11 yr/old drag kid worshiped within LGBTQ community (Mod warning op)

baby and crumble

Deleted User wrote: »

For what it's worth, I would be against drag artists who have a reputation for bawdy adult material reading to children while in drag. I just don't think it is appropriate and it's unnecessary. I don't think 3-7 year olds should be overtly exposed to ideas such as gender fluidity/opposing gender norms.

However, I am against it being shut down. I just wouldn't bring my child. I'm sure there are plenty of progressive or "woke" parents who would enjoy it.

TBH that's fair. I don't think anyone has to be comfortable with everything available to all people.

I think sometimes too we forget that what adults can think is overtly sexual and inappropriate for kids often isn't picked up on by those kids in the same way. It's like when I was a kid, we'd watch Carry On movies when they were on telly. I used to just think they were funny, all the racy jokes and innuendo went totally over my head. it wasn't until I was 17/18 and watched one again that i was amazed at how sexual it really was.

I also do think it's important to challenge assumptions from some folks that gay people = pedophiles which some people in this thread have at least hinted at.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So a man not in a dress is conservative now?

Didn't say that. And this time its pretty clear I'm refering to the clothing not the individual.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Why does it HAVE to be done in traditional, conservative clothing? And if your answer is "it doesn't" then you've answered your own question.

[QUOTE} Bit of a difference to a chap from an established childrens entertainment group reading 3 little pigs in a little bo peep outfit, to members of an adult drag group, whose prompotional material include a person in what appears to a large foam vagina (could be a penis, its very badly made) with "Gay Agenda" emblazoned accross a stage, diversifying into library readings to celebrate gay pride.[/QUOTE]

As I've said three or four times already.

baby and crumble

ellejay wrote: »

I didn't realise I was confusing the two.
My understanding is drag queens are gay men garishly dressed as women who perform, whereas cross dressers are predominantly gay men (some arguably straight men also) dress up as women but do actually want to be perceived as female. They're usually on the road to changing gender.

Please correct if that's wrong.

It is wrong, to be honest.

Drag queens are not always gay men. Some straight men do drag. Look at Barry Humphries who performs as Dame Edna Everage. Or Brendan O'Caroll as Mrs. Brown. That's drag. Likwise I know a few straight women who perform as drag kings.

A huge proportion of cross-dressing men are straight, most in straight relationships too. Lots of research has looked at it. It's certainly not predominately gay men.

Likewise, being transgender is a different thing again. The issues all get conflated because for some people, doing one leads to another or because they identified as the 'least scary' out of them all. A famous example is probably the story of Lili Ebbe, the first trans woman to medically transition. She began her exploration of gender because her wife at the time (when she presented and identified male) asked her to model for her as her female model never showed up (they were both painters).

klaaaz

ellejay wrote: »

I didn't realise I was confusing the two.
My understanding is drag queens are gay men garishly dressed as women who perform, whereas cross dressers are predominantly gay men (some arguably straight men also) dress up as women but do actually want to be perceived as female. They're usually on the road to changing gender.

Please correct if that's wrong.

Drag queens/kings are performance artists, no matter their sexuality.
Crossdressers are men who crossdress part-time/fulltime and don't want to become women, they want to retain their male bodies no matter their sexuality. Plenty of women crossdress also these days Transvestites are men who dress as women for sexual kicks, I think the modern term is non-binary or something like that.
Transexuals are those who change sex related to gender identity, they are not related to any of the previous lot, though the ignorant GO'D types tend to lump them all together. As for the storytelling, that's about drag queens(men in dresses as a stereotype) reading a book. Though why some posters get upset about a man in a dress is beyond comprehension.

Roger Hassenforder

gmisk wrote: »

Is there any point at all to your response?
If you have nothing at all to add there isnt any need to chip in.

I suppose i should have said "I'm not sure you understand what age appropriate means".

My bad

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

Drag is pretty much the antithesis of gender norms.

How?

baby and crumble

klaaaz wrote: »

Transvestites are men who dress as women for sexual kicks, I think the modern term is non-binary or something like that.

I have to pick you up on this, that's not correct. Non-binary is a very different thing. Non-binary identities are when a person doesn't particularly identify or feel themselves as one gender or another.

Roger Hassenforder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Didn't say that. And this time its pretty clear I'm refering to the clothing not the individual.

[QUOTE} Bit of a difference to a chap from an established childrens entertainment group reading 3 little pigs in a little bo peep outfit, to members of an adult drag group, whose prompotional material include a person in what appears to a large foam vagina (could be a penis, its very badly made) with "Gay Agenda" emblazoned accross a stage, diversifying into library readings to celebrate gay pride.

As I've said three or four times already.[/quote]

You're not as clear as you think you are Princess, i too am referring to the clothing.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

Drag is pretty much the antithesis of gender norms.

its a grotesque caricature of femininity, thats the point

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote:

How?

It is men dressing as women and women dressing as men.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

You're not as clear as you think you are Princess, i too am referring to the clothing.

In fainress, you're the one who is not being clear this time. You specifically refer to the man in the dress.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So a man not in a dress is conservative now?

Roger Hassenforder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In fainress, you're the one who is not being clear this time. You specifically refer to the man in the dress.

Exactly!

Gimme A Pound

Baby and crumble, I would hate for you to think that all of us who have reservations about such an event are having a go at the LGBT community. Certainly not. And I certainly don't think it's to sexualise children or that it's dangerous for them or that those involved are predatory to children, but I just can't get my head around an adults only act (whether gay or straight - for me it is simply not about sexual preference) with an adult name and logo, and shows and published material featuring very raunchy stuff, giving a talk - under the same name - to children. Can you not see how that could be deemed inappropriate?

If it were a random dude in a dress and make-up, I wouldn't give a fiddler's. I know drag in and of itself is not sexual.

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

It is men dressing as women and women dressing as men.

Why shouldn't children in your words be not "exposed to opposing gender norms"? They are just items of clothing!

EmmetSpiceland

Kenna Fresh Teflon wrote: »

Baby and crumble, I would hate for you to think that all of us who have reservations about such an event are having a go at the LGBT community. Certainly not. And I certainly don't think it's to sexualise children or that's it's dangerous for them or that those involved are predatory to children, but I just can't get my head around an adults only act (whether gay or straight - for me it is simply not about sexual preference) with an adult name and logo, and shows and published material featuring very raunchy stuff, giving a talk - under the same name - to children. Can you not see how that could be deemed inappropriate?

If it were a random dude in a dress and make-up, I wouldn't give a fiddler's. I know drag in and of itself is not sexual.

The kids could easily be exposed to the adult stuff inadvertently if they were to google them.

The group needs to focus on one act or the other. Flitting between an adult stage show and kid’s entertainment isn’t a runner.

You’d get the same reaction if it was a bunch of strippers, male or female, doing the kid’s show.

baby and crumble

Kenna Fresh Teflon wrote: »

Baby and crumble, I would hate for you to think that all of us who have reservations about such an event are having a go at the LGBT community. Certainly not. And I certainly don't think it's to sexualise children or that's it's dangerous for them or that those involved are predatory to children, but I just can't get my head around an adults only act (whether gay or straight - for me it is simply not about sexual preference) with an adult name and logo, and shows and published material featuring very raunchy stuff, giving a talk - under the same name - to children. Can you not see how that could be deemed inappropriate?

If it were a random dude in a dress and make-up, I wouldn't give a fiddler's. I know drag in and of itself is not sexual.

Honestly I don't really understand because to me, it's just a name (and honestly i don't even think it's that raunchy of a name) and it's easy to separate what a performer does when booked for an adults only show versus what they would do for children. To me it's kind of obvious that they wouldn't be doing their more adult themed stuff around kids. So I would trust, in this instance, that they are professionals and would act accordingly - especially when a number of these events have gone off with the same performers in the same location without any complaints.

Just as I would assume someone who writes both adult and childrens books would know not to read their adult stuff when they've been booked to read an extract from their childrens books.

And there is definitely a (small, hopefully) group of people objecting to this purely because it's 'men in dresses and that's weird and they'll turn our kids'. That's what i have a problem with tbh.

Then again, I get where the worry is with googling the name, so I take that point on board.

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

Why shouldn't children in your words be not "exposed to opposing gender norms"? They are just items of clothing!

just items of clothing?

then why make it the entire point of your act!

Gimme A Pound

No of course they're not going to do anything sexual in the talk with children but the association is there.

I suppose it boils down to the fact that I wouldn't want any group that describes themselves as a "queer feminist performance space" to be facilitating any of my daughter's activities.

ellejay

baby and crumble wrote: »

It is wrong, to be honest.

Drag queens are not always gay men. Some straight men do drag. Look at Barry Humphries who performs as Dame Edna Everage. Or Brendan O'Caroll as Mrs. Brown. That's drag. Likwise I know a few straight women who perform as drag kings.

A huge proportion of cross-dressing men are straight, most in straight relationships too. Lots of research has looked at it. It's certainly not predominately gay men.

Likewise, being transgender is a different thing again. The issues all get conflated because for some people, doing one leads to another or because they identified as the 'least scary' out of them all. A famous example is probably the story of Lili Ebbe, the first trans woman to medically transition. She began her exploration of gender because her wife at the time (when she presented and identified male) asked her to model for her as her female model never showed up (they were both painters).

I'm happy to be wrong
I don't mean to sound argumentative but I have some queries on what you said.

Drag queens are not always gay men.
Would you say drag queens are mostly gay men?

Some straight men do drag. Look at Barry Humphries who performs as Dame Edna Everage. Or Brendan O'Caroll as Mrs. Brown.
I would have thought they're the exceptions to the rule. And to be fair, I don't think they would consider a children's show.

Likwise I know a few straight women who perform as drag kings.
I don't know one straight female that performs in drag, but to be fair I don't know any gay women that would either.

A huge proportion of cross-dressing men are straight, most in straight relationships too. Lots of research has looked at it. It's certainly not predominately gay men
I'm really surprised at this.
The media portrays any men that cross dress as too shy to come out as gay.

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

just items of clothing?

then why make it the entire point of your act!

They are just reading books, why oppose them based on what one wears then?

baby and crumble

ellejay wrote: »

I'm happy to be wrong
I don't mean to sound argumentative but I have some queries on what you said.

No problemo!

ellejay wrote: »

Drag queens are not always gay men.
Would you say drag queens are mostly gay men?

Mostly, probably, yes. Or bisexual. Very often gay and bisexual men are less likely to be tied into societies ideas of what 'masculinity' is. So dressing in drag and looking at that part of themselves isn't as scary for them as it might be. And hey, lots of straight guys have zero interest in womens fashion or the related interests that make up a successful queen. I mean, it's a stereotype but it rings true for many.

To pick up on your earlier point, you also said drag queens are 'garish'. You should look up performances from Courtney Act as an example of a drag queen who is not garish, or 'grotesque' which is another word people have used.

ellejay wrote: »

Some straight men do drag. Look at Barry Humphries who performs as Dame Edna Everage. Or Brendan O'Caroll as Mrs. Brown.
I would have thought they're the exceptions to the rule. And to be fair, I don't think they would consider a children's show.

They are the exceptions, however I was simply pointing out that you said drag queen = gay man. That's not true. Likewise pantomime dames are often/mostly played by straight men. That's drag too. And I think a lot of families will sit around and watch Mrs Browns Boys together. Likewise the likes of Dame Edna was family entertainment when I was younger.

ellejay wrote: »

Likwise I know a few straight women who perform as drag kings.
I don't know one straight female that performs in drag, but to be fair I don't know any gay women that would either.

That's fair enough. Kings in general are a rarity in Ireland (and worldwide) but I know of a few straight kings, shared a performance bill with them. They're definitely straight.

ellejay wrote: »

A huge proportion of cross-dressing men are straight, most in straight relationships too. Lots of research has looked at it. It's certainly not predominately gay men
I'm really surprised at this.
The media portrays any men that cross dress as too shy to come out as gay.

True. But then much of the media portrays lots of minority groups in inaccurate ways. Doesn't make it correct. Stigma, shame and peoples assumptions on motivation makes it difficult for folks.

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

They are just reading books, why oppose them based on what one wears then?

i suppose what i picked up on is the air of "why the big deal what he wears"

if the substantive issue is reading to kids, he could do it dressed like anyone else. the fact that he does a drag act in his other time is a lot less likely to be an issue id imagine

if, on the other hand, the point is to do it in drag, then i dont think its consistent to be all handwavey about it just being a reading event. its a drag event. call it a drag event. be honest that you want parents to bring their kids to a drag event at the library and dont weasel it into a guilt trip if they arent enticed.

lecturing parents who are unenthused about bringing their kids into the gender politics debate is at least an honest approach and i think is much closer to what the issue is here

Charles Ingles

I believe the children are the future,
Teach them well and let them lead the way

Zorya

Why are children aged 3 to 7 considered to be an audience for a Pride event? They are not the target audience for events related to sexuality in the usual course of things.

baby and crumble

Deleted User wrote: »

its a drag event. call it a drag event. be honest that you want parents to bring their kids to a drag event at the library and dont weasel it into a guilt trip if they arent enticed.

lecturing parents who are unenthused about bringing their kids into the gender politics debate is at least an honest approach and i think is much closer to what the issue is here

It always was billed as a drag event - it's called "Drag Story Time".

I certainly, like I said earlier, don't think that the event was going to appeal to everyone, and nobody should feel guilty about not wanting to bring their own children to an event. However, the issue for me is that people went out of their way to have it banned for ALL parents and children. I have lots of friends with kids who have expressed disappointment that it was cancelled as they had hoped to bring their kids to it.

baby and crumble

Zorya wrote: »

Why are children aged 3 to 7 considered to be an audience for a Pride event? They are not the target audience for events related to sexuality in the usual course of things.

Because they might have gay parents? Sibling? Cousins? Who want to celebrate their family in an appropriate way.

Pride isn't about sex.

baby and crumble

baby and crumble wrote: »

It always was billed as a drag event - it's called "Drag Story Time".

I certainly, like I said earlier, don't think that the event was going to appeal to everyone, and nobody should feel guilty about not wanting to bring their own children to an event. However, the issue for me is that people went out of their way to have it banned for ALL parents and children. I have lots of friends with kids who have expressed disappointment that it was cancelled as they had hoped to bring their kids to it.

i am in full agreement with you on that!

the thread is whirling around a bit and stating my full position seems a bit indulgent so apologies if thats unclear but id find it hard to think any other view is even remotely defensible tbh

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

i suppose what i picked up on is the air of "why the big deal what he wears"

if, on the other hand, the point is to do it in drag, then i dont think its consistent to be all handwavey about it just being a reading event. its a drag event. call it a drag event. be honest that you want parents to bring their kids to a drag event at the library and dont weasel it into a guilt trip if they arent enticed.

Posters have a phobia about a man wearing a dress reading a book, they get upset and offended at an item of clothing!

Should there be a dress code for such events? Perhaps the male should be banned from wearing anything pink as it would upset the old-fashioned "traditionalists"?!!

Zorya

baby and crumble wrote: »

Because they might have gay parents? Sibling? Cousins? Who want to celebrate their family in an appropriate way.

Pride isn't about sex.

It's about sex and sexual politics. Kids with gay parents don't need drag queens to normalise them. The kids know it's perfectly grand, at least the children of my sister and her wife never seemed to need a man in drag to celebrate their family. Odd that.