Where are the electric cars for the masses?

ELM327

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

The chief exec was on the radio

He said they'll be switching cars out after a few hours to allow someone else charge

No panic with installing public charging points either

Good luck with that.
Type2 locks to the charger and to the car.

Unless they are talking about throttling power? In which case we should all just go solar and home storage, if the grid throttles the power and you have stored solar then use the stored solar.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Unless they are talking about throttling power? In which case we should all just go solar and home storage, if the grid throttles the power and you have stored solar then use the stored solar.

Home storage is very expensive. A small 2.4kWh li-on battery might be affordable but that will not go far to charging your car. You could go a large lead acid battery bank, but that is very old skool and only half the capacity would be usable

But if you have solar, there is no stopping you plugging the car in during solar hours. And using your own green electricity that way. There is nothing the ESB can do about that and it is impossible for anyone to ever charge you for that

I'm going to do that low tech in the next few weeks. Just plug my car in during the day whenever I'm home (unless it is a very cloudy / rainy day) and limit my car to 6A charging. I already just about never charge publicly. If I do this, I reckon I won't even have to charge at night much any more, if at all. I hasten to add that I only do the national average mileage. If I did 60-70k km per year, this wouldn't work

KCross

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

The chief exec was on the radio

He said they'll be switching cars out after a few hours to allow someone else charge

No panic with installing public charging points either

He didnt say switching out. He said throttling. Very different.

samih

Just plug in every night and let the car/ESB decide when to charge. For the average motorist doing 17k a year that's only 55 km a day over 300 driving days. On a LEAF that's about an hour of charging per day at 6 kW charger. If you need a full topup there will probably be some kind of override setting/button/app but it will cost ya.

redlead

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have yet to find a single electric car driver that doesn't know the good days will be over...the question is well....


At the moment if you use the main Motor forum as a good view of the Irish public you have a very very large percentage of "diesel till I die" etc etc



So personally I see the rest of the World moved and Ireland still crawling behind. I would guess at least 5 year before the government really needs to start taxing the ass out of electric


In the meantime all those "diesel till I die" people can continue to pay my taxes for me......

To be fair you could say the same about the electric sub forum in relation to EVs. Most people couldn't give a monkeys about cars. They just want to get from A to B.

I'd also disagree that Ireland is behind. The car industry in general is behind and that is what is delaying uptake. I actually think Ireland will convert very quickly once affordable mass produced EVs become available. Generally any EVs here sell out. We'll see how things go once VW start their roll out of the ID.

ted1

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

I'd be worried about buying EV and charging

Is 3-4 hours enough to charge a car at home,that's all the ESB is proposing to allow with smart metering.

If you want you could charge for longer however what will happen is that you’ll pet a premium. As you’ll be on a different tariff scheme

A shorter window to charge at cheap rate will persuade people to install more powerful charge points, the ESB refuse to install more then 3.5 Kw charge points as part of the grant but anyone can install a 7 Kw + charge point if they want themselves.

This shorter charge window might put a much greater strain on local grids.

However, charging at 7 Kw over 4 hrs would give around 28 Kw - roughly 10% due to efficiency losses or 30% loss if you have Renault Zoe with the 44 Kw charger.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

A shorter window to charge at cheap rate will persuade people to install more powerful charge points, the ESB refuse to install more then 3.5 Kw charge points as part of the grant but anyone can install a 7 Kw + charge point if they want themselves.

This shorter charge window might put a much greater strain on local grids.

However, charging at 7 Kw over 4 hrs would give around 28 Kw - roughly 10% due to efficiency losses or 30% loss if you have Renault Zoe with the 44 Kw charger.

The fact ESB are no longer installing the charge points may help this now. A home owner can install a 7kw now no problem and claim the grant from SEAI.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

A shorter window to charge at cheap rate will persuade people to install more powerful charge points, the ESB refuse to install more then 3.5 Kw charge points as part of the grant but anyone can install a 7 Kw + charge point if they want themselves.

This shorter charge window might put a much greater strain on local grids.

However, charging at 7 Kw over 4 hrs would give around 28 Kw - roughly 10% due to efficiency losses or 30% loss if you have Renault Zoe with the 44 Kw charger.

You could install a three phase AC at home if your car could take it.
Alternatively the cost of DC 22kW units is coming down massively.

If I had an EV and I needed to charge overnight and they were reducing night rate to sub 4 hours then I'd install a DC charger. You can even buy one from setec that plugs into 22kW AC 3 phase and connects to the car at DC. We're talking sub €5k for those.And they are coming down

DC will take a long time to get to the price most people would pay, myself included and AC points are much simpler as they just need to switch power more than anything, DC is a lot more complicated.

The ESB would want to start reducing their 3 phase costs, I got a pole at the end of my garden 33 Kva I think, so it wouldn't be a big deal just expensive.

I got an 11 Kw 3 Phase charger in the i3 94 Ah but even those 3 phase EVSE are expensive.

Still, I think for most commutes even my 142 Km commute 4 hrs at 7 kw is plenty. For the rest and for 60 kwh + electric cars like the Kona then these owners are not going to be driving 400 Km daily so there's no need to have the battery run down so much that 4-5 Hrs isn't going to be enough.

It would be sad to see the ESB bring the night rate window down so much.

It's actually sad to see the Kona with only single phase charging on AC, that is lame.

ELM327

I think when I move house again I'm going to future proof and see what the cost of 3 phase is. I'd like to have at least 11kW support at home. Smart metering will never help the customer, only the suppliers.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I think when I move house again I'm going to future proof and see what the cost of 3 phase is. I'd like to have at least 11kW support at home. Smart metering will never help the customer, only the suppliers.

If its in a rural location, when you pick the house take a 360° look around and locate the nearest 3 phase line. If you cant see one it means its going to cost thousands.

If your house is anywhere near a business or maybe even some farmers then the line shouldnt be too far away but it could still be thousands.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

If its in a rural location, when you pick the house take a 360° look around and locate the nearest 3 phase line. If you cant see one it means its going to cost thousands.

If your house is anywhere near a business or maybe even some farmers then the line shouldnt be too far away but it could still be thousands.

If it's a one off cost of a couple of grand it's worth it.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/22kw-AC-TYPE-2-Charger-Rapid_60778416841.html
http://www.setec-power.com/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=13&id=13
These seem to take input 22kW AC and output DC.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

If it's a one off cost of a couple of grand it's worth it.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/22kw-AC-TYPE-2-Charger-Rapid_60778416841.html
http://www.setec-power.com/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=13&id=13
These seem to take input 22kW AC and output DC.

The install cost would obviously be one-off but there would be ongoing costs if you asked them to supply you with a connection to support 22kW EV charging... in fact you'd probably need 30kW+ connection if you wanted to do 22kW DC charging as you'd need additional capacity to allow the rest of the house function while the car is charging.

Realistically it would probably need to be 11kW EV charging and then maybe 20kW connection. I think if you go beyond the 16kVA connection you pay extra monthly costs but open to correction.

Meanwhile In Germany I could install 3 phase AC EVSE no problem as 3 phase exists in probably every home.

3 phase to homes isn't even in sight of being discussed in Ireland.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

The install cost would obviously be one-off but there would be ongoing costs if you asked them to supply you with a connection to support 22kW EV charging... in fact you'd probably need 30kW+ connection if you wanted to do 22kW DC charging as you'd need additional capacity to allow the rest of the house function while the car is charging.

Realistically it would probably need to be 11kW EV charging and then maybe 20kW connection. I think if you go beyond the 16kVA connection you pay extra monthly costs but open to correction.

Yes your MIC would increase so I presume you'd be moved to something similar to an LVMD tariff but for domestic.

Probably 11kW 3 phase is the best compromise between cost and charging speed. I'd be looking out the sticks in rural meath so probably some farmers nearby have 3 phase already.

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile In Germany I could install 3 phase AC EVSE no problem as 3 phase exists in probably every home.

3 phase to homes isn't even in sight of being discussed in Ireland.

Yes, in this backwards cesspit we're probably lucky to be allowed move on from leaded petrol - while modern countries are already progressed to 3 phase nuclear power at home.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes your MIC would increase so I presume you'd be moved to something similar to an LVMD tariff but for domestic.

Probably 11kW 3 phase is the best compromise between cost and charging speed. I'd be looking out the sticks in rural meath so probably some farmers nearby have 3 phase already.



Yes, in this backwards cesspit we're probably lucky to be allowed move on from leaded petrol - while modern countries are already progressed to 3 phase nuclear power at home.

As long as investors are making money who cares about us lol.

In the beginning we were promised much cheaper energy bills with all the wind farms but electricity costs have gone up and up. Joke.

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

I think when I move house again I'm going to future proof and see what the cost of 3 phase is. I'd like to have at least 11kW support at home. Smart metering will never help the customer, only the suppliers.

It’ll help them to control and reduce costs

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As long as investors are making money who cares about us lol.

In the beginning we were promised much cheaper energy bills with all the wind farms but electricity costs have gone up and up. Joke.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/how-wind-energy-costs-you-less-than-1-a-year-1.3796904%3fmode=amp

Jackhammer9

A lot of rural areas the nearest supply is a 2-wire
at a high-voltage and no 3P available

They can supply more than 16 KVA single phase off this

I've installed 25 or 30 KVA for commercial jobs in the past , not sure if this will be an option for domestic.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

3 phase to homes isn't even in sight of being discussed in Ireland.

It’s to late in the day for that. You’d basically have to rewrite the entire distribution system

Imagine a future, 2 electric cars charging at 7 Kw, all new builds require heat pumps already ? these use a lot of electricity.

Take fossil fuels out of the equation, we can do it, but we're going to need a hell of a lot more electricity in the process and we will need to be able to get more of it from the gird. the average 12 kva might not be enough for much longer even the max single phase can supply might not be enough. this will rise costs to the consumer even more but, should we not expect to be provided with a proper service future homes will require ? not even future homes but all homes in the not too distant future ? and should we be made pay more for it ?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/how-wind-energy-costs-you-less-than-1-a-year-1.3796904%3fmode=amp

Electricity costs on average are not getting cheaper for the consumer, + all the other goodness we have to pay for on each bill. they might be cheaper than if we had no wind on the grid but in general the trend for energy costs is up regardless of the supply.

Nothing to stop the cost of rental going up or the PSO Levy either.

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine a future, 2 electric cars charging at 7 Kw, all new builds require heat pumps already ? these use a lot of electricity.

Take fossil fuels out of the equation, we can do it, but we're going to need a hell of a lot more electricity in the process and we will need to be able to get more of it from the gird. the average 12 kva might not be enough for much longer even the max single phase can supply might not be enough. this will rise costs to the consumer even more but, should we not expect to be provided with a proper service future homes will require ? not even future homes but all homes in the not too distant future ? and should we be made pay more for it ?

The building regulations are heading towards the building of passive houses that don't require a significant spaced heating requirement. This will significantly reduce the amount of electricity required to heat houses in the future freeing up more capacity to charge EV instead. Even when I was building a house in 2011, the Regs were classing a heat pump as a 'dirty' heating system and due to grid inefficiencies / losses using electricity to heat a house was being frowned upon. Back then the experts were advising to build to passive standard and install a small oil / gas boiler to provide any residual space heating requirements.

samih

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile In Germany I could install 3 phase AC EVSE no problem as 3 phase exists in probably every home.

3 phase to homes isn't even in sight of being discussed in Ireland.

Most are probably 3 x 25 A so not great for the single phase cars. But perfect for i3/eGolf that can use 3 x 16 A. As long as you don't have any other big consumers in the house at night.

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

It’ll help them to control and reduce costs

It will for sure, they will be able to increase prices.
At night, they are often paid to use electricity due to low demand (I used to work in energy pricing)


This will never benefit the customer. Like the CER introduction of competition, the Irish market for gas and electricity went from one of the cheapest to one of the most expensive over the last 10-15 years

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

It will for sure, they will be able to increase prices.
At night, they are often paid to use electricity due to low demand (I used to work in energy pricing)


This will never benefit the customer. Like the CER introduction of competition, the Irish market for gas and electricity went from one of the cheapest to one of the most expensive over the last 10-15 years

I was talking about the customer. They can control and reduce costs

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

I was talking about the customer. They can control and reduce costs

Sure. In the same way that prepay power lets them, or fake competition lets them.


The customer is always told they win from these changes but they never do.

Andy From Sligo

Not wishing to derail talks on charging and 3phase and everything but why do BEV manufacturers supply a type 2 cable with their cars when street chargers already have the cables on them? I presume when you have a charger installed at your home it comes with cable as well doesn't it? Or is it just a socket installed and that's where you use the cable that's supplied with the car?

As u were

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Not wishing to derail talks on charging and 3phase and everything but why do BEV manufacturers supply a type 2 cable with their cars when street chargers already have the cables on them? I presume when you have a charger installed at your home it comes with cable as well doesn't it? Or is it just a socket installed and that's where you use the cable that's supplied with the car?

As u were

There are no cables with AC street chargers only the DC fast chargers.

Some Home charge points have the cables attached , called tethered.