of the old station was taken up by the centre.

good if it can be restored and used again and lets hope it can happen if so.

we should never have been in the position where such muppetry is having to be undone in the first place anyway but if it can be undone all the better.

typical CIE property nonsense of the celtic tiger, a quick cash grab at the expense of the passengers who only get in the way anyway and limiting capacity on the line for nothing in return.

L1011

There's definitely stuff under the train shed that might stop it being used by trains due to weight concerns.

LXFlyer

Correction to my post #922 above:

ICR operated services between Dublin & Cork:

Ex-Dublin:

Mon-Thu: 10:00, 12:00, 14:00 and 21:00

Friday: 10:00, 12:00 and 19:00

Saturday: 10:00, 14:00 and 21:00

Sunday: 18:00 and 21:00

Ex-Cork:

Mon-Thu: 06:15, 13:25, 15:25 and 17:25

Friday: 06:15, 13:25 and 15:25

Saturday: 05:40, 13:25 and 17:25

Sunday: 14:25

Everything else is Mk IV operated.

dowlingm

”Major airports handling over 12 million passengers annually must be connected by long-distance rail, improving passenger connectivity and making rail a competitive alternative to domestic flights.”

am I overthinking the language here by thinking it refers to countries with more than one >12m airport which can be connected together and avoid flights between them?

spacetweek

Actually your reading may just be right. Is there a second airport on this island with >12M pax/year?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122398240#Comment_122398240

No. Belfast International is 6-7m and Cork ~3m

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122397186#Comment_122397186

You are absolutely right.

The idea behind this is to reduce unnecessary flights, in particular internal flights in mainland Europe. The idea is that you have say folks from the US arriving into the major hub airports like Amsterdam and then taking connecting flights to their destination. They want to try and promote the idea that these people would instead take a train on these local/regional destinations.

Ideally the EU would like to get rid of these internal flights.

Of course non of this applies to Ireland, the only internal flights we have are to Kerry and Donegal and Donegal is a PSO flight. Someone arriving into Dublin is already taking a coach/car/train to Belfast/Cork/Galway, etc.

This is more about mainland Europe and doesn't really apply to us.

I believe we have more important priorities to focus on first.

Ireland trains

https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/cft/prepareViewCfTWS.do?resourceId=3839982 Saw rail users ireland mention this, haven’t heard anything about it before.