E-Bikes

xxyyzz

Since I derailed another thread with an e-bike discussion, maybe we can continue on from here

E-bikes are becoming very capable, I shared the same skepticism as many here but the longer travel ones ride like mini-downhill rigs. As for the exercise side of things, we'll it depends - they are pedal assisted so you have to work for the motor to assist you. Someone put it to me, on our trail network you'd ride top top bottom once, maybe twice on a very good day in 2 hours. With an e-bike you'd do it 5 or 6 times in 2 hours putting in the same effort.

They also make previously impossibly steep climbs achievable which opens up whole new areas of mtb. The embn channel have done some very innovative things on them https://youtu.be/c7a8XjeDRGg

Biopace

Was a complete 'e-bikes are cheating' type, but f**k it they are amazing machines, not quite in the buying one frame yet, but maybe in a few years. They make going up a whole new world of fun!

Peter T

Haven't tried one myself but can see the appeal. I was slogging away in Ballyhoura a few weeks back when I heard someone coming up behind me, I pulled in and let them pass. Guy was on an electric rental from the trail center and when I saw the ground he was making it was hard not to be envious. Might give it a go some day and head out for the long loop on one. The idea of letting the motor do the work on the uphills is very appealing

ShauntaMetzel

E-bikes are electric ones but I am just afraid because of a waste of energy. Isn't it?

Hurrache

And they aren't that ungainly or ugly looking as being made out. I checked out a few before Christmas while browsing and they aren't as obviously carrying a motor and battery pack as they once were.

xxyyzz

I'm all for e-bikes, they would not replace a regular bike in my shed but it would be great to have one. I think I'd hold off a few years though because at the rate of development currently, the current crop will be obsolescent very quickly. I reckon the next logical development for e-mtb's is gearboxes. IMHO the extra torque that's being pushed through the drivetrain from the motor will probably wear out drivetrains very quickly, particularly the new skinnier 12 speed eagle chains. The gearbox would enable you to have a wider stronger chain with a single sprocket on the back. Pinion have done a lot of work on gearboxes but they have a long way to go, they look messy with all the cables and don't shift well under load so there is still a lot of development to be done there. Electronic shifting seems to be the obvious way forward.

Biopace

They are a great yoke for trailbuilders too, especially for hauling heavy tools up the trail.

Lemming

Biopace wrote: »

They are a great yoke for trailbuilders too, especially for hauling heavy tools up the trail.

Apparently gaining popularity with EWS photographers and the like for getting around the various courses from a podcast just before Christmas; can't recall if it was the hkt or downtime podcast series and who was being interviewed alas.

To touch on something Tenzor mentioned in the aforementioned derailled thread; the biggest constraint on e-mtbs is their cost at the moment. All of the e-MTB bikes that I trialled at the UK cycle show have been upwards of £5/6k in pricing (and I have a vague recollection at seeing a £7/8k price tag in the list). That trickles down to the most basic models too; so for what I might be able to spec from a 'normal' mtb for £2k I would be looking at about £3.5/4k for an equivalent spec. I like the idea of e-MTBs, but not at that price differential ...

... which is unfortunate as they would be great for getting more people out riding who might otherwise be discouraged through lack of fitness/injury/joint problems/etc, and for some of those people might eventually see them perhaps more confident to venture into 'cheaper', higher-end spec normal mtbs over time.

Note: all the prices I have mentioned are in GBP, so bump that up for equivalent € prices.

C3PO

I could understand buying one for a long commute or as you get on in years .... but just to save yourself from pedalling up the climbs .... not for me thanks!!

xxyyzz

C3PO wrote: »

I could understand buying one for a long commute or as you get on in years .... but just to save yourself from pedalling up the climbs .... not for me thanks!!

You'll always have to pedal with them, it's pedal assist, not throttle assist.

There will always be people who stick on boost mode and hey presto, another 250 watts on tap but they do open up possibilities of going up tech climbs that wouldn't have been considered before because they are too steep.

Tenzor07

Like C3PO says, eBikes would make more sense for commuting, though the 25kph limit is too restrictive, 45kph would make them a definite alternative to the car or motorcycle... However Irish/EU law hasn't caught up with technology and you still required Tax and Insurance for a higher speed ebike..

As for going up "tech climbs" eBikes aren't going to compensate for the lack of skill and or upper body strength, on a recent spin with a rider on an ebike I watched him fire the bike over a rooty kicker climb! Also didn't help him get any further up a steep muddy climb, not to mention having a 22kg+ bike to hold onto and push the rest of the way up the climb.

Also if you want to bring your eMTB on holidays then you have to carry the battery in your carry on luggage, plus pay extra for a 25KG+ bike excluding your bike bag.

Another factor is the cost, for the spec you'll pay an extra €1000 for an ebike as well as greater servicing costs.

siochain

if it gets people out and about in the mountains who otherwise wouldn't be able to it's brilliant. When the time comes I will definitely look into it.

xxyyzz

Tenzor07 wrote: »

As for going up "tech climbs" eBikes aren't going to compensate for the lack of skill and or upper body strength, .

I'm not saying they would make up for lack of skills, I'm saying that the person would not have considered the climb before because it was too steep and under pedal power alone it would not have been possible to get up it. Now with the extra power it makes them possible and the challenge is the technicality of the climb. This opens up new avenues of mtb which would not have been considered before.

skallywag

I guess it comes down to how you define 'mountain biking'. For me it's going up. The downhill is for rest after I've gone up (-:

So I'd like to use my own engine as long as that stays possible.

prunudo

As I said in the other thread, one of the main draws to mountain biking that I like is the mix of the climbing for fitness vs the reward of adrenaline rush on the descents.
I think I'd feel cheated with an ebike. I can see their benefits, especially if you're injured or people who can't manage the climbs.
I just feel in this era when we're supposed to be conscious of our impact on the environment and world why are we introducing more energy and resourse using products.

rizzodun

The thing about e-bikes, and e-mtb in particular, is that it's not just for the unfit, or lazy, or that age when you can no longer pedal uphill under your own power.

The true benefit of these are for those who would not be in the condition to bike normally.

Take Paul Basagoitia;

Multiple slopestyle/freeride event winner, and a guy who I would guess would never consider riding an e-bike before his crash at redbull rampage.

That crash shattered his T12 vertebrae, and left him unable to walk.
However, a year later he was back on a bike, while still undergoing work to regain his walking ability.

https://www.bikemag.com/news/paul-basagoitia-one-year-later/

https://dirtmountainbike.com/features/recover-faster-downhill-racing.html

Now, his instagram has posts like the one below, where he's on a a Scott e-bike and getting out and about rediscovering his love of biking.
There is no way this would be possible without e-bikes I think.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BrOBBSOFskj/?hl=en

This is why e-bikes are awesome, not for when I'm just old, or lazy, but when my legs just can't do what they used to, for whatever reason, and they allow me to get out, just like I do now.

Give his instagram a follow.

C3PO

I’ve no issues with e-bikes at all and I’m certainly not a “hater” but for me, at least half the point of cycling is the the fitness benefits that I get from it! I have tried an e-bike MTB and thoroughly enjoyed it but in much the same way as I enjoy riding a motorcycle trials or enduro bike ..... in my opinion it’s much closer to one of those than to a bicycle!

xxyyzz

Tenzor07 wrote: »

MODS: Can we have another new thread please entitled "Strava" :rolleyes:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109055333#post109055333

Wanderer78

C3PO wrote: »

Apart from the issue with straightened lines I can't see how "Strava users" will damage trails any more than anyone else!

wanna bet!

OSI wrote: »

Do they have a big flashing light on their backs saying "Strava" while you follow them around or something?

The exclusivity crap around Mountain Biking in Ireland is a big turn off for a lot of people and attitudes like this don't help.

lads for the love of god would you ever turn your strava devices off close to your homes, putting your life story on the internets gives opportunists, opportunities!

exclusivity! trails require continual hard work to create and maintain, placing all this info on the internets isnt exactly beneficial to all riders. some of biggest problems we have encounter has in fact been fellow mountain bikers, if you discover trails that arent on the internets, maybe dont post them on the internets, maybe the creators dont want that info online, by all means enjoy the trails but.....

CramCycle

New strava thread set up and posts moved there, lets move this thread back to e bikes, cheers

C3PO

OSI wrote: »

The exclusivity crap around Mountain Biking in Ireland is a big turn off for a lot of people and attitudes like this don't help.

No idea what you mean by this? Why don't you start a new thread and explain your viewpoint?

Tenzor07

C3PO wrote: »

No idea what you mean by this? Why don't you start a new thread and explain your viewpoint?

I second that, would like to hear what OSI means by this?

Alkers

Was up in Rostrevor on Saturday and my mate rented one of the full suss e-bikes. We were absolutely blown away with it, I thought it would be a bit of a gimmick but it was so enjoyable to use. Eco mode was perfect for climbing on single track, still with enough of a sensation through the pedals. Hit trail mode and you could have as much fun going up as coming back down! I don't particularly like climbing myself, bar maybe the satisfaction of doing it but this gave you a buzz going uphill. Then boost mode was pure savage, we managed 33km/hr going up a fire road while towing the other two of us!
I was seriously considering selling my motorcycle and using one of these to get around the place in general as well as far off-roading but the guys in the rental place said they've been having a lot of trouble with them. The rentals probably have a rough life in fairness but has anyone heard about these bikes realiability in general?

Tenzor07

E-Bikes are perfect for Rostrevor, that climb up is killer, and with an ebike you don't need an uplift so can go up and down on your own timetable..

I don't know what "having a lot of trouble with them" means, could be the brand of motor, or the bike design or how the rentals are treated, could be the extra wear and tear on drive trains due to the extra torque and people changing gears under high load....

Alkers

Tenzor07 wrote:

I don't know what "having a lot of trouble with them" means, could be the brand of motor, or the bike design or how the rentals are treated, could be the extra wear and tear on drive trains due to the extra torque and people changing gears under high load....

Didn't get into much detail with them but there were saying they've been very annoying to rent as people keep hsvung issues and having to come back. We had one error message at the start of that day but from then on it was flawless except for the dropper post but that's not specific to these bikes.

Do you know anyone who has one or have you heard of people having them and not having issues? I've only one data point to go off.

Tenzor07

Simona1986 wrote: »

Do you know anyone who has one or have you heard of people having them and not having issues? I've only one data point to go off.

I'm no expert in them, though from general info I would say that most of the big brand motors, Shimano Steps, Bosch, Yamaha are all quite reliable...

Rental bikes with and without the eMotor will always get a rough life anyways, i've seen people give the drivetrain on the eBike a fair oul crunching due to late shifting under load, it's something that is common enough when you're under power and suddenly the incline increases without you realising it.

Also due to the increased weight of the eBike you'd get more wear and tear on bearings and suspension so may shorten the time between servicing of the bikes..


But... LOADS of videos on YouTube testing eBikes etc....

shootermacg

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Like C3PO says, eBikes would make more sense for commuting, though the 25kph limit is too restrictive.

Is it a limit or a limit on the boost, could you in theory boost up to 25, then push on with pedals?

Peter T

shootermacg wrote: »

Is it a limit or a limit on the boost, could you in theory boost up to 25, then push on with pedals?

You'll have power assist up to 25kph but after that you're pedaling under your own steam

Tenzor07

shootermacg wrote: »

Is it a limit or a limit on the boost, could you in theory boost up to 25, then push on with pedals?

25kph - legal limit

https://www.greenaer.ie/product/stromer-st3-5/

Alkers

Tenzor07 wrote:

25kph - legal limit

Surely only applicable on road?

Tenzor07

Simona1986 wrote: »

Surely only applicable on road?

Noo noo sorry, when I say legal limit I mean restriction, the assistance cuts out at 25kph regardless of being on or off road.

C3PO

Tenzor07 wrote: »

25kph - legal limit

https://www.greenaer.ie/product/stromer-st3-5/

Not sure how obeyed this is though! Regularly passed on my commute by ebikes doing well in excess of 25kph!

Tenzor07

C3PO wrote: »

Not sure how obeyed this is though! Regularly passed on my commute by ebikes doing well in excess of 25kph!

I can't believe they are able to pass you out! But, nothing is impossible I'm sure!

Alkers

Tenzor07 wrote:

Noo noo sorry, when I say legal limit I mean restriction, the assistance cuts out at 25kph regardless of being on or off road.

What is the law? For example scramblers are not legal on road but if you're using one on private land it doesn't matter about tax, licence, insurance etc.
Is it not the same for these?

Tenzor07

Simona1986 wrote: »

What is the law? For example scramblers are not legal on road but if you're using one on private land it doesn't matter about tax, licence, insurance etc.
Is it not the same for these?

It's an EU standard law:

European Union directive 2002/24/EC exempts vehicles with the following definition from type approval: "Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25km/h (15.5mph) or if the cyclist stops pedaling." This is the de facto definition of an electrically assisted pedal cycle in the EU. As with all EU directives, individual member countries of the EU are left to implement the requirements in national legislation.

Alkers

Tenzor07 wrote:

It's an EU standard law:

Is type approval relevant for vehicles/cycles being used on private land? Genuine question, I'm not arguing with you!

Tenzor07

Simona1986 wrote: »

Is type approval relevant for vehicles/cycles being used on private land? Genuine question, I'm not arguing with you!

It's a bicycle with motorised assistance, not a motorcycle, therefore your question about using on or off road, public or private is completely irrelevant, a bicycle shop cannot supply a bicycle for sale that isn't compliant with the EU directive.

I'm not going to respond again on this matter, suggest using Google or contacting an eBike store such as https://www.greenaer.ie/

nelly17

I'm thinking of doing a TSDZ2 conversion on a Cube hard tail for a 45k mostly canal commute during the summer months, beats sitting in the car for the best part of 2 hours. I'll still keep a normal trail bike and get the best of both worlds.