6 Nations 2019 Build Up thread

mangobob

Flood gates opening now.

Amprodude

mangobob wrote: »

Flood gates opening now.

It will come down to the final day. If Wales fail to beat Ireland England will have a plain sail to the championship. Ireland havent a hope now and I bet we may struggle to beat France tomorrow.

Larbre34

What was that italian duffer at.

Eod100

Amprodude wrote: »

It will come down to the final day. If Wales fail to beat Ireland England will have a plain sail to the championship. Ireland havent a hope now and I bet we may struggle to beat France tomorrow.

A tbp for England vs Italy was inevitable. Realistically it was an uphill battle for Championship after losing to England

TCM

I've always been a fan of French rugby. Not as flamboyant as in years past. However I do expect the french aristocrats to brush aside the Irish challenge tomorrow.

The Lost Sheep

Amprodude wrote: »

Throw Italy out of this competition they are dreadful.

Throwing them out for being poor? No.
We need 6 teams and Italians are 6th best in europe.
What benefit does italians not being in tournament give us?

Exclamation Marc

What is the point of Italy in this tournament at this stage.

Their sole contribution has been denying Wales a bonus point.

TCM

TCM wrote: »

I've always been a fan of French rugby. Not as flamboyant as in years past. However I do expect the french aristocrats to brush aside the Irish challenge tomorrow.

Tell us why?

Is it their recent track record against us or their recent track record in general? Is it their away record?

Exclamation Marc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Throwing them out for being poor? No.
We need 6 teams and Italians are 6th best in europe.
What benefit does italians not being in tournament give us?

Fair points but what benefit does Italy being in it have either? A nice trip to Rome?

The Lost Sheep

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Fair points but what benefit does Italy being in it have either? A nice trip to Rome?

They benefit more than being on outside. They should be playing the Georgias, Romanias, Russias more(though we and other 6 nations sides should as well) but they do bring plenty.

thebaz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They benefit more than being on outside. They should be playing the Georgias, Romanias, Russias more(though we and other 6 nations sides should as well) but they do bring plenty.

I do agree ther should be 6 teams in it - but I am bored watching Italy get hammered game after game, they should be forced to play the winners of the tier below 6 nations, probably Georgia , for a 6 nations place - they probably would win , but why are the so scared to do so ??

money I suppose, but losing should have consequences, a competive victory might actually help Italian rugby -

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

I do agree ther should be 6 teams in it - but I am bored watching Italy get hammered game after game, they should be forced to play the winners of the tier below 6 nations, probably Georgia, they probably would win, but why are the so scared to do so??

money I suppose, but losing should have consequences, a competive victory might actually help Italian rugby -

Italy played Georgia in November. Italy won 28-17.

Eod100

thebaz wrote: »

I do agree ther should be 6 teams in it - but I am bored watching Italy get hammered game after game, they should be forced to play the winners of the tier below 6 nations, probably Georgia , they probably would win , but why are the so scared to do so ??

money I suppose, but losing should have consequences, a competive victory might actually help Italian rugby -

Gets messy though, how do you plan alternate home/away fixtures with relegation?

Don't think there's any appetite for it really besides practical obstacles

Exclamation Marc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Italy played Georgia in November. Italy won 28-17.

One win doesn't mean that they would be roundly better than Georgia in the competition. Its obviously a tricky problem to solve but Italy games aren't even enjoyable to watch anymore and neither Italy nor any team they face have any takeaways from the matches.

I just don't see at this point what Italy even get out of it, outside of a cash windfall. Their players and fans must be miserable spending half the international rugby calendar getting thoroughly hockeyed. Their coaching ticket must be worn out.

Italy have lost their last 21 Six Nations games.

The Lost Sheep

Eod100 wrote: »

Gets messy though, how do you plan alternate home/away fixtures with relegation?

Don't think there's any appetite for it really besides practical obstacles

Like a large number of league competitions worldwide do. The promoted side takes same fixtures as the 6th side. Ireland play France/England home every second year if Ireland are relegated you just replace them in their fixtures with whoevers promoted.
There isnt any appetite from the existing nations who have only their interests at heart and dont care about potential for growth as losing out on even a years 6 nations income would wreck their income overall potentially for long time

thebaz

Eod100 wrote: »

Gets messy though, how do you plan alternate home/away fixtures with relegation?

Don't think there's any appetite for it really besides practical obstacles

but at what point should losing every game not have consequences - I'm a rugby fan, and had no interest in watching this English/Italian game - Italy national team has not been competive since the 90's , ther should be consequences for 20 years of continuous defeat in the 6 Nation - think a 2 legged play off , would be good for the game - probably never happen - but should.

The Lost Sheep

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

One win doesn't mean that they would be roundly better than Georgia in the competition. Its obviously a tricky problem to solve but Italy games aren't even enjoyable to watch anymore and neither Italy nor any team they face have any takeaways from the matches.

I just don't see at this point what Italy even get out of it, outside of a cash windfall. Their players and fans must be miserable spending half the international rugby calendar getting thoroughly hockeyed. Their coaching ticket must be worn out.

Italy have lost their last 21 Six Nations games.

And Georgia or anyone else isnt going to be any better.
There isnt anything to be gained from Italy not competing as there isnt another side to replace them who would be any bit better and going back to 5 nations isnt the answe.
Would you have said same about Ireland and whats point of them competing in the 5 nations back in the 90s? We didnt finish higher than 4th in that entire decade.

Exclamation Marc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Would you have said same about Ireland and whats point of them competing in the 5 nations back in the 90s? We didnt finish higher than 4th in that entire decade.

That's a very fair point. I think theres a small benefit of the doubt you give Ireland coming out of the amateur era but nonetheless, that's a very fair comment. But Ireland DID get better in time.

So with that in mind, at what point do you make a change? If Italy spend the next five or ten years being hockeyed, should they still remain? Do they have an indefinite right to remain if they bring nothing to the table?

The Lost Sheep

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

That's a very fair point. I think theres a small benefit of the doubt you give Ireland coming out of the amateur era but nonetheless, that's a very fair comment. But Ireland DID get better in time.

So with that in mind, at what point do you make a change? If Italy spend the next five or ten years being hockeyed, should they still remain? Do they have an indefinite right to remain if they bring nothing to the table?

We do need to expand the number of teams but that can only start with Ireland, Italy and rest 6 nations playing Georgia, Romania, Russia and rest of ENC sides more often both at home and travelling to play them in their own countries.
I dont think there is any benefit of doubt you should be giving Ireland. You have to look at financial aspect of it as well. Can Georgians offer much more than Italians off the pitch as well as on the pitch.

thebaz

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Do they have an indefinite right to remain if they bring nothing to the table?

They bring a bi-annual holiday to Rome for some - I really would like to see Italy do well, and root for them in most games , but I think at this stage they need some incentive to improve - the possibilty of relegation or even relegation play-off.

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

They bring a bi-annual holiday to Rome for some - I really would like to see Italy do well, and root for them in most games , but I think at this stage they need some incentive to improve - the possibilty of relegation or even relegation play-off.

They played and beat the side most would consider the next best in Europe in an unofficial relegation playoff in November. If Georgia had won the shouts for change would be louder.

Exclamation Marc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We do need to expand the number of teams but that can only start with Ireland, Italy and rest 6 nations playing Georgia, Romania, Russia and rest of ENC sides more often both at home and travelling to play them in their own countries.
I dont think there is any benefit of doubt you should be giving Ireland. You have to look at financial aspect of it as well. Can Georgians offer much more than Italians off the pitch as well as on the pitch.

One game isn't conclusive proof that Georgia can't do better than Italy in this competition.

thebaz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They played and beat the side most would consider the next best in Europe in an unofficial relegation playoff in November. If Georgia had won the shouts for change would be louder.

I believe the game was played in Italy , a 2 legged affair would be a fairer indication - I dont think its good for the game to have a team continuosly losing in a tournament , with zero consequences - and as said really would like Italian rugby to progress , but its not.

Heymans

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Like a large number of league competitions worldwide do. The promoted side takes same fixtures as the 6th side. Ireland play France/England home every second year if Ireland are relegated you just replace them in their fixtures with whoevers promoted.
There isnt any appetite from the existing nations who have only their interests at heart and dont care about potential for growth as losing out on even a years 6 nations income would wreck their income overall potentially for long time

And that’s the backward inward thinking that leads to stagnation. Those teams will never be competitive if they are given nothing to play for. It’s like the boss in work never giving any promotions because he’s wary of other interests taking over his business. What about the poor workers who show up day in day out. It’s what kept the royal powers in Europe in power for so long with just a few people generation after generation getting the same opportunities and the vast majority of people in poverty. Open it up.

troyzer

Heymans wrote: »

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Like a large number of league competitions worldwide do. The promoted side takes same fixtures as the 6th side. Ireland play France/England home every second year if Ireland are relegated you just replace them in their fixtures with whoevers promoted.
There isnt any appetite from the existing nations who have only their interests at heart and dont care about potential for growth as losing out on even a years 6 nations income would wreck their income overall potentially for long time

And that’s the backward inward thinking that leads to stagnation. Those teams will never be competitive if they are given nothing to play for. It’s like the boss in work never giving any promotions because he’s wary of other interests taking over his business. What about the poor workers who show up day in day out. It’s what kept the royal powers in Europe in power for so long with just a few people generation after generation getting the same opportunities and the vast majority of people in poverty. Open it up.

But Italy are ****e and have been in the competition for nearly 20 years. There is absolutely no reason to think Georgia would be any different.

Heymans

troyzer wrote: »

But Italy are ****e and have been in the competition for nearly 20 years. There is absolutely no reason to think Georgia would be any different.

But if there was relegation and promotion to and from the 6 nations it would lead to the growth of the world game and wouldn’t keep it an inbred backward British empire game. The 6 nations is basically a British isles competition. Do you know how backward that is for an Irishman? The Lions is a hark back to the days of the empire. It’s outdated.

mod - banned

The Lost Sheep

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

One game isn't conclusive proof that Georgia can't do better than Italy in this competition.

Yes but it

thebaz wrote: »

I believe the game was played in Italy , a 2 legged affair would be a fairer indication - I dont think its good for the game to have a team continuosly losing in a tournament, with zero consequences - and as said really would like Italian rugby to progress, but its not.

Possibly would be a fairer indication but that they played them at all was something. Georgia need more tests against all 6 nations sides. Italians were getting games against all the 5 nations before they were admitted to the tournament. Same needs to happen with Georgia.

Heymans wrote: »

And that’s the backward inward thinking that leads to stagnation. Those teams will never be competitive if they are given nothing to play for. It’s like the boss in work never giving any promotions because he’s wary of other interests taking over his business. What about the poor workers who show up day in day out. It’s what kept the royal powers in Europe in power for so long with just a few people generation after generation getting the same opportunities and the vast majority of people in poverty. Open it up.

No it isnt. Just opening up tournament doesnt help Georgia or Italy if neither are suited to yoyoing between rugby championship and 6 nations.

troyzer wrote: »

But Italy are ****e and have been in the competition for nearly 20 years. There is absolutely no reason to think Georgia would be any different.

Kind of agree.

Heymans wrote: »

But if there was relegation and promotion to and from the 6 nations it would lead to the growth of the world game and wouldn’t keep it an inbred backward British empire game. The 6 nations is basically a British isles competition. Do you know how backward that is for an Irishman? The Lions is a hark back to the days of the empire. It’s outdated.

It would but you have to look at financials of things as well.

sydthebeat

Have Georgia even beaten a six Nations team before?

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

Have Georgia even beaten a six Nations team before?

No. But only played any of the sides in six nations 13 times between all 6 countries in full tests.

thebaz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes but it

Possibly would be a fairer indication but that they played them at all was something. Georgia need more tests against all 6 nations sides.

Possibly ??
be much different playing in Tbilisi , which can get quite intimadating - and Italys away record is so poor ;

Why is it something that Italy would play them -
Do Italy actually feal its beneath them to play them, when they are both at same level

joseywhales

I don't understand the argument that Georgia haven't proved that they are good enough to warrant a playoff. If they are not good enough then they will lose to Italy every year and won't make promotion, so there is nothing to worry about.

PTH2009

for us too win (an undeserved imo) championship we will need too win our next 2 games with BPs and hope Scotland beat England

PTH2009

PTH2009 wrote: »

for us too win (an undeserved imo) championship we will need too win our next 2 games with BPs and hope Scotland beat England

Fully resigned to an at best second place.

A loss to Wales would be disappointing but you wouldn't have bet against it at the start of the tournament. I keep reading about "underestimating Wales" but I rarely see people underestimate Wales, certainly not recently and we've never had a reliable record against them which most people recognise.

It's the England game that has unravelled us this year.

mangobob

Deleted User wrote: »

Fully resigned to an at best second place.

I would be delighted with a second place finish at this stage tbh. I dont expect us to get it.

It's the England game that has unravelled us this year.

We really demonstrated the truth of the old adage that you can't win a Grand Slam on the first day, but you can lose it. In truth, we lost everything after that game - Grand Slam, championship and triple crown.

swiwi_

Last time Scotland beat England at twickenham was 1983.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

Last time Scotland beat England at twickenham was 1983.

Yeah, that isn’t going to happen. The title will go to either England or Wales. Wales have to be favourites at this stage. But if we beat Wales, then England will know any win at all will see them lift the trophy. They won’t slip up. It would be an enormous shock if they did.

jr86

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, that isn’t going to happen. The title will go to either England or Wales. Wales have to be favourites at this stage. But if we beat Wales, then England will know any win at all will see them lift the trophy. They won’t slip up. It would be an enormous shock if they did.

The only hope really was if they were to get white line fever and fail to get 4 tries. As it transpires any win will be enough, and I'd expect Farrell to just tick away at taking 3 pointers

t8010789

jr86 wrote: »

The only hope really was if they were to get white line fever and fail to get 4 tries. As it transpires any win will be enough, and I'd expect Farrell to just tick away at taking 3 pointers

I don't even think he'll need to be worry about taking three pointers. Scotland are so depleted that I can't see anything but a bonus point win for England.

Anjobe

Don't be so pessimistic, all Ireland need to do is beat Wales by 80 points or so to put some pressure on England. Should be simple for the 2nd best team in the world, shouldn't it?

Dickie10

id say we will be beaten but should be a cracker of a game im goin for something like 26-34. first time ever i hope ireland get beat just so england dont win it, plus i like wales there a great rugby nation, gatland is an unbeliveable manager and he started the golden years for us so hopefully they win the grand slam. i think they were missing 10 or 11 strting players before the tournament. unreal if they win it

Anjobe

Dickie10 wrote: »

first time ever i hope ireland get beat just so england dont win it

Cutting off your nose to spite your face? If Ireland lose to Wales then the notion that they are the top team in the Northern hemisphere, best placed to challenge New Zealand at the World Cup will be well and truly nixed. The rankings are a bit of mystery, I admit, but I think Wales will move into 2nd if they win.

Eod100

Anjobe wrote: »

Cutting off your nose to spite your face? If Ireland lose to Wales then the notion that they are the top team in the Northern hemisphere, best placed to challenge New Zealand at the World Cup will be well and truly nixed. The rankings are a bit of mystery, I admit, but I think Wales will move into 2nd if they win.

We've a better win record vs NZ than Wales under JS! (albeit lower sample size for NZ games and Wales matches probably include warm up games)

Anjobe

Eod100 wrote: »

We've a better win record vs NZ than Wales under JS! (albeit lower sample size for NZ games and Wales matches probably include warm up games)

Yes, but recent form in sport is always more relevant that past form. There are really only three decent teams in the 6N, with not much between them. Ireland could hardly claim to be the best of these three when they have just been beaten by both of the other two.

Eod100

Anjobe wrote: »

Yes, but recent form in sport is always more relevant that past form. There are really only three decent teams in the 6N, with not much between them. Ireland could hardly claim to be the best of these three when they have just been beaten by both of the other two.

Wouldn't disagree with that guess only qualifier is that results in 6N in a RWC year not necessarily indication of form in RWC. Arguably 6N is tougher than a lot of pools in RWCs. Aim should still be to beat Wales of course and don't think anyone would want us to lose just so England don't win Championship

joseywhales

Has anyone else noticed that it is really hard to get a yellow card or to get badly penalised this year.

Wales should have had a yellow and France could have had three.

The refs have a bias to try to keep teams in the game, not allow a YC dictate the result. Even after France got their YC, the substitute tighthead came straight on bored in at about 90 degrees in front of the ref and the ref allowed play on, as if he felt like he had penalised france enough. He seemed very reluctant to penalise the team that was being totally dominated. Are we also to believe that out of the 3 successive penalties he did give at the 5m scrum, that none of them were likely to result in a try if the offending payer were removed from the play? I also notice the refs have no memory, there can be a warning in the 22, a relieving kick, 10 minutes later there can be another penalty in the 22 and the penalty clock is somehow reset, happened over halftime in the french game. Also i notice that if advantage is played and a team scores a try, even if the opposition commit another foul during the play, the ref does not come back to YC. It's as though he is just trying to keep games as competitive as possible. If that first half had been strictly and consistently reffed, France could have been down to 12 players.

It's all well and good but teams will adapt to become more cynical again, scrums and mauls will collapse all day, rucks will be illegally slowed down etc.

Anjobe

Dickie10 wrote: »

first time ever i hope ireland get beat just so england dont win it

Eod100 wrote: »

...don't think anyone would want us to lose just so England don't win Championship

Dickie10 wanted exactly that, my comments were just a warning to anyone engaging in that sort of begrudgery to be careful what they wish for.

Wheres Me Jumper?

looks like Van der Flier is out. groin.

O'Brien or Leavy i wonder?

Squidgy Black

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

looks like Van der Flier is out. groin.

O'Brien or Leavy i wonder?

Leavy I'd imagine. He's already been called up to the squad.

Wheres Me Jumper?

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Leavy I'd imagine. He's already been called up to the squad.

sure but i think The Tank is a more exciting player.

Amprodude

Surely Wales will sail to victory on Saturday and we be all on here talking how average this Irish team really is after all. Gatland won't let Ireland win and you can guarantee that.