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11 yr/old drag kid worshiped within LGBTQ community (Mod warning op)

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    #782
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Nobody? You’re talking nonsense. There’s plenty of debate in child development about the whole blank canvas theory, nature vs nurture, gender stereotypes and gender roles and all the rest of it. I raised my child with the assumption he was straight. So have most people throughout human history.

    “Perverse desires” :rolleyes:

    What does raising a toddler as straight exactly mean?


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    #783
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,754 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    seamus wrote: »
    How does orientation even come into it until they're a teenager?

    Sure, in some cases it becomes obvious that a kid is gay at an early age, but I'm not sure in what scenarios that even arises as a "thing" until they're actively out there trying to score.

    You say raised then under the "assumption" that they're straight, but what does that even look like? Do you reinforce straightness and correct any indication of homosexuality?

    I raise my kids under no particular assumption. They'll probably be straight, but we won't know until we get there. One of them often says that she's going to marry her best (female) friend, but every now and again also declares that one of the boys in her class is her boyfriend.

    So orientation doesn't matter. I'm not sure how we would act any differently if we "assumed" she was straight?


    It looks like pretty much the normal things you see every parent do seamus. It only looks different from the norm when parents are raising a child who isn’t straight or doesn’t conform to social expectations of their gender identity.


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    #784
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It looks like pretty much the normal things you see every parent do seamus. It only looks different from the norm when parents are raising a child who isn’t straight or doesn’t conform to social expectations of their gender identity.

    Can you be more specific?


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    #785
    DontThankMe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭DontThankMe


    Rennaws wrote: »
    He’ll be lucky if he makes it to adulthood at all let alone without serious emotional problems..

    They’ve destroyed that kid..

    You don't know this for sure though you're assuming that this is going to be the outcome in the future. Maybe he'll turn out fine and live a normal adult life for the person that he is, a negative outcome is not the only possibility here.


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    #786
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,754 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Vaughn Old-fashioned Superpower wrote: »
    Wtf


    I won’t ever let my child take the lead on who they want to be, because I’m their parent who is supposed to guide them. If other people would want to let their children take the lead, that’s their choice. Until they’re an adult though, I’m responsible for their welfare, not them.


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    #787
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It looks like pretty much the normal things you see every parent do seamus. It only looks different from the norm when parents are raising a child who isn’t straight or doesn’t conform to social expectations of their gender identity.
    So you're *not* raising him under the assumption that he's straight.

    You're raising him *as* straight.

    Which is a different thing. A parent who lets their boy wears dresses is not raising them as trans, or as gay. They're simply allowing the child to express themselves. They're making no assumptions at all.

    A parent who refuses to allow a boy to wear a dress is not "assuming" the child is straight, they are insisting on it.


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    #788
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    DontThankMe wrote: »
    You don't know this for sure though you're assuming that this is going to be the outcome in the future. Maybe he'll turn out fine and live a normal adult life for the person that he is, a negative outcome is not the only possibility here.

    It's not the only possible outcome, you are correct. But it is highly likely.

    11 year olds should be hanging out with other 11 year olds, not with adults, one of whom is a murderer.

    11 year olds shouldn't know what ket is, let alone make a snorting gesture when they hear it mentioned.

    11 year olds shouldn't be hanging out with people who have paintings with Rohypnol written on them.

    I think it's highly likely this kid has been exposed to far far too much for his age and that could well have a negative impact on him going forward. Obviously I can't prove this, but time will tell. And if I'm right, it's Desmond who will suffer.


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    #789
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It looks like pretty much the normal things you see every parent do seamus. It only looks different from the norm when parents are raising a child who isn’t straight or doesn’t conform to social expectations of their gender identity.

    If it was a little girl dancing for money in front of adult men the disgust would be the same. Likewise if it was a little boy dancing for adult women. The gender, much less the sexual orientation of the child is not what’s relevant here. What’s relevant is the fact a child is being exploited and sexualised for the entertainment of adults.


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    #790
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    DontThankMe wrote: »
    You don't know this for sure though you're assuming that this is going to be the outcome in the future.

    No I don’t know for sure which is why I phrased it the way I did. I do however base future predictions on past experiences and on that basis the odds are heavily stacked against this kid.

    Not because he might be gay or because he likes dressing in drag but because his parents have pimped him out in the manner in which they have removing any possibility for him to have a normal childhood.


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    #791
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I won’t ever let my child take the lead on who they want to be, because I’m their parent who is supposed to guide them. If other people would want to let their children take the lead, that’s their choice. Until they’re an adult though, I’m responsible for their welfare, not them.

    I think Shoesdayschild meant if a boy or a girl prefers and is happiest and has a great interest in things not "normally" associated with their sex as defined by the parent(s)


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    #792
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I’m actually not confusing gender and sexualisation. Sex is classified as either male or female and there’s no arguing with that from a biological standpoint. We attribute characteristics to humans based upon whether their sex is either male or female. Gender is a different thing again entirely.

    It’s that attribution of characteristics to biological sex which is exactly what gender is. A gender neutral upbringing wouldn’t force girls to play with dolls or boys to play with toy guns.

    Sex, the biology is not sexual intercourse the act, also called sex for short.

    when using the term sexualisation it is the latter that is referred to - seeing someone as a sexual object is seeing them as an object for sexual gratification not seeing them as biologically male or female.

    You must know this.


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    #793
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,754 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    It’s that attribution of characteristics to biological sex which is exactly what gender is. A gender neutral upbringing wouldn’t force girls to play with dolls or boys to play with toy guns.

    Sex, the biology is not sexual intercourse the act, also called sex for short.

    when using the term sexualisation it is the latter that is referred to - seeing someone as a sexual object is seeing them as an object for sexual gratification not seeing them as biologically male or female.

    You must know this.


    I do know of course where you’re coming from.

    I hope you didn’t think I meant sexualisation in terms of the physical act of sex itself? Maybe that’s where retro interpreted that I had perverse desires towards my own child? That’s fcuked up tbh, even for a sly dig.


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    #794
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    DontThankMe wrote: »
    You don't know this for sure though you're assuming that this is going to be the outcome in the future. Maybe he'll turn out fine and live a normal adult life for the person that he is, a negative outcome is not the only possibility here.

    I don't think it matters for now what he might or might not turn out like later in life. Well it matters but that's for another day.

    His life today is all wrong.


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    #795
    Jumbo2018
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Jumbo2018


    seamus wrote: »

    A parent who refuses to allow a boy to wear a dress is not "assuming" the child is straight, they are insisting on it.

    You do know that it is possible to be gay without being a transvestite.

    You also know that maybe parents don't want to allow a boy to wear a dress because they don't want him to look like an idiot.

    Parents are perfectly right to make decisions for children and tell them what they should or shouldn't wear.


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    #796
    Muckka
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭Muckka


    Jumbo2018 wrote: »
    You do know that it is possible to be gay without being a transvestite.

    You also know that maybe parents don't want to allow a boy to wear a dress because they don't want him to look like an idiot.

    Parents are perfectly right to make decisions for children and tell them what they should or shouldn't wear.

    Sometimes I wonder about families, is it the kid's that are bringing up the parents or the parents bringing up the kid's.

    Anything for a quiet life I think.

    I've seen it before, even my own brother is all, "my little cupcake princess" I am the opposite.

    An absolute mucker, get out there and get some soil into those callices, go on my son...

    He loved the garden, last thing he'd be interested in is prancing around in a dress.....


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    #797
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,050 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    gmisk wrote: »
    Huh?!? Was the kid in a club or a shoot out at a crack den?


    BTW I have said already I don't agree that a kid should be in a nightclub at 4am dancing about on stage regardless of whether it is a gay or a straight one. I can also honestly say that the majority of LGBTQ people I know would think exactly the same, the parent(s) need to wise up and the club should do the same.

    But I also knew that this thread would be used as an opportunity to basically run down LGBTQ people in general, which it has, how depressing.

    Well he was hanging out with murderers junkies and glorified pimps so it's as good as a crack den lifestyle


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    #798
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Jumbo2018 wrote: »
    You do know that it is possible to be gay without being a transvestite.
    :rolleyes:
    It's an example. And it's the typical example. Clothing and toys are the first places we start forcing gender stereotypes on children.
    You also know that maybe parents don't want to allow a boy to wear a dress because they don't want him to look like an idiot.
    Look like an idiot to who? The kind of moron who goes, "Ugh! A boy in a dress!"?

    That's a pretty sh1tty lesson to be teaching a child; "You should adjust yourself to conform to the tastes of others".
    Parents are perfectly right to make decisions for children and tell them what they should or shouldn't wear.
    In terms of practicality, sure. You can't wear a dress because it's snowing outside. Seems sensible.
    You can't wear a dress because boys don't wear dresses. That's some pretty crappy parenting right there; you're forcing gender stereotypes upon them.

    For the amount of people who complain that letting children wear the "wrong" clothes is forcing ideas of gender on kids, they have a terrible habit of doing the exact same thing themselves.


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    #799
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,776 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    Well he was hanging out with murderers junkies and glorified pimps so it's as good as a crack den lifestyle
    I already responded to that (couple of posts below my original reply...)


    Christ...seriously?!?
    Look in all honesty I wouldnt watch the link, I dont need to click on something like that and add to its clicks, the description was enough for me, I dont think this kind of crap should be happening in a gay or straight club/bar it is bizarre that it is.


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    #800
    Jumbo2018
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Jumbo2018


    seamus wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    It's an example. And it's the typical example. Clothing and toys are the first places we start forcing gender stereotypes on children.

    Look like an idiot to who? The kind of moron who goes, "Ugh! A boy in a dress!"?

    That's a pretty sh1tty lesson to be teaching a child; "You should adjust yourself to conform to the tastes of others".

    In terms of practicality, sure. You can't wear a dress because it's snowing outside. Seems sensible.
    You can't wear a dress because boys don't wear dresses. That's some pretty crappy parenting right there; you're forcing gender stereotypes upon them.

    For the amount of people who complain that letting children wear the "wrong" clothes is forcing ideas of gender on kids, they have a terrible habit of doing the exact same thing themselves.

    I'd suggest that if you send a 7 or 8 year old boy into school with a dress on he'll get picked on and bullied.

    The idea of men being men and women being women worked quite well for 99% of the world population for most of human existence and expect it will work quite well in the future.

    Almost every single boy will end up being happy as a male and the way men dress act etc and likewise for women , you've better chance of getting things right by confirming to male and female stereotypes.

    Children really don't know what they want adults have to make decisions for them.


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    #801
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    I've just read through this thread and some of the thinly veiled attempts to justify a child being abused is truly sickening. The lgbtq community should be disgusted by this. They seem to be offended by everything and ashamed of nothing. Disgraceful!

    Gay people on boards have been condemning it, what else are they supposed to do?


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    #802
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Jumbo2018 wrote: »
    I'd suggest that if you send a 7 or 8 year old boy into school with a dress on he'll get picked on and bullied.
    Perhaps. Why mollycoddle him though? Why not let him learn his lesson? And functionally you're enabling bullying behaviour. If he goes in and gets bullied, then the other kids should be castigated for it. Otherwise they'll think it's OK.

    Why shouldn't kids be taught to just ignore what other people are wearing rather than trying to bully people into submission? Yes, kids are kids, but that doesn't mean we should just let stuff happen.

    Would you advise that a 15 year old who is gay, should not come out in case they get bullied? Or would you advise them to be themselves and instead punish those who would bully them?
    The idea of men being men and women being women worked quite well for 99% of the world population for most of human existence and expect it will work quite well in the future.

    Almost every single boy will end up being happy as a male and the way men dress act etc and likewise for women , you've better chance of getting things right by confirming to male and female stereotypes.
    What constitutes a "manly man" and a "womanly woman" changes all the time. It's a fallacy to think that bringing your child up to conform to the stereotypes of your time, you are preparing them for their own.

    For example, if you were to raise a boy today with a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" mindset and that "sissy" stuff is to be avoided, he would find himself quite an outcast among his peers.
    Children really don't know what they want adults have to make decisions for them.
    On important things, sure. On whether they wear a blue jumper today or one with pink unicorns on it...no. That's suffocating.


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    #803
    DontThankMe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭DontThankMe


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Gay people on boards have been condemning it, what else are they supposed to do?

    Grab their torches and pitchforks and lead the charge against the boys parents.


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    #804
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    gmisk wrote: »
    Just to reinforce my point below

    "But I also knew that this thread would be used as an opportunity to basically run down LGBTQ people in general, which it has, how depressing."

    One poster (now banned) said below
    Time to extend that acronym to the "LGBTQP" community
    The number of likes.....really horrible.

    Don't know how you are so absolutely shocked.

    I do not believe the LGB community is trying to be inclusive towards P people, but there has always been a part of LGB activism that includes lowering age of consent. Usually they are unwelcome, though not always, as any unprejudiced reading of gay rights history will inform you. As late as a month or so ago (as I previously linked) Dr James Cantor, gay man, sexologist and associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry of the University of Toronto's Faculty of Medicine, tweeted that...

    https://twitter.com/JamesCantorPhD/status/1071499969910198274

    Professor of Psychiatry, Toronto. Not some gom flailing about.

    I think if people want real debate about important matters this hiding behind the ''How Very Dare You!'' has got to stop. There is no community that is not open to critique.

    Some people in the LGB community believe that age of consent should be lowered. Some people in LGB community believe paedophilia is an inborn inherent trait that should be accepted. Some people in the straight community believe that age of consent should be lowered. Some people in the straight community believe that paedophilia is an inborn inherent trait.

    All this blustering outrage and being depressed is dishonest.


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    #805
    Defaulter1831
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Defaulter1831


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Where did I say anything about arranged marriages for toddlers? That’s your twisting what I said into something sinister. That’s entirely on you, and comes as no surprise whatsoever tbh given your contributions to this thread so far.

    You're taking about it being the norm for toddlers to be paired off. My contributions to the thread are a bit more sane and well received than yours.


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    #806
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Dexter Wrong Baton wrote: »
    according to the childs wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Napoles , parents exposed him at 2/3 to the lifestyle as he was "likely gay" he's also on the autistim spectrum and "claims" drag helps him...the parents are to blame here and very creepy

    Can we just call a spade and spade and come out and say his parents are clearly pimping him out?


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    #807
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,776 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Zorya wrote: »
    Don't know how you are so absolutely shocked.

    I do not believe the LGB community is trying to be inclusive towards P people, but there has always been a part of LGB activism that includes lowering age of consent. Usually they are unwelcome, though not always, as any unprejudiced reading of gay rights history will inform you. As late as a month or so ago (as I previously linked) Dr James Cantor, gay man, sexologist and associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry of the University of Toronto's Faculty of Medicine, tweeted that...

    https://twitter.com/JamesCantorPhD/status/1071499969910198274

    Professor of Psychiatry, Toronto. Not some gom flailing about.

    I think if people want real debate about important matters this hiding behind the ''How Very Dare You!'' has got to stop. There is no community that is not open to critique.

    Some people in the LGB community believe that age of consent should be lowered. Some people in LGB community believe paedophilia is an inborn inherent trait that should be accepted. Some people in the straight community believe that age of consent should be lowered. Some people in the straight community believe that paedophilia is an inborn inherent trait.

    All this blustering outrage and being depressed is dishonest.
    Some tosser (with a bizarre twitter feed) and a paedo twitter group come on now.


    There is no community that is not open to critique.
    In that posters case it was not a critique lets be honest. Look at the thread it was posted on it was clearly being done to link LGBTQ community to paedophiles.


    but there has always been a part of LGB activism that includes lowering age of consent
    There are always going to be some nutjobs, the only real activism I can remember when it comes to age of consent for gay people was that it should match that for heterosexual people, which seems entirely reasonable to me.

    All this blustering outrage and being depressed is dishonest.
    If that is how it makes me feel it is not being dishonest it is the opposite.


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    #808
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    DontThankMe wrote: »
    You do realise that he is a professional drag performer.

    A child can't be a professional anything. That's child labour, and is largely banned in the civilsed world with a handful of, tightly regulated, exceptions in the advertising and media industry.


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    #809
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Kynlee Wrong Underpass wrote: »
    Maybe if Jimmy was a member of a certain community he would have a certain cohort of people defending him.

    The Gay community of this country has effectively banished Al Porter, and that was just for making lewd comments about adults. Can you imagine the Irish gay community doing anything other than reducing this nightclub to ashes if it were located here?


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    #810
    DontThankMe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭DontThankMe


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Can we just call a spade and spade and come out and say his parents are clearly pimping him out?

    Or they are allowing him to do what he wants to do and they are supporting his choice to do it.


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    #811
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    DontThankMe wrote: »
    Or they are allowing him to do what he wants to do and they are supporting his choice to do it.

    Thats the thing.
    A responsible parent doesnt allow their 11yr kid to "do what they want to do"


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