Where are the electric cars for the masses?

Shefwedfan

Augeo wrote: »

Again, your impression is that I'm afraid of something.....I think that's a reflection of your own insecurities or else you're trying to get a reaction. You won't I believe it's more likely the insecurity thing though .....you should really work on that for the new year

To clarify, I only test drive what ticks enough boxes for me. In your own words. No EV does that currently
(No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet.)
No fear old boy, just rational thinking.

Thierry/mike another new alias? Ahh I joke

So if you don’t want a Bev and haven’t test drove a Bev? you are currently posting on a electric car forum why you don’t want a Bev? That correct?

heroics

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your requirements are not met by electric yet, same as my ford galaxy. No option at moment, not even a hybrid

Personally if it was me with those requirements I would buy A6 Avant

Funny enough test driving an A6 this morning 😀

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Who is getting pi**y, you want electric car with load space then buy a electric van.....Nissan sell one, others as well....VW haveone

300 mile range?
You can need load space and not resort to the offerings you mention.

Shefwedfan

U

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Thierry/mike another new alias? Ahh I joke

So if you don’t want a Bev and haven’t test drove a Bev? you are currently posting on a electric car forum why you don’t want a Bev? That correct?

The topic is where are EVs for the masses.
The discussion has clarified that they don't exist as yet.
One can participate in EV discussion without actually currently wanting one.
As I've said, when EV options are available to meet my needs and budget they'll be considered.
I certainly don't want a ****ty Nissan van BEV.
You seem to be getting p1ssy TBH.

volchitsa

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have said it a few times, if you don’t want to buy an electric car you can come up with 100 reasons not to...

If you do want to buy one it is fairly simple to go out and buy one, plenty available in all price brackets

Absolutely, but my mini rant last night (sorry, just triggered by the title, that made me go "YES!!") wasn't a criticism of EVs, more a complaint about policy or rather lack of it.

Leaving something so important to market forces seems dangerously frivolous to me at this stage but otoh I'm not happy that consumers are always the cash cow.

I feel like it's being driven by companies who aren't so much interested in replacing petrol/diesel cars so much as in creating yet another niche market for themselves, but when governments do get involved, it's only ever by increasing taxes on consumers. Which, like tobacco taxes, risks becoming such an important part of government revenue that finally they too are not that keen on actually foregoing it : tomorrow maybe, but never today.

Not sure what the solution is, but I really feel that current policy is far too passive in terms of market economics. EVs are being allowed to become just another niche. I don't think that's good enough.

I'm not sure what should be done instead though - maybe use some of the tax take from petrol sales to facilitate EVs whether by research or installing chargers or whatever (but not just allowing companies to use government refunds to keep the prices high, which is the risk with government intervention).

What else? Any suggestions? And why is there no Henry Ford of EVs yet? I suspect that won't happen for as long as other types of cars remain the default option, which of course was very different when Ford set up shop.

troyzer

volchitsa wrote: »

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have said it a few times, if you don’t want to buy an electric car you can come up with 100 reasons not to...

If you do want to buy one it is fairly simple to go out and buy one, plenty available in all price brackets

Absolutely, but my mini rant last night (sorry, just triggered by the title, that made me go "YES!!") wasn't a criticism of EVs, more a complaint about policy or rather lack of it.

Leaving something so important to market forces seems dangerously frivolous to me at this stage but otoh I'm not happy that consumers are always the cash cow.

I feel like it's being driven by companies who aren't so much interested in replacing petrol/diesel cars so much as in creating yet another niche market for themselves, but when governments do get involved, it's only ever by increasing taxes on consumers. Which, like tobacco taxes, risks becoming such an important part of government revenue that finally they too are not that keen on actually foregoing it : tomorrow maybe, but never today.

Not sure what the solution is, but I really feel that current policy is far too passive in terms of market economics. EVs are being allowed to become just another niche. I don't think that's good enough.

I'm not sure what should be done instead though - maybe use some of the tax take from petrol sales to facilitate EVs whether by research or installing chargers or whatever (but not just allowing companies to use government refunds to keep the prices high, which is the risk with government intervention).

What else? Any suggestions? And why is there no Henry Ford of EVs yet? I suspect that won't happen for as long as other types of cars remain the default option, which of course was very different when Ford set up shop.

EVs already come with huge tax incentives and are still very expensive.

You can't just keep throwing taxpayers money at it, especially when only well to do people can afford them.

At some point it just becomes a handout to wealthy people to buy a new car.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

EVs already come with huge tax incentives and are still very expensive.

You can't just keep throwing taxpayers money at it, especially when only well to do people can afford them.

At some point it just becomes a handout to wealthy people to buy a new car.

I haven’t 2 pence to rub together

StereoSound

The government will be taxing electric vehicles more in the future with new tax system proposals which has been drummed about. So enjoy the freedom while you have it. I think prices will balance themselves out and may not really be any financial benefit going electric for awhile yet. You may be forced into it for other reasons though. Electric being so beneficial to the environment is nice but you will still pay through the nose to tax them in the near future. Government has to make money and won't give you free motoring. I'll hold off electric for the next several years I think.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I haven’t 2 pence to rub together

Quite likely. You no doubt have a decent income coming into the house though.....

Shefwedfan

volchitsa wrote: »

Absolutely, but my mini rant last night (sorry, just triggered by the title, that made me go "YES!!") wasn't a criticism of EVs, more a complaint about policy or rather lack of it.

Leaving something so important to market forces seems dangerously frivolous to me at this stage but otoh I'm not happy that consumers are always the cash cow.

I feel like it's being driven by companies who aren't so much interested in replacing petrol/diesel cars so much as in creating yet another niche market for themselves, but when governments do get involved, it's only ever by increasing taxes on consumers. Which, like tobacco taxes, risks becoming such an important part of government revenue that finally they too are not that keen on actually foregoing it : tomorrow maybe, but never today.

Not sure what the solution is, but I really feel that current policy is far too passive in terms of market economics. EVs are being allowed to become just another niche. I don't think that's good enough.

I'm not sure what should be done instead though - maybe use some of the tax take from petrol sales to facilitate EVs whether by research or installing chargers or whatever (but not just allowing companies to use government refunds to keep the prices high, which is the risk with government intervention).

What else? Any suggestions? And why is there no Henry Ford of EVs yet? I suspect that won't happen for as long as other types of cars remain the default option, which of course was very different when Ford set up shop.

The problem with the government is they have no "balls". Sorry for rude language but best description. They give grants on electric cars but don't invest in a network to support the electric cars. Very few people are aware the "charging network" is free, they do know it is sh*t.



Also they do not target the rivals. So every other country is locking down on diesel, Ireland? nothing? we have a situation that UK wants rid of diesel and we are buying them by the truck load.



What they need to do(some already planned for this year)

Keep the current incentives in place for new cars. Keep the current incentives in place for import.

Change the network to chargeable to stop people using as alternative to home and also blocking - planned for this year

Invest in charging hubs(4-5 fast chargers per site) - planned for this year
Promote planning so all new houses include home chargers


Bring diesel level with petrol in terms of tax. Currently diesel is collecting 10 cent less per ltr. Do this over a 3 year plan
Increase VRT on diesel and straight petrol to stop the import of these vehicles. PHEV/Hybrid/Electric will be cheaper and better to import

New cars are based on WLTP, the car companies are calling for the government to change their rules so they can keep the tax down on their dirty engine. Do not do this. Let the companies clean up their acts.

Encourage the press to stop with the bad articles on electric for no reason apart from it is something new. The hatched job done on some cars is alarming
Release information to public on average drives etc....make them aware that they dont need 500 miles range....or the famous Dublin to Cork and back without charging


All of those are simple to do and actually wont cost anything, if anything the increase on diesel will help the books



In terms of a Henry Ford of BEV, well VW think they will be exactly that. But they won't release till Q4 2019 and 2020. But they plan to have 27 models available across VW and 300 within 5 years. No other manufacturer has such a developed plan

peposhi

Augeo wrote: »

U
The topic is where are EVs for the masses.
The discussion has clarified that they don't exist as yet.
One can participate in EV discussion without actually currently wanting one.
As I've said, when EV options are available to meet my needs and budget they'll be considered.
I certainly don't want a ****ty Nissan van BEV.
You seem to be getting p1ssy TBH.

Could you give me an example of a car for the masses that I could compare to what I drive and basically have a good idea of what an EV for masses should be - size, range, boot size, specs - anything that could help me picture your idea for a car. Please.

volchitsa

troyzer wrote: »

EVs already come with huge tax incentives and are still very expensive.

You can't just keep throwing taxpayers money at it, especially when only well to do people can afford them.

At some point it just becomes a handout to wealthy people to buy a new car.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. There needs to be something a lot more active than just taking money from taxpayers because that often just propos the high prices up.

The post below you makes some really good points but which I need to read in more detail.

mloc123

ewj1978 wrote: »

yes people can buy 10k cars. Would i buy a new 3 cylinder car for 10k?
No.
The thought of puttering along in some cheap econobox with the pulling power of a dead hedgehog.

VW 1.2l 3 cylinder now produces 125bhp... More than a mid 00s 2l petrol did.

Shefwedfan

volchitsa wrote: »

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. There needs to be something a lot more active than just taking money from taxpayers because that often just propos the high prices up.

The post below you makes some really good points but which I need to read in more detail.

If you ask electric car drivers they don't want anymore incentives

They have asked for a long period to introduce fee's for charging so it could be self sustained and actually generate revenue. They don't want the government to pay. The fact the government was providing free charging restricted private companies from entering the Irish market.



Remember electric car users are tax payers as well. Everyone knows that the low tax and benefits will not last long.



The carrot approach has been used for 7-8 years now and hasn't worked. The stick approach should be implemented. Unfortune it has come to this. I have listed above some idea's....



I think most combustion fuel drivers just think electric car drivers want free hand out. We don't, well I don't. I want to be able to walk around Dublin without choking on fumes

beauf

Shefwedfan wrote: »

...
The carrot approach has been used for 7-8 years now and hasn't worked. The stick approach should be implemented. ...

The high cost of entry is too high a barrier.

Regardless of any stick.

peposhi

peposhi wrote: »

Could you give me an example of a car for the masses that I could compare to what I drive and basically have a good idea of what an EV for masses should be - size, range, boot size, specs - anything that could help me picture your idea for a car. Please.

It's one that sells in significant numbers.....like a golf, focus, Octavia etc. Even a 520d.... plenty of them about.... Passat ..... a car that loads of people buy.
There's no EV selling such significant numbers in Ireland.
Presumably as one doesn't exist (ie doesn't suit the needs and wants of enough folk) or is too expensive or doesn't appeal to people....despite being heavily incentivised.

Ladyinthedark

What happens if it’s involved in a crash is it a write off ?? Who fixes it if there’s a fault ?? What the tax e.g Volkswagen up for example

Shefwedfan

beauf wrote: »

The high cost of entry is too high a barrier.

Regardless of any stick.

New cars in 2018, the most popular
Tucson
Qashqai
Focus
Golf
Octavia
Tiguan
Sportage
Yaris
Fiesta
C-HR

Majority of those cars are in the price range of electric. So saying price is an issue is incorrect.

I do admit choice is poor at the moment and I said that 2 years ago when I first bought electric, unfortunately it has not massively improved but price is not the issue

Shefwedfan

Ladyinthedark wrote: »

What happens if it’s involved in a crash is it a write off ?? Who fixes it if there’s a fault ?? What the tax e.g Volkswagen up for example

A electric car is a car, just with electric engine. Insurance acts the same as a combustion engine

They also get serviced by garages, albeit the service is normally software update but body repairs etc can be done

Tax on all electric is the same....120 or 180, whatever the lowest is

Andy From Sligo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A electric car is a car, just with electric engine. Insurance acts the same as a combustion engine

They also get serviced by garages, albeit the service is normally software update but body repairs etc can be done

Tax on all electric is the same....120 or 180, whatever the lowest is

please dont shoot me down (got shot down in another thread because someone thought I was comparing 2 different countries together and promoting UK .. but I really wasnt , honest!) - but is the UK car tax exempt on EV's and Ireland charge €120+ ?

I was only seeing if I had my facts right and understood it correctly, thats all it was - no hidden agenda.

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

beauf wrote: »

The high cost of entry is too high a barrier.

Regardless of any stick.

New cars in 2018, the most popular
Tucson
Qashqai
Focus
Golf
Octavia
Tiguan
Sportage
Yaris
Fiesta
C-HR

Majority of those cars are in the price range of electric. So saying price is an issue is incorrect.

I do admit choice is poor at the moment and I said that 2 years ago when I first bought electric, unfortunately it has not massively improved but price is not the issue

Cost isn't the issue so much as value for money.

Of course there are electric cars the same price as some of those listed above, but you always take a huge hit on trim.

beauf

Shefwedfan wrote: »

New cars in 2018, the most popular
Tucson
Qashqai
Focus
Golf
Octavia
Tiguan
Sportage
Yaris
Fiesta
C-HR

Majority of those cars are in the price range of electric. So saying price is an issue is incorrect.

I do admit choice is poor at the moment and I said that 2 years ago when I first bought electric, unfortunately it has not massively improved but price is not the issue

In the price range what does that mean.

Base Golf =Base Zoe?

beauf

troyzer wrote: »

Cost isn't the issue so much as value for money.

Of course there are electric cars the same price as some of those listed above, but you always take a huge hit on trim.

Thats probably better way of putting it.

liamog

troyzer wrote: »

Cost isn't the issue so much as value for money.

Of course there are electric cars the same price as some of those listed above, but you always take a huge hit on trim.

Yeah we've taken a huge hit on our Ioniq, bought for 26k in Jan '17 after doing 40,000km its probably worth about 24k it's really difficult to cope with €2,000 of depreciation on top of the €4,800 we've saved on running costs compared to our old Grande Punto.

troyzer

liamog wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Cost isn't the issue so much as value for money.

Of course there are electric cars the same price as some of those listed above, but you always take a huge hit on trim.

Yeah we've taken a huge hit on our Ioniq, bought for 26k in Jan '17 after doing 40,000km its probably worth about 24k it's really difficult to cope with €2,000 of depreciation on top of the €4,800 we've saved on running costs compared to our old Grande Punto.

Maybe you don't know what trim means.

I'm talking about the difference in luxury between an electric car and an ICE car of the same price.

The Ioniq for example is a compact or C class car alongside the likes of the Golf, Octavia, Astra and i30.

The base all electric model starts at €30k sticker. The base of the cars I just listed start at €21k, €22k, €22k and €20k.

For €30k you could get a Passat or a Corolla hybrid. You could also get a Mondeo or an entry level A3.

You are paying an absolutely staggering premium for what's under the bonnet compared to equivalent ICE cars which for some people is fine but most people will never spend the same money and get so much less car along with all of the other problems with electric.

You need only look at the Kona to realise the premium you're paying. The base, IEC Kona starts at €21k, the electric version of the EXACT same car starts at €37k.

And a reminder that all of this includes a huge tax incentive, in reality the cars are even further apart if left just to the market.

Nothing is going to change in a big way until this is fixed.

unkel

troyzer wrote: »

Maybe you don't know what trim means.

I'm talking about the difference in luxury between an electric car and an ICE car of the same price.

The Ioniq for example is a compact or C class car alongside the likes of the Golf, Octavia, Astra and i30.

The base all electric model starts at €30k sticker. The base of the cars I just listed start at €21k, €22k, €22k and €20k.

Trim right, ok. So we are going to concentrate on specs. I paid 25k on the road for my Ioniq with metallic paint. It has automatic transmission, level 2 autonomous driving (auto steering and auto cruise control), heated seats, park distance control (back), satnav with touch screen, Apple carplay / android auto. Wireless phone charging, auto lights, auto wipers, all LED lights, emergency autonomous braking and does 0-60 in a bit over 8s

Give me an example of a similar spec, similar size ICE car like you listed for significantly cheaper money?

Open and honest challenge. I'm not going to be anal and say: ha! but the car you mentioned doesn't have heated seats, or the like. Just a high spec car like above, if needs be you need to tick a few optional extras

peposhi

Augeo wrote: »

It's one that sells in significant numbers.....like a golf, focus, Octavia etc. Even a 520d.... plenty of them about.... Passat ..... a car that loads of people buy.
There's no EV selling such significant numbers in Ireland.
Presumably as one doesn't exist (ie doesn't suit the needs and wants of enough folk) or is too expensive or doesn't appeal to people....despite being heavily incentivised.

I see...

Have you checked the prices of new Golf/Focus/Octavia lately?
A “bog standard” SV Leaf would cost you less than any of them once you add all the bells and whistles - parking sensors, auto headlights, auto wipers, tinted glass, reverse camera, navigation, additional USB ports and etc. All small things that once you add to the cost of your paddy spec ICE the price zooms up. And yet that comes as standard with your Leaf...
The EVs are not selling because they are not a mass car. They are not selling because a mass amount of people don’t know/are afraid of the technology, don’t want to risk, religiously stick to the “what if I need to go from Cork to Letterkenny and back”, are simply misinformed buy plenty of dealers who DO NOT want to sell EV (no service money coming regularly once the car leaves the yard), and mark my word - an avalanche is coming within the next few years when lots of consumers will open their eyes.
One of the reasons I was able to afford a brand new EV was the savings I made on fuel, service, maintenance vs my 12yo Avant. It was costing me more to run an old car than to get myself a brand new EV... talk to me about affordability.

And yes, there are issues with the charging infreasteutire, queues at chargers. And yes the ere. Or many models out there but they are all coming....

beauf

unkel wrote: »

Trim right, ok. So we are going to concentrate on specs. I paid 25k on the road for my Ioniq with metallic paint....

What is the new price of that 25k car?

beauf

peposhi wrote: »

I see...

Have you checked the prices of new Golf/Focus/Octavia lately?
A “bog standard” SV Leaf would cost you less than any of them once you add all the bells and whistles - parking sensors, auto headlights, auto wipers, tinted glass, reverse camera, navigation, additional USB ports and etc....

You are getting them in the base model because its base price no? What is it 30k on the road?

peposhi

peposhi wrote: »

I see...

Have you checked the prices of new Golf/Focus/Octavia lately?
A “bog standard” SV Leaf would cost you less than any of them once you add all the bells and whistles - parking sensors, auto headlights, auto wipers, tinted glass, reverse camera, navigation, additional USB ports and etc. All small things that once you add to the cost of your paddy spec ICE the price zooms up. And yet that comes as standard with your Leaf...
The EVs are not selling because they are not a mass car. They are not selling because a mass amount of people don’t know/are afraid of the technology, don’t want to risk, religiously stick to the “what if I need to go from Cork to Letterkenny and back”, are simply misinformed buy plenty of dealers who DO NOT want to sell EV (no service money coming regularly once the car leaves the yard), and mark my word - an avalanche is coming within the next few years when lots of consumers will open their eyes.
One of the reasons I was able to afford a brand new EV was the savings I made on fuel, service, maintenance vs my 12yo Avant. It was costing me more to run an old car than to get myself a brand new EV... talk to me about affordability.

And yes, there are issues with the charging infreasteutire, queues at chargers. And yes the ere. Or many models out there but they are all coming....

Funnily enough it's apparent that you don't see.
I mentioned a 520d, that's a 45k car (ish) that sells in larger numbers than all EVs combined multiple times over.
I mentioned more than price as reasons folk don't seem to WANT EVs.....shall I quote it for you ?

There are infinite examples of somewhat functional sh1t that one could debate was for the masses but never sold in any numbers.

No doubt when the avalanche you mention occurs the big sellers won't be the current crop of models but BETTER cars that are more suitable to people's wants & needs.