Father-in-law and Toyota Avensis

Shefwedfan

PaulKK wrote: »

I know someone who was quoted 29.5k for a 191 1.8 hybrid Luna Corolla a few weeks ago.

To each their own and all that but I really can't see how anyone could justify that kind of money for what is the definition of white goods a to b motoring.

Which Corolla? Pricing on website for the new Corolla



Corolla 1.8 Hybrid Aura Saloon €26,820 Corolla 1.8 Hybrid Luna Saloon €27,700
Corolla 1.8 Hybrid Luna Sport Saloon
€29,995

PaulKK

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Which Corolla? Pricing on website for the new Corolla



Corolla 1.8 Hybrid Aura Saloon €26,820 Corolla 1.8 Hybrid Luna Saloon €27,700
Corolla 1.8 Hybrid Luna Sport Saloon
€29,995

It's the Luna saloon. Price on website presumably doesn't include metallic and delivery.

PaulKK

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Is it though? It's the only small saloon hybrid on the market I think. I don't know if there's a huge demand for it if you need one it's your only shout.

They don't want to go under valuing the product, that'd be much worse for the brand. I'd say a 1.8 hybrid makes it a respectable drive and if they get the fit and finish right it could be a fairly nice vehicle, they aren't bad looking.

The only advantage of the hybrid for the average punter is that it is in theory more economical and the extra outlay is realised back through fuel savings during the ownership of the car.

It's a"non premium" small saloon. Toyota used to be the quintessential value for money, reliable, if not bland and basic car.

Sure, a golf can be specced up easily to 30k, but at 30k it's competing with the Octavias, the i40, Civic, focus etc. Is it better than those?

1.8 hybrid producing 122bhp is hardly inspiring either?

It might be a hard sell for those coming from 140bhp+ diesels especially if these supposed fuel savings are not as good as they are made out to be.

AMKC

punisher5112 wrote: »

I would miss them, I really like them.

There is a lovely 161 Mondeo Titanium X around my area and it looks really well. Whoever buys it or both it second hand will or did get a good deal over whoever bought it new.

Toyotafanboi

PaulKK wrote: »

Sure, a golf can be specced up easily to 30k, but at 30k it's competing with the Octavias, the i40, Civic, focus etc. Is it better than those?

1.8 hybrid producing 122bhp is hardly inspiring either?

It might be a hard sell for those coming from 140bhp+ diesels especially if these supposed fuel savings are not as good as they are made out to be.

Well, to be fair it is naturally a Focus/ Civic rival, so yeah it is competing with those. The Corolla isn't a bad looking car, if is has a decent spec and reasonable fit and finish I don't see why it couldn't make a stab at holding it's own.

You'd really need to be looking at the torque figure with the hybrid setup. I'd say it pulls away as strongly as any similar sized 1.6 diesel car and being lively off the mark means more to most people particularly when splitting hairs over maybe 15bhp max output.

I could be wrong on the whole thing in fairness, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't say it'll be completely saleproof at 30k. Time will tell.

Leonard Hofstadter

ba_barabus wrote: »

Am I not mistaken in thinking there is a regular petrol Corolla available for much cheaper?

About €1,000 less, for a naturally aspirated 1.6 petrol. Now I like old school petrols, and the 1.6 Valvematic is a very nice engine to drive, but it doesn't even have direct injection or anything even remotely sophisticated (the 'Valvematic' technology it features first saw the light of day 18 years in the BMW 3 series). My point being it should be at least another €1,500 cheaper.

And it's no wonder they say they think only 10% of buyers will buy the petrol, you can only have the conventional petrol in the entry level Aura spec, if you want anything else you have to buy the hybrid.

One other interesting thing for people who like to pontificate about hybrids being so much 'cleaner' and cheaper to run (as Toyota likes to), under the WLTP tests, the CO2 for the 1.6 rises from 131 g/km to 139 g/km (mpg goes from 48.7 to 47.1), so no changes to VRT or car tax, and very little difference. Whereas the hybrid was rated at 83 mpg and 77 g/km, but is now rated at 65.7 mpg and 98 g/km - so not quite the savings one might have previously believed, it's a drop of 17.4 mpg :eek:. Just goes to show the folly of the old tests and the marketing BS about these things supposedly doing 50% of the commute on electric only mode.

Shefwedfan

Your forgetting. At the moment Toyota have the jump on most of the other manufacturers. Buy a diesel now and what will it be worth in 3 years? if you plan on keeping it for 5 years?

Just look at Hyundai with the Kona electric. First to market with a long-range electric and they want 38k for it and the spec is awful. A small crossover which you can buy the petrol version for just over 20k.

No matter what people say the market is shifting. Diesel is dying. Buying a new diesel in 2019 is madness unless you are planning on doing huge mileage and it makes sense. Most people won't be doing huge mileage so the best option is hybrid. Electric at the moment is just not readily available. That should change in the next 18 months.

Take the OP case, most days the car is probably doing 10-15km trips, maybe a good few but all short trips. No need for a diesel engine. Perfect for hybrid or PHEV or even(god help us) electric. He buys a diesel now and the price of diesel rises, so in 3 years time after burning far too much expensive diesel he tries to trade in and nobody wants anymore. His resale value is gone and he has to stump up a large amount of cash to buy a hybrid/PHEV/Electric.

Now all of the above could be wrong, if he is racking up huge mileage every day then diesel is way to go, even when they raise the price per ltr it will still work out potentially better than hybrid.

Long story short, yes the Toyota might look expensive up front but in reality is it a better deal for the life of the car?

elperello

You put your finger on it when you say the market is shifting.
Problem is nobody knows where it is going.
This uncertainty is bad for business.
As I see it a lot of people with good serviceable cars which they would normally trade in are holding on to them even though they can afford to change.

.G.

Does anyone expect hydrogen full cell to take off? I'd have thought that would end up being more popular than electric because the existing fuel station infrastructure can used to provide the fuel.

Leonard Hofstadter

I agree that diesel is on the way out, and I'm definitely not a fan of diesels, believe me having had a fairly even split of petrol and diesel driving last month there is a lot I prefer about driving a petrol car.

But they have their uses, and they are still very useful for an awful lot of people.

They are still the best option for people who mostly drive outside of town and/or people who do a lot of driving - even if a hybrid can do the same mpg (which they can't), the fuel is still 7-10 cent a litre more expensive depending on the time of year, that adds up if you're doing more than 15,000 miles a year. If you drive them like they were intended you are very unlikely to have the problems with the particulate filter (to be fair, it's much rarer to hear of DPF problems in the latest diesels) or the DMF, either.

Toyota's hybrid technology is very old tech compared to what PHEVs (which really can offer zero emissions motoring for many motorists) can offer in any case - although these types of car are also not without their drawbacks. Don't get me wrong, they are useful for certain types of motorists - but they're definitely not a substitute for a diesel or the typical diesel Toyota buyer IMO.

In the same way it was wrong that so many people bought diesels despite not doing the mileage or the driving style that justified a diesel (there was a time when fewer than 25% of new cars sold here were diesel, and for good reason), it is equally wrong to diss diesel entirely just because of what VW did.

Different fuel types suit different people, some people might choose one simply because they prefer the drive type, people should be given the freedom to choose what suits them best not have it dictated to them.

I think Toyota have made a mistake not just with ditching diesel, it doesn't fit with their average customer, but more importantly the pricing on their new models is frankly ridiculous, and the cars aren't even going on sale for another few weeks minimum. I'd be surprised if they finish 2019 as Ireland's second most sold brand like they did in 2018, well maybe they will if they drop the prices but there was a time when Toyota were able to get away with selling cars here with only seats and a steering wheel as standard, yet the buyers hoovered them up, that doesn't happen now.

Casati

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Is it though? It's the only small saloon hybrid on the market I think. I don't know if there's a huge demand for it if you need one it's your only shout.

They don't want to go under valuing the product, that'd be much worse for the brand. I'd say a 1.8 hybrid makes it a respectable drive and if they get the fit and finish right it could be a fairly nice vehicle, they aren't bad looking.

€29.5k is only a Golf Highline, even a decent spec Focus saloon is well into the mid 20's.

Focus ST Line 1.0 petrol is 23500 rrp so under 25k in met and delivery and it has good spec. A new Mondeo 2.0 is 29500 rrp

Mike9832

superg wrote: »

Does anyone expect hydrogen full cell to take off? If have thought that would end up being more popular than electric because the existing fuel station infrastructure can used to provide the fuel.

Too expensive to install ( talking millions) and run ( price per kg is more than petrol )

Full electric is the future

Hybrids like a Toyota are just a very clever cash grab, Toyota will drop it's self charging gimmick soon

Market share in US is dropping daily and EU is going the same way ( except here lol )

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

You put your finger on it when you say the market is shifting.
Problem is nobody knows where it is going.
This uncertainty is bad for business.
As see it a lot of people with good serviceable cars which they would normally trade in are holding on to them even though they can afford to change.

It is fairly easy to see which way it is going.


Just look what is happening in every other country. Just look at the main manufacturers release patterns for the next 3-5 years.


Hybrid and electric.



Brexit is slowing sales....

Shefwedfan

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

I think Toyota have made a mistake not just with ditching diesel, it doesn't fit with their average customer, but more importantly the pricing on their new models is frankly ridiculous, and the cars aren't even going on sale for another few weeks minimum. I'd be surprised if they finish 2019 as Ireland's second most sold brand like they did in 2018, well maybe they will if they drop the prices but there was a time when Toyota were able to get away with selling cars here with only seats and a steering wheel as standard, yet the buyers hoovered them up, that doesn't happen now.

Ireland, we are a tiny market. Also a market that is going against the rest of the World. Toyota are numbr 1 in the World even with all the changes and move to hybrid.



Toyota problem could be not having a BEV range going forward.

road_high

I don’t understand how the mighty Toyota can’t just either buy in a limited range of Diesel engines from BMW or PSA or whoever or else a limited range of own diesels or in partnership with the above.

JohnBoy26

road_high wrote: »

Perhaps but I don’t see the prestige element that might command higher prices? I think they’ve gone downmarket, their interiors in particular haven’t kept pace with the competition. Certainly not premium products

The interiors in the new range of toyotas are a massive step up on their older stuff and are as good as anything if not better than from most the competition. The chr for example is very nice inside.

Shefwedfan

road_high wrote: »

I don’t understand how the mighty Toyota can’t just either buy in a limited range of Diesel engines from BMW or PSA or whoever or else a limited range of own diesels or in partnership with the above.

They did buy diesel from BMW......nobody is buying diesel anymore so they pulled out of the relationship and moved to hybrid only....


Looks like a good decision as they are now number 1 in the World

colm_mcm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They did buy diesel from BMW......nobody is buying diesel anymore so they pulled out of the relationship and moved to hybrid only....


Looks like a good decision as they are now number 1 in the World

Diesel sales in the EU is still around 35-40% so it’s not like nobody’s buying them. That said, Ireland, Portugal and Italy are at much higher levels than the EU average.

FWIW, It think it makes sense what Toyota are doing, and buying engines from BMW was only ever a stopgap to buy some time before the market was ready.
The traditional PJ and Marie with the diesel Avensis complete with drawbar going to mass isn’t the buyer Toyota are chasing globally, and the Irish market for Toyota (the success of which is something of an anomaly in Europe) is totally unrepresentative of what they’re doing in general.

(This isn’t aimed at the OP!)

heroics

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Looks like a good decision as they are now number 1 in the World

Nowhere near it in Europe though.

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2018-q3-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-and-brands/

pablo128

There's supposed to be a 1.2 turbo petrol available in the Corolla hatchback. They're not advertising it for some reason.

vectra

So all this talk on here about Toyota Hybrid leads me to believe a person would be making as much of a mistake buying say the upcoming Camry hybrid as buying a new diesel car in 2019 ?

Shefwedfan

heroics wrote: »

Nowhere near it in Europe though.

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2018-q3-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-and-brands/

Not sure what your point is?

VW want to be number 1 in the World, not Europe

ba_barabus

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not sure what your point is?

VW want to be number 1 in the World, not Europe

And the European market has been relatively stagnant for years.

Toyota had a 1.5 3 cylinder diesel almost ready to go into production but pretty much said it was near impossible to meet the emissions regulations and to keep the engine reliable and affordable.

I'm on the phone for today but if I get a chance I'll try find an article I read about it.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your forgetting. At the moment Toyota have the jump on most of the other manufacturers. Buy a diesel now and what will it be worth in 3 years? if you plan on keeping it for 5 years?
?

Firstly the “death” of diesel is still highly exaggerated on here loads of people will be buying diesels for years to come and lots manufacturers with a bit of cop on will keep supplying them.

Even if the sales drop a lot of people will still want or need diesels they make a lot of sense for a large proportion of Irish people who live rurally and commute, people who do regular long drives, people who tow, people who can reclaim vat etc etc etc. which makes me wonder why some appear to think they will be worth nothing in 3 years? I think the opposite could happen, a well mided diesel could fetch a premium price if it’s harder to get them new.

Also people were saying this 3 years ago about being “mad” to buy diesel on pcp etc yet I see loads of people getting excellent trade ins with vw, skoda going from 151/161 diesels into 182 demos or 191 diesels. The scaremongering didn’t come true then and I don’t see it coming true for many many years yet. The whole anti diesel thing is turning into a bit of a cult I certainly have no fear of buying a diesel in the coming year and will most likely be buying one.

Belfast

Best family cars to buy 2018
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/62396/best-family-cars-to-buy

Top 10: Large family cars
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/topten/top-10-large-family-cars/

road_high

Less choice is never a good thing really. But I guess Toyota have done their sums

Shefwedfan

Bexley Slow Twit wrote: »

Firstly the “death” of diesel is still highly exaggerated on here loads of people will be buying diesels for years to come and lots manufacturers with a bit of cop on will keep supplying them.

Even if the sales drop a lot of people will still want or need diesels they make a lot of sense for a large proportion of Irish people who live rurally and commute, people who do regular long drives, people who tow, people who can reclaim vat etc etc etc. which makes me wonder why some appear to think they will be worth nothing in 3 years? I think the opposite could happen, a well mided diesel could fetch a premium price if it’s harder to get them new.

Also people were saying this 3 years ago about being “mad” to buy diesel on pcp etc yet I see loads of people getting excellent trade ins with vw, skoda going from 151/161 diesels into 182 demos or 191 diesels. The scaremongering didn’t come true then and I don’t see it coming true for many many years yet. The whole anti diesel thing is turning into a bit of a cult I certainly have no fear of buying a diesel in the coming year and will most likely be buying one.

Nobody said diesel is dead.

Yes you would be mad to buy a diesel if you don't need one for high mileage. Putting people into the country into a diesel bracket is completely incorrect.

If you think I am wrong, look at what the manufacturers are doing, see what other countries are doing.

colm_mcm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nobody said diesel is dead.

Yes you would be mad to buy a diesel if you don't need one for high mileage. Putting people into the country into a diesel bracket is completely incorrect.

If you think I am wrong, look at what the manufacturers are doing, see what other countries are doing.

You said earlier in the thread that nobody was buying diesel now.

Shefwedfan

colm_mcm wrote: »

You said earlier in the thread that nobody was buying diesel now.

I see the diesel brigade is in.....doesn't matter what the person wants...diesel is the answer


As I mentioned in all posts. Buy diesel if you are doing the mileage that it makes sense. If not then you would be mad to buy diesel.



I am not going to repeat everything in my other posts. Read the thread.

colm_mcm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I see the diesel brigade is in.....doesn't matter what the person wants...diesel is the answer


As I mentioned in all posts. Buy diesel if you are doing the mileage that it makes sense. If not then you would be mad to buy diesel.



I am not going to repeat everything in my other posts. Read the thread.

Ah come on now! Outside of the EV sandpit forum, people will have differing opinions, there is no “diesel brigade” that I’m aware of. If there is, I’m certainly not a member (I don’t even drive a diesel) and am open to all options once they suit the application.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They did buy diesel from BMW......nobody is buying diesel anymore so they pulled out of the relationship and moved to hybrid only....


Looks like a good decision as they are now number 1 in the World

Shefwedfan

colm_mcm wrote: »

Ah come on now! Outside of the EV sandpit forum, people will have differing opinions, there is no “diesel brigade” that I’m aware of. If there is, I’m certainly not a member (I don’t even drive a diesel) and am open to all options once they suit the application.

Ahh come on, that was in reference to why Toyota pulled the diesel engine. Why not quote all the other posts when I said to buy diesel if the person is doign the mileage???



I have seen people recommend a diesel to someone with a commute of 30km :P:P:P then go off in a rant when told it was terrible advice.



Check any of my posts, I always say to pick fuel first and then car. In the OP situation the person was a life time Toyota customer. I don't see any reason for a person who is happy with Toyota to swap? especially when the best alternatives that was suggested was a diesel Skoda.

no.8

elperello wrote:

If that doesn't suit then a Skoda Superb might fit the bill.

elperello wrote:

Suggest to him that he take a test drive in the new Corolla. It's very nearly as big as an Avensis.

I'd say an Octavia would be more comparable (dimensionally). There's a gulf in scale between the Corolla and Superb (all models)

elperello

no.8 wrote: »

I'd say an Octavia would be more comparable (dimensionally). There's a gulf in scale between the Corolla and Superb (all models)

You are right the Octavia is closer in size to the new Corolla but I thought if he found it too small then the Superb might be the answer.

By the way I never mentioned the d word.

bazz26

Toyota didn't pull out of any relationship with BMW because demand for diesel dropped or died. BMW had an agreement to supply Toyota with their older generation of diesel engines for a short term. The engines Toyota bought off BMW were first introduced in BMWs back in 2007(the ones with timing chain problems), they were tweaked over the last number of years to pass EURO emission tests but the problem is that these engines had no chance of meeting the latest stringent EURO tests so they had to be retired. BMW stopped using these engines in their own cars back in 2014/2015 and replaced them with newer engines that do meet the latest EURO testing, however they didn't supply these engines to Toyota. Toyota were developing their own new 3 cylinder diesel engines to carry on selling in Europe but abandoned the idea because the development costs of these engines to pass newer EURO tests outweighed the small diesel market share that Toyota have in Europe. Toyota Europe then had to push hybrids as an alternative to diesel.

Mad_maxx

colm_mcm wrote: »

Ah come on now! Outside of the EV sandpit forum, people will have differing opinions, there is no “diesel brigade” that I’m aware of. If there is, I’m certainly not a member (I don’t even drive a diesel) and am open to all options once they suit the application.

There absolutely is a " diesel brigade"

My uncle is chief of the brigade, stupid man even has a diesel ride on lawnmower, is outraged at the idea of anyone ever driving a petrol, thick ignorant country man.

Gael23

Whatever he buys make sure its petrol. Diesel is dead

vectra

Gael23 wrote: »

Whatever he buys make sure its petrol. Diesel is dead

I actually spoke with a friend of mine today ( in the trade of used cars )
He told me there was a meeting recently between all the heads of Manufacturers in this country, and they all agreed that Toyota may be doing the right thing but there was a good 10 years left in diesel cars in this country..

road_high

Liking the look of the new Corolla saloon- definitely looks more upmarket, a hint of small Lexus going on.

Shefwedfan

The new rav is a serious step up

Isambard

New Camry coming isn't there?

punisher5112

Isambard wrote: »

New Camry coming isn't there?

There is on 2.5 litre petrol hybrid.

It's taking over the avensis spot.

Too expensive though.

elperello

OP

I saw this over on another thread. Maybe of interest if he could find another old stock Avensis.

"davey motors toyota garage in sligo has a line of new corolla's and avensis's out the front numbered from 191 SO 1 up to 191 SO 6"

road_high

punisher5112 wrote: »

There is on 2.5 litre petrol hybrid.

It's taking over the avensis spot.

Too expensive though.

40 k for a Camry petrol- they’re havin a giraffe there!
The older models back in the 90s had very poor resale and didn’t sell very well precisely because they were larger petrol that no one wanted used. I don’t think that much as changed since then, possible worse as the premium brands have become more attainable

Shefwedfan

road_high wrote: »

40 k for a Camry petrol- they’re havin a giraffe there!
The older models back in the 90s had very poor resale and didn’t sell very well precisely because they were larger petrol that no one wanted used. I don’t think that much as changed since then, possible worse as the premium brands have become more attainable

Didn’t sell in Ireland....big seller in other countries

Big petrol with hybrid and low tax....not a bad combination

road_high

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Didn’t sell in Ireland....big seller in other countries

Big petrol with hybrid and low tax....not a bad combination

Tax wise and fuel economy it’s a far better proposition than the 90s model alright. The starting price is a bit saucy but I’d expect even the base to be very well specced.

ba_barabus

road_high wrote: »

40 k for a Camry petrol- they’re havin a giraffe there!
The older models back in the 90s had very poor resale and didn’t sell very well precisely because they were larger petrol that no one wanted used. I don’t think that much as changed since then, possible worse as the premium brands have become more attainable

Can you point out a comparable premium brand hybrid for similar money?

colm_mcm

ba_barabus wrote: »

Can you point out a comparable premium brand hybrid for similar money?

IS300h?


I don’t think they were saying premium hybrids, just premium cars have become more mainstream.

bazz26

The problem for the Camry is that it will be competing with something like this Ford Mondeo hybrid:

https://www.carsireland.ie/detail.php?ad_id=2150086&r=s.php%3Fm%5B%5D%3D26%26o%5B%5D%3D259%26f%3D3%26pp%3D50%26g%3D0

Ford dealers were selling a few of these high spec Vignale versions brand new for around 34k straight last year. This makes a 40k Camry seem like poor value imo.

ba_barabus

Most people don't know Ford make a hybrid.

The IS is much smaller than a Camry.

And my point was that it's not a direct competitor to a diesel 5 series etc as it's not diesel.

Shefwedfan

bazz26 wrote: »

The problem for the Camry is that it will be competing with something like this Ford Mondeo hybrid:

https://www.carsireland.ie/detail.php?ad_id=2150086&r=s.php%3Fm%5B%5D%3D26%26o%5B%5D%3D259%26f%3D3%26pp%3D50%26g%3D0

Ford dealers were selling a few of these high spec Vignale versions brand new for around 34k straight last year. This makes a 40k Camry seem like poor value imo.

The Mondeo is up against the Corolla


The Camry is putting itself into the Audi A6/5 Series bracket of cars.