24h Meter vs. Day & Night Meter

ampleforth

Dear all,

in my previous home I had a Day & Night Meter with 18c/kWh for Day and 8c/kWh for Night. My provider is SSE Airtricity.

Now, at the new place (that I own and just about to move in), I only have a 24h Meter (Electric Ireland). I have not yet transferred and not yet received a bill.

Here my questions:

* Is it advisable to request a Day&Night Meter?
* Is it even possible to request a Day&Night Meter? Costs? What else is involved?

I am obviously going to call the new provider, but in the meantime would be happy to hear about your experiences.

Many thanks!

jhenno78

Unless you have storage heaters a day/night meter will cost you money.

ampleforth

Interesting. Are 24h Meters coming with cheaper rates then the ones I listed for Day/Night?

I will not have storage heaters as I am going to install gas soon...

jhenno78

Day/night rates will have a price that's more expensive than 24hr during the day and cheaper at night. Because we use most during the day it means that more of your usage is getting charged at the higher rate. Even if you're careful and do things like put on your washing machine/dishwasher at night this shouldn't be enough to swing it(though it's not impossible depending on your usage/lifestyle). It almost always takes the big demand of storage heaters at night to make it worthwhile.

For individual rates you'll have to look that up yourself and do the maths (though off the top of my head that rate seems pretty good).

ampleforth

Thanks for that insight. I will obviously be able to compare onces I have the rates from new providers and calculate the break-even.

Aside all that, is installing a new meter generally being charged or is the electricity company offering that 'for free' ?

ampleforth

I just diged our some information about night times from SSE Airtricity that cleaned up a misconception I had:

'Day-rate hours are 8:00am – 11:00pm in the winter and 9:00am – 12:00 midnight in the summer. Night rate: this applies if you have a Day/Night meter, and/or a night storage heater. Night-rate hours are 11:00pm – 8:00am in the winter and 12 midnight – 9:00am in the summer.'

I thought night time starts around 8 pm or 6 pm (some other countries have that), which makes it attractive as evening times are times when one is home and uses devices. With midnight to 9 am ranges, it makes a lot less sense...

quietsailor

jhenno78 wrote: »

Day/night rates will have a price that's more expensive than 24hr during the day and cheaper at night. Because we use most during the day it means that more of your usage is getting charged at the higher rate. Even if you're careful and do things like put on your washing machine/dishwasher at night this shouldn't be enough to swing it(though it's not impossible depending on your usage/lifestyle). It almost always takes the big demand of storage heaters at night to make it worthwhile.

For individual rates you'll have to look that up yourself and do the maths (though off the top of my head that rate seems pretty good).

If you have or are thinking of buying an electric car the car would usually be charged at night so it this might make the day/night meter worthwhile

jhenno78

quietsailor wrote: »

If you have or are thinking of buying an electric car the car would usually be charged at night so it this might make the day/night meter worthwhile

Very good point.

I think the next couple of decades could see big changes to domestic power supply/rates/everything.
Long-term I can see us moving away from gas/oil home/water heating and electricity dominating. There's a lot of questions: what kind of rads will we use, will we heat water differently, will 3-phase become common in homes (for things like car chargers and instant hot water), how will this change in demand and change in how electricity is generated effect tarrifs?

ampleforth

It will certainly lead to simplification. Electricity for everything will probably do the same in the house than what it does for the car --- simpler architecture, simpler provision, simpler charging besides all the more obvious environmental benefits...

antoinolachtnai

The thought is to use heat pumps for heating, to replace oil heating in particular where homes are far from the gas grid. You can heat water with heat pumps too. (There are practical issues with doing this of course - the house needs to be reasonably well insulated and air-water heat pumps are pretty expensive compared to an oil boiler.)

3-phase is unlikely to be seen in many homes. The cost of installing it is that bit more than single-phase and we don't have the big loads in our homes that would justify it. A lot of Irish housing is rural. There is no practical way to roll out 3-phase to these homes without a lot of expense, because the ESB distribution network in these areas is single-phase.

The way the tariffs will go is to have some sort of peak pricing. The 'Standard Smart Tariff' (https://www.cru.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/CRU1818164-Smart-Meter-Upgrade-Standard-Smart-Tariff-Decision-Paper-.pdf) gives an idea of how things will go. There will be a 'peak' tariff for between 5 and 7, to discourage consumers from using large volumes of electricity at this time.

ercork

Other than electric cars and storage heaters the only other item that might warrant the installation of a night rate meter is the use of an immersion heater for hot water. As you will be installing gas central heating this is not relevant to you either. As somebody else mentioned you will pay a slightly higher rate for daytime electricity if you go down the 'Day & Night Meter' route. In addition to this the annual standing charge will be is higher by E40 or E50. Finally, as far as I know, getting a Day & Night Meter installed costs about E300.

So all things considered it's unlikely to be worth your while. Electric Ireland estimate that you would need to use more than a quarter of your electricity at night time to justify it.

tech

Bord Gais charge the following

Standing Charge 63 days 62.57 cent/day € 39.42 for Day / Night meter

colm_mcm

tech wrote: »

Bord Gais charge the following

Standing Charge 63 days 62.57 cent/day € 39.42 for Day / Night meter

That’s the rural price ex VAT?

Nightsaver urban is €209.25 inc VAT p/a
24h meter is €159.13

So €50 a year in the difference. Unless I’m missing something

coylemj

ercork wrote: »

Other than electric cars and storage heaters the only other item that might warrant the installation of a night rate meter is the use of an immersion heater for hot water. As you will be installing gas central heating this is not relevant to you either.

How is it 'not relevant' - might he not use the immersion to heat water in the summer?

I have a very well insulated immersion tank. In the summer I switch off the pilot light on the gas boiler and use the immersion element to heat the tank. Am I doing something wrong? I do not have a dual zone system.

antoinolachtnai

Any new gas heating install will be setup to allow water to be heated with gas in summertime.

There is an argument to be had about whether this is more efficient than doing it the way you do it, because of losses from the pipework, but it is certainly convenient.

2011

coylemj wrote: »

I have a very well insulated immersion tank. In the summer I switch off the pilot light on the gas boiler and use the immersion element to heat the tank. Am I doing something wrong? I do not have a dual zone system.

This is an expensive strategy.
Regardless of how well insulated your tank is it would cost less to heat the water with gas.

ercork

If there's any chance of getting the system zoned so you could turn on the hot water without having the radiators come on as well I'd look into it.

coylemj

ercork wrote: »

If there's any chance of getting the system zoned so you could turn on the hot water without having the radiators come on as well I'd look into it.

Not a chance. My boiler is adjacent to my shed, the pipes come underground and have to flow all around the house to heat the water. Implementing dual zone would be so disruptive (lifting my patio and internal floorboards) and expensive that it's just not an option.

2011 wrote: »

This is an expensive strategy.
Regardless of how well insulated your tank is it would cost less to heat the water with gas.

The sink element on my immersion is 2 kW and it only requires 20 minutes to heat up the tank if it isn't stone cold, that's two-thirds of a unit or about 13c per day. Even if gas would be cheaper, the racket the pipes and joints make when the hot water starts flowing is such that I'll take my sleep thanks and use electricity to heat the water in the summer. Think of all the money I'm saving by turning off the pilot light in the gas boiler

ercork

coylemj wrote: »

Not a chance. My boiler is adjacent to my shed, the pipes come underground and have to flow all around the house to heat the water. Implementing dual zone would be so disruptive (lifting my patio and internal floorboards) and expensive that it's just not an option.



The sink element on my immersion is 2 kW and it only requires 20 minutes to heat up the tank if it isn't stone cold, that's two-thirds of a unit or about 13c per day. Even if gas would be cheaper, the racket the pipes and joints make when the hot water starts flowing is such that I'll take my sleep thanks and use electricity to heat the water in the summer. Think of all the money I'm saving by turning off the pilot light in the gas boiler

Yeah, stick with the immersion!

Hotblack Desiato

coylemj wrote: »

Not a chance. My boiler is adjacent to my shed, the pipes come underground

Heat loss city.

Also if the boiler is old enough to have a pilot light, it must be very inefficient. A new condensing boiler could well pay for itself within 5 years.

coylemj

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Heat loss city.

Your suggested alternative? The underground pipes are extremely well insulated, I saw them being laid when the house was built.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Also if the boiler is old enough to have a pilot light, it must be very inefficient. A new condensing boiler could well pay for itself within 5 years.

'could' being the operative word. Below a certain rate of energy consumption, there is no case for me replacing the boiler.