Property Market 2019

The_Conductor

It depends- there are a staggering number of sales falling through from prospective purchasers who are in chains- in some areas (such as West Dublin) some properties are hitting the market 3 or 4 times- before they actually sell, as the sales keep falling through. Have a chat with local estate agents- people in chains are toxic- it doesn't matter what you bid- once you're in a chain- they don't want to know.

By rights, yes, all bids should be recorded and treated in a fair and unbiased manner. The fact of the matter is- not all bids are equal- and someone who is in a chain- can bid, and very often do bid- but only serve to scare away buyers who are in a position to close a sale in a fairly expeditious manner.

Lots of sellers are also telling estate agents to avoid those in chains- for this reason- however, it tends to be those who have been bitten who are shy of chain buyers- and in the secondhand market- there are a growing number of bitten sellers who are experiencing a renaissance of the 'cash-is-king' mantra.

kippy

CPTM wrote: »

I had a very strange experience there with Allen and Jacob agents on one house. They have two cash buyers bidding on it currently. I placed a bid but they don't want to hear from us anymore because because we're in a chain.

That's fair enough, but right from the get go it's been a strange experience. They were telling any viewers that arrived after 20 minutes to the open viewing that it was closed up and they weren't allowing anyone else in. They took my number, but didn't phone me. I phoned and they never returned my call. Eventually they did and I bid 7k higher than the latest highest.

I phoned the next day to tell them I'm sale agreed and to see if they'd any thoughts on my highest bid. They said it had already been outbid and they don't want any more offers from us because we're in a chain. It's been on the market for 5 days.. shouldn't they accept all bids from every angle until everyone stops bidding(to get the highest amount possible), and accept the offer which is most attractive, even if it is a cash buyer who is bidding 5k less than a chain buyer?

It would depend on the position of the seller to be honest - and to be fair to the agent, if everything is as it seems it is, they are being very fair to all prospective purchasers by not entertaining your bids.

If the seller needs to sell fast, the process is generally far faster and less likely to fair with someone who isn't in a chain and/or doesn't need to go through all the hoops that the mortgage side of things entails - so I can see the need for speed on this side.

In the case of them accepting all bids up to a point - why should you drive up the cost of the house when realistically the seller won't deal with you because of your situation? (Again a lot of agents may deal with this differently)

CPTM

Yes.. I suppose it just sounded strange to me that they didn't entertain my bid even to see how far the cash buyer would go, especially since its only been on the market since Saturday. But there are people in work here who have said they also rejected chain buyers right from the beginning. I know the sellers are building a house in down the country so maybe they need access to finance fast. The estate agent said he reckons it will be sale agreed next week. Pity, I really loved that house:(

Sunrise_Sunset

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends- there are a staggering number of sales falling through from prospective purchasers who are in chains- in some areas (such as West Dublin) some properties are hitting the market 3 or 4 times- before they actually sell, as the sales keep falling through. Have a chat with local estate agents- people in chains are toxic- it doesn't matter what you bid- once you're in a chain- they don't want to know.

By rights, yes, all bids should be recorded and treated in a fair and unbiased manner. The fact of the matter is- not all bids are equal- and someone who is in a chain- can bid, and very often do bid- but only serve to scare away buyers who are in a position to close a sale in a fairly expeditious manner.

Lots of sellers are also telling estate agents to avoid those in chains- for this reason- however, it tends to be those who have been bitten who are shy of chain buyers- and in the secondhand market- there are a growing number of bitten sellers who are experiencing a renaissance of the 'cash-is-king' mantra.

I can attest to this as I experienced it myself recently. We are buying, in a chain as I am selling a property too. Every EA that we encountered asked us are we in a chain and were less interested when we said we were. And in the end we had to prove that the person buying from us is a first time buyer, so that it's less of a chain. It has been extremely frustrating.

CPTM

I can see from a quick Google (just now) that it was first listed in October 2018. So I think you guys are right, they must have been stung by a chain buyer last year. Hopefully more like it come on the market soon.

Wildly Boaring

Trying to buy in a chain ourselves.

Managed to sort with builder on a new build. Only interested as we had engineers report prior to going sale agreed on our house. Our buyers are not in a chain and as our house had good interest we were able to avoid chain buyer.

Can only hope our sale goes through. I could fully understand if a builder wouldn't deal with us until later in process, say signed contract.

Blueshoe

Sorry but what is a "chain"?

Iv seen it mentioned in recent posts.

duffman13

Blueshoe wrote: »

Sorry but what is a "chain"?

Iv seen it mentioned in recent posts.

If someone's selling a house to buy a house, it is essentially a chain. Your then depending on someone else selling a house to buy a house and if that falls through then the next sale could fall through

Example:
Blueshoe wants to buy my house but has to sell his own.
I want to buy x but am waiting on Blueshoe to sell his house to buy mine

Your sale going tits up then means my purchase has gone the same way

voluntary

Nonrefundable deposits would surely help many chain buyers help secure properties. You ask the seller to keep the house for you - take some risk on yourself. With no financial collateral I can't see any reason why would any seller agree to wait few months for a buyer to get his finances in order. Especially in the current boom time. You never know where the market can be in 6 months from now, especially with brexit looming and trump playing a mad man with the global markets.

Twenty Grand

And that's part of the problem.

I could go offer accepted in July, but it could be November before the contracts are signed.

If house prices drop in the meantime I've every incentive to lower my bid, and the seller has every incentive to accept since they want to sell ASAP and I've already wasted so much of their time.
Also if I bid with more money than I have, it could take months to that out with the bank. And it may never be sorted, so the sale falls through months after the offer was accepted.

voluntary

Yeah, the rules are all messed up. Normally, you'd have the seller to get all the documentation in order before or during putting a house for sale, so everything is ready. Buyer places offer, seller accepts and max 30 days from this time the sale is concluded, buyer gets the keys, seller gets the money.

The current extremely slow system isn't helping anyone.

Assetbacked

Institutional investors versus private landlords. Just how unfair is it? https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/how-big-landlords-in-ireland-minimise-their-tax-bills-on-rental-properties-1.3917078?mode=amp

Stamp duty: Typically stamp duty does not apply to the transfer of loans and, according to Revenue, stamp duty is not chargeable on various conveyances and transfers and leases involving Nama, the State agency’s subsidiaries and participating institutions.

This means that funds acquiring such assets via loans aren’t subject to stamp duty at a rate of up to 6 per cent that is a liability for a smaller landlord. It’s also a reason why some of these loan sales don’t’ show up on the Property Price Register.

Gross roll-up: Investments held in an Icav are not subject to tax on an annual basis. Tax only arises on crystallisation of income or gains, which means that the funds can grow tax free. An individual landlord on the other hand must pay tax every year on their rental income.

Corporation tax: Property companies holding assets in a Reit or Icav won’t pay any corporation tax. Small landlords, however, must pay income tax on their rental income, at a rate of up to 55 per cent.

Capital gains tax: When a landlord sells a property, they will face a CGT bill of 33 per cent. Funds such as Icavs and Reits, however, can typically avoid this.

Wildly Boaring

voluntary wrote: »

Nonrefundable deposits would surely help many chain buyers help secure properties. You ask the seller to keep the house for you - take some risk on yourself. With no financial collateral I can't see any reason why would any seller agree to wait few months for a buyer to get his finances in order. Especially in the current boom time. You never know where the market can be in 6 months from now, especially with brexit looming and trump playing a mad man with the global markets.

Yeah but I pulled out of a deal 2 years ago.

After 3 months the seller still couldn't produce his deeds nevermind a contract.

Sales fall for various reasons and a non-refundable deposit needs to be at a certain stage. ie Engineers survey and valuation by seller. Buyer with all documents in place. As it is now......

OwlsZat

Assetbacked wrote: »

Institutional investors versus private landlords. Just how unfair is it? https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/how-big-landlords-in-ireland-minimise-their-tax-bills-on-rental-properties-1.3917078?mode=amp

A lad at work is 3 months in the middle of a 3 part chain and reckons solicitors are holding it all up. Awful report on the REIT / Vulture fund corportate style landlords. They really had our pants down. I'd be worried that the rules won't change because too many TDs are big investors in the same.

Graham

Which TDs are big investors in REITs?

kippy

voluntary wrote: »

Yeah, the rules are all messed up. Normally, you'd have the seller to get all the documentation in order before or during putting a house for sale, so everything is ready. Buyer places offer, seller accepts and max 30 days from this time the sale is concluded, buyer gets the keys, seller gets the money.

The current extremely slow system isn't helping anyone.

The system isn't extremely slow for everyone.
It all depends on the buyers situation (whether they need a mortage, complex health issues)
Sellers situation (Have they their property tax all in order in the property, is the title on the property clean, are there any issues with management companies, the estate been taken in charge, has the seller access to the manament companies books to provide to the purchasers solicitor has the house the appropriate planning, who owns the parking space etc)
Then there's the availability of staff in the banks, solicitors, surveyors, engineers etc

There was a post on here some time ago from a person who deals with these types of things on a daily basis and they outlined fairly clearly the issues that can occur in the background.

If the buyer has cash, the seller has all of their documentation gathered and both parties have a relatively good solicitor things can and are turned around fairly quickly.

I've seen issues in the past whereby the seller needs to get documentation from a management company that can take two weeks to turnaround and issues with ownership of the shared area in an estate that can take another two weeks to turn around that adds a month to the entire process without the usual 4 weeks needed at a minimum, add in holidays and it all racks up.

Ultimately it's probably the biggest purchase you are going to make - rushing something or deciding to go against the advice of your solictor to speed things up is ultimately foolish, as some threads on this forum will back up.

What's interesting when certain issues are ran into, particularily when it comes to second hand property, if you solicitor spots an issue with title or ownership of a parking space etc, one would wonder if and how the solicitor for the current seller missed them at the time that seller was buying the property? (Sometimes they don't miss the issue, it's not a show stopper - other times you'd wonder)

Mickiemcfist

OwlsZat wrote: »

A lad at work is 3 months in the middle of a 3 part chain and reckons solicitors are holding it all up. Awful report on the REIT / Vulture fund corportate style landlords. They really had our pants down. I'd be worried that the rules won't change because too many TDs are big investors in the same.

If I had any smidgen of faith in the governments interest in the greater good, I'd be thinking that they incentivised Reits & foreign pension funds in order to get houses & apartments built quick, which is happening. Then pull the rug from under them by increasing tax rules once we have enough built, they sell as they're not worth as much as they were to them & property prices flatten a bit.

However I don't have a smidgen of faith in the government.

IAmTheReign

kippy wrote: »

The system isn't extremely slow for everyone.
It all depends on the buyers situation (whether they need a mortage, complex health issues)
Sellers situation (Have they their property tax all in order in the property, is the title on the property clean, are there any issues with management companies, the estate been taken in charge, has the seller access to the manament companies books to provide to the purchasers solicitor has the house the appropriate planning, who owns the parking space etc)
Then there's the availability of staff in the banks, solicitors, surveyors, engineers etc

There was a post on here some time ago from a person who deals with these types of things on a daily basis and they outlined fairly clearly the issues that can occur in the background.

If the buyer has cash, the seller has all of their documentation gathered and both parties have a relatively good solicitor things can and are turned around fairly quickly.

I've seen issues in the past whereby the seller needs to get documentation from a management company that can take two weeks to turnaround and issues with ownership of the shared area in an estate that can take another two weeks to turn around that adds a month to the entire process without the usual 4 weeks needed at a minimum, add in holidays and it all racks up.

Ultimately it's probably the biggest purchase you are going to make - rushing something or deciding to go against the advice of your solictor to speed things up is ultimately foolish, as some threads on this forum will back up.

What's interesting when certain issues are ran into, particularily when it comes to second hand property, if you solicitor spots an issue with title or ownership of a parking space etc, one would wonder if and how the solicitor for the current seller missed them at the time that seller was buying the property? (Sometimes they don't miss the issue, it's not a show stopper - other times you'd wonder)

The system in Ireland is glacially slow. I had a friend in Canada who recently had to sell up and move across the country with her boyfriend when he was offered a new job. Within 5 or 6 weeks they had listed and sold their current property and purchased and moved into a new one. She told me that that kind of turnaround was the norm over there and was shocked when I told her how long everything takes in Ireland. Similar situation here in Switzerland where I'm working right now. A colleague recently purchased his first place and in under 3 weeks of viewing somewhere he liked had signed contracts. Neither of these were cash purchases either.

SirGerryAdams

The rules won't change because the government are happy for these corps to have the loans/ownership because if things go tits up the banks won't be hit.

Honestly there should be riots in the street because the government are not looking after the people.

Blueshoe

duffman13 wrote: »

If someone's selling a house to buy a house, it is essentially a chain. Your then depending on someone else selling a house to buy a house and if that falls through then the next sale could fall through

Example:
Blueshoe wants to buy my house but has to sell his own.
I want to buy x but am waiting on Blueshoe to sell his house to buy mine

Your sale going tits up then means my purchase has gone the same way

Thank you

Blueshoe

I have been saving for a long time and had hoped to purchase a buy to let property. An apartment most likely.

Now im not so sure. The one off landlord is being painted as the villain. Seems to be only a market for the big boys

beauf

What makes you think that...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/vast-majority-of-landlords-selling-up-are-genuine-says-homelessness-chief-1.3850525

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/irelands-biggest-private-landlord-spends-285m-on-over-800-homes-38215540.html

OwlsZat

Graham wrote: »

Which TDs are big investors in REITs?

It's fairly old adage in Ireland that those with money make money out of property. ie., John Delaney gets rumbled for adding 3k rent allowance to his salary while loaning 250k to his building and property company. Why be a director of such a company over being a regular landlord?

Seems fairly obvious the these property rental company's and REITs are tax break havens for wealthy individuals. My question was are TDs part of it? Seems are fairly rough justice that those with most are paying least with respect to their investments. The only reason I can see such an injustice existing is if legislators were also benefactors.

Don't suppose FOI exists to investments but would certainly explain the legislative failing.

OwlsZat

beauf wrote: »

What makes you think that...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/vast-majority-of-landlords-selling-up-are-genuine-says-homelessness-chief-1.3850525

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/irelands-biggest-private-landlord-spends-285m-on-over-800-homes-38215540.html

:eek:
Frightening and Bonkers. We are some bunch of morons.

Graham

OwlsZat wrote: »

It's fairly old adage in Ireland that those with money make money out of property. ie., John Delaney gets rumbled for adding 3k rent allowance to his salary while loaning 250k to his building and property company. Why be a director of such a company over being a regular landlord?

Seems fairly obvious the these property rental company's and REITs are tax break havens for wealthy individuals. My question was are TDs part of it? Seems are fairly rough justice that those with most are paying least with respect to their investments. The only reason I can see such an injustice existing is if legislators were also benefactors.

Don't suppose FOI exists to investments but would certainly explain the legislative failing.

You didn't ask a question. You made a statement which it appears you're unable to stand over.

A cursory glance over a recent register of members interests returns one TD with a shareholding in a company with REIT in the name.

OwlsZat

OwlsZat wrote: »

I'd be worried that the rules won't change because too many TDs are big investors in the same.

Graham wrote: »

You made a statement which it appears you're unable to stand over.

Time to go to Specsavers Graham. I said I'd be worried which I fully stand over. There is no assertion of fact.

IAmTheReign

OwlsZat wrote: »

It's fairly old adage in Ireland that those with money make money out of property. ie., John Delaney gets rumbled for adding 3k rent allowance to his salary while loaning 250k to his building and property company. Why be a director of such a company over being a regular landlord?

Seems fairly obvious the these property rental company's and REITs are tax break havens for wealthy individuals. My question was are TDs part of it? Seems are fairly rough justice that those with most are paying least with respect to their investments. The only reason I can see such an injustice existing is if legislators were also benefactors.

Don't suppose FOI exists to investments but would certainly explain the legislative failing.

TDs are required by law to disclose all assets and non governmental income annually in the register of members interests. This information is publicly available and can be found here.https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/publications/?topic%5B0%5D=register-of-members-interests You are welcome to have a look through it but I would think if there was a significant number of TDs invested in REITs the papers would have been all over it by now.

Reversal

CSO property price index is out for April. Cooling off in Dublin continues.

"In Dublin, residential property prices rose by 0.5% in the year to April, with no change in house prices and apartments rising by 2.2%. The highest house price growth in Dublin was in South Dublin at 4.0%, while Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown saw the greatest decline in house prices (1.5%)."

Dolbhad

Ireland also has two systems of registry of deeds and land registry which can play into things. Registry of deeds is a more onerous title for a solicitor to review and if there are any issues, makes it much harder and longer to fix than land registry. Also if you need anything from land registry or council or management company this can take weeks and outside solicitors control. Again I find Irish people like to built extensions or garages and don’t do the paperwork like cert of exemption or get planning if you need to. The amount of times I’ve asked auctioneers about it saying it won’t be an issue is shocking. Also if any rights of way are needed and not formally registered, that pushes things back further.

Banks have also gottten a lot stricter on paperwork than in the boom as they seem to accept any issues back then and had issues when selling on than. So if anything needs to be updated between when seller bought and sold it will delay things.

I’d rather it take a few extra months to close than have any issues down the line. The day you buy is the day you sell!!

Islander13

Graham wrote: »

You didn't ask a question. You made a statement which it appears you're unable to stand over.

A cursory glance over a recent register of members interests returns one TD with a shareholding in a company with REIT in the name.

Correct, very few to no TDs own shares in REITs. Next conspiracy theory please