No vision for a rapidly changing Ireland

marno21

Here's a primary cause of your housing crisis in a nutshell that regularly gets overlooked.

Dublin has a huge apartment shortage. Cairn Homes proposing 370 apartments on Griffith Avenue in Marino. Within walking distance of the Malahide Road QBC which will become the Clongriffin-City Centre core bus corridor under BusConnects. In the future, it'll be a short cycle from the Metro station on Mobhi Road for even more connectivity.

The response? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/junior-minister-opposes-385-home-development-in-north-dublin-1.3750505

Of course, the transport projects above would be closer to construction were the junior Minister in question's cabinet and alliance colleague even remotely interested in his Departmental brief.

ChikiChiki

We are a reactive society instead of proactive. If infrastructure was managed properly over the past few decades we would be in a strong position to take advantage of Brexit and Dublin could be a major financial/tech centre of Europe. This in turn should lift the rest of the country.

Instead the opportunity is going to the wall because of inept local politicos. A good example is the much needed metro being held up over a fupping GAA pitch.

No ambition and no vision truth be told as the country further strangles itself.

markpb

I'd love to the other Ministers and the Taoiseach publicly shame him for objections like this but they won't because they know he's just playing the game, going along with his constituents, submitting their objection as if his job makes their objection more valid.

JupiterKid

I'm pleased that this thread has generated a degree of good debate.

I would like to add that yes, the decline of rural areas is global - the majority of the world now lives in cities. This major milestone was reached about a decade ago. But a totally moribund rural environment is in nobody's interest.

I am not advocating a return to the poor, backward, insular, predominantly rural, agrarian and judgemental Ireland of the De Valera years. Quite the opposite.

I fully acknowledge the momentous changes Ireland is undergoing. However, compared to say Europe and North America, it is the pace of change and urbanisation in Ireland that is remarkable. Since the turn of the 21st century Ireland has been changing at a very rapid pace and that pace is speeding up significantly.

This country remained very rural for many decades after the developed world - because of very poor planning, local politics and the fact that we were underdeveloped economically and socially until well into the 1990s.

I would advocate developing proper urban counter balances to Dublin. This was first proposed in the 1968 Buchanan Report (duly rejected and shelved) and the 2002 National Spatial Strategy (too watered down itself and ultimately failed) and I firmly believe urban areas are the engines of growth in our economy.

But the country is far too Dublin centric and the problems are there for all to see. A housing crisis, poor quality of life, intolerably long commutes from scattered settlements in a commuter belt of Dublin that is absurdly large for a city of Dublin’s size, poor public transport and a lack of long term, effective, strategic planning. Regional autonomy is practically non existent - compare this to Germany.

Some problems my past research has shown up:

Unless they are particularly picturesque and host a significant tourist attraction or are coastal or are within the commuter belts of Dublin and Cork and are feeding off the economic power of these cities, many rural towns seem to be in serious trouble.

Why?

I think there are a multitude of factors at play here...

1. Atrocious planning. Allowing a free for all of rural one off housing in the environs of these towns over the past 50 years meant that very little or no middle class housing estates were built in these towns and this meant that the only estates to be developed in these towns were local authority ones. This led to the towns getting a “rough” reputation, discouraging private housing development in the towns and leading to more people wanting to live in rural one off housing outside these towns. This led a vicious spiral of decline.

2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.

3. Poor redevelopment/tax incentive strategies. When Ireland’s economic fortunes started to change for the better in the 1990s onwards, it might have seemed that many of these towns in decline might have had a shot at recovery. But at this stage, the horse had bolted by then - emigration in the bleak 80s robbed them of their skilled youth, industry had moved on and would no longer locate in these towns and badly designed shopping centers and ugly “retail parks” were allowed spring up, often outside the town centre itself, cannibalising the retail trade in these towns. In any case, many of these retail ventures failed and lie half vacant.

Also poorly built and very poorly maintained Celtic-tiger era apartment buildings thrown up at the edge of these town centres which in less than 15 years have aged very badly. Indeed many ended up in NAMA and are half-built empty shells as there was no real demand for such accommodation in the first place.

Poor internet/broadband connectivity to some of these towns hasn’t helped either. The decline of the rural pub is also very noticeable in these towns. Rural towns that had 8 or 9 pubs 15 years ago perhaps have 3 or 4 now.

Closure of local services such as Garda stations and post offices has badly affected the small towns. Increased car mobility for those who can travel mean more and more are shopping in bigger urban centers, furthering the decline of local businesses.

All through this, no government has put forward a coherent, sustainable vision for this country and its future spatial pattern of developent and then proceeded to properly implement these plans through policies that take a long term view which benefits the country as a whole. Is it all due to me feinism, short-sightedness, clientalism and parish pump politics? Because IMO these factors have failed Ireland as a whole in having well balanced development of the country.

Also, we must ask ourselves the key question: do we have an economy or do we have a society?

Are we as a people largely to blame for this? After all, we get the politicians we elect...

AngryHippie

Tell me how wrote: »

Please explain.

THE REST OF THE WORLD PLAYS IT....:rolleyes:

Wanderer78

JupiterKid wrote:

Are we as a people largely to blame for this? After all, we get the politicians we elect...

But do we really, or have our political systems evolved into complex systems that are less democratic, more plutocratic, more authoritarian etc etc?

nice_guy80

Berserker wrote: »

A child from any religious or political background can play rugby. The same cannot be said for GAA. A child who wants to play GAA, rugby and hockey, is still not allowed to do so by the GAA in 2018/19. The GAA club members will make attending training sessions and games for others sports as difficult as possible for the youngster. I thought this nonsense died out years ago but it's still going on.

the opposite is the case
if a player gets called up to a provincial rugby squad they are told to drop other sports.
state non fee paying schools often give the option to play rugby (if there is rugby clubs locally), and soccer plus gaa, golf, swimming and even cricket.

most fee paying rugby playing schools don't allow GAA to be played

JupiterKid

JupiterKid wrote: »

I

1. Atrocious planning. Allowing a free for all of rural one off housing in the environs of these towns over the past 50 years meant that very little or no middle class housing estates were built in these towns and this meant that the only estates to be developed in these towns were local authority ones. This led to the towns getting a “rough” reputation, discouraging private housing development in the towns and leading to more people wanting to live in rural one off housing outside these towns. This led a vicious spiral of decline.

Also, we must ask ourselves the key question: do we have an economy or do we have a society?

Are we as a people largely to blame for this? After all, we get the politicians we elect...

THIS... absolutely, who else is to blame

I dont remember the 1968 report :P but I do remember the '02 NSS and how it was watered down and shouted down by local politics despite the planners involved warning that Dublin would grow out of control.

And your point 1 is basically my home town.

markpb

JupiterKid wrote: »

I would advocate developing proper urban counter balances to Dublin. This was first proposed in the 1968 Buchanan Report (duly rejected and shelved) and the 2002 National Spatial Strategy (too watered down itself and ultimately failed) and I firmly believe urban areas are the engines of growth in our economy.

In your initial post, you kept talking about rural Ireland but it this one, it seems like you're talking about urban development outside of Dublin (and possibly other cities). They're very different things!

Encouraging rural development (which is what we've effectively done for the last 30 years) is a terrible waste of the states resources. Individually people are happy with their big house, big garden and low mortgage repayments but it negatively affects every aspect of life. Why are our roads so bad - we have more roads per person than most EU countries. Why are our rural ambulance response times so poor - people are strung out across the countryside. Why is rural internet provision so poor - people are strung out across the countryside. Why is our rural public transport so poor - people are strung out across the countryside. Why are our carbon emissions so high - people are forced to drive because there's no effective public transport. Why are rural towns dying - shops are doing little trade because, when you're in your car already, it's just as easy to drive to the nearest big down and avoid your local town/village.

People will lambaste me for saying this. They'll scream that farmers have to live in the countryside (some do) and that historically we have always had low population density but all of this is irrelevant. In the past, if you lived in the countryside, you didn't have a car so you socialised, shopped and worked within walking distance or not at all. You didn't drive 30 miles to go shopping.

There should be no debate about whether this has been encouraged, it absolutely has. Planning permission was, for a very long time, given to anyone, anywhere. The rural levy for electricity does not close to the actual delivery cost and, more recently, property tax penalises people who live in urban areas and rewards people who live in the countryside.

If you want to have a hope to revitalising towns and villages, start by encouraging people to actually live in them instead of encouraging people to live everywhere but them.

Tell me how

Wanderer78 wrote: »

But do we really, or have our political systems evolved into complex systems that are less democratic, more plutocratic, more authoritarian etc etc?

Are you talking about just here in Ireland or on a more global level?

In Ireland, I think we are close to being as democratic as can reasonably be expected.

• Local elections (max 5 years)
• National elections (max 5 years)
• European elections (max 5 years)
• Presidential elections (max 7 years)
• We get to vote on changes to the constitution via referendum
• Such referendum are excellently handled via the release of information from the referendum commission as to just what the facts are

Anyone in Ireland can start local and could get themselves in to a position of significant power and influence within quite a short period, if*, their policies are such that the electorate come on board with them.

Yes, there are quangos, there are state boards, there is sometimes a lack of direct accountability outside of the ballot box, but I believe, for the large part we function in quite a decent manner, even if the end result of the governance still leaves plenty room for debate and critique.

* The if mentioned here is quite significant, many find that there is not widespread appeal for their ideas and so turn to calling Ireland corrupt and failing. See a recent attempt to gain candidacy for the the presidential election as an active example.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

But do we really, or have our political systems evolved into complex systems that are less democratic, more plutocratic, more authoritarian etc etc?

there does appear to be a rising number of fly-by-night politicians recently.

I first noticed this phenomena when Nicolas Sarkosy was 'vowing' to do this and vowing to do that, in the name of upholding EU policy etc.

and a week later he was gone. Unceremoniously vanished, very little in the news about it, that I can remember at least.


Similarly Gordon Brown disappeared very quickly from the public stage. He gave a 5 minute speech outside 10 Downing street finishing with 'Thank you and goodbye'. I haven't seen sight nor light of him since.


Expect Teresa May to do a similar vanishing act.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

there does appear to be a rising number of fly-by-night politicians recently.

I first noticed this phenomena when Nicolas Sarkosy was 'vowing' to do this and vowing to do that, in the name of upholding EU policy etc.

and a week later he was gone. Unceremoniously vanished, very little in the news about it, that I can remember at least.


Similarly Gordon Brown disappeared very quickly from the public stage. He gave a 5 minute speech outside 10 Downing street finishing with 'Thank you and goodbye'. I haven't seen sight nor light of him since.


Expect Teresa May to do a similar vanishing act.

Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy are fly-by-night politicians? Jesus.

Tell me how

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 1 This country remained very rural for many decades after the developed world - because of very poor planning, local politics and the fact that we were underdeveloped economically and socially until well into the 1990s.

I think there are other reasons why Ireland has remained rural. A very high percentage of the country is highly desirable to live in from a health and aesthetics perspective. Also, it is a small country. I know several living in Clare/Dublin/Limerick who travel to Dublin for work 1 - 2 days a week without it feeling like it's a massive burden to do so.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 2 I would advocate developing proper urban counter balances to Dublin. This was first proposed in the 1968 Buchanan Report (duly rejected and shelved) and the 2002 National Spatial Strategy (too watered down itself and ultimately failed) and I firmly believe urban areas are the engines of growth in our economy.

One possible issue with such a system is that if areas such as, for example, Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Wexford, Portlaoise, Mullingar, Cavan Town etc were identified as areas where industry was going to be targeted, other towns/cities would feel that they were being abandoned and should have been selected in the first place. Ennis for example would probably feel aggrieved but realistically, its location between limerick and Galway might mean that this is the case. But then, are you accepting that 1 hour + commute to work is acceptable?

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 3 But the country is far too Dublin centric and the problems are there for all to see. A housing crisis, poor quality of life, intolerably long commutes from scattered settlements in a commuter belt of Dublin that is absurdly large for a city of Dublin’s size, poor public transport and a lack of long term, effective, strategic planning. Regional autonomy is practically non existent - compare this to Germany.

In the absence of a national implementation such as in Point 2, what has happened is as you say. The flow of resources in to Dublin from a radius covering a large percentage of the country every morning is counterintuitive to promoting efficient sustainable societies, with a reasonable quality of life.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 4 2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

This point should be analysed. If employers were in towns, and left, was it simply because of the absence of tax breaks or was it because there were other issues such as an aging dwindling workforce. The exact root cause needs to be understood because should we convince companies to locate regionally in future, we want them to stay.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 5 Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.

As mentioned above, Ireland is a small country. And one with National airports in Dublin, Knock, Cork and Shannon. It is a bugbear of mine that a 2nd runway is going in to Dublin as busloads of people travel to Dublin from Galway while Knock and Shannon are under utilised. I understand market forces, but I think this is one area where the government should have been stronger to promote routes to the other airports so as to generate habits in using them. Was very frustrating to be working in Shannon and have to get in to a car and drive to Dublin so as to be able to fly to somewhere like Malta.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 6 3. Poor redevelopment/tax incentive strategies. When Ireland’s economic fortunes started to change for the better in the 1990s onwards, it might have seemed that many of these towns in decline might have had a shot at recovery. But at this stage, the horse had bolted by then - emigration in the bleak 80s robbed them of their skilled youth, industry had moved on and would no longer locate in these towns and badly designed shopping centers and ugly “retail parks” were allowed spring up, often outside the town centre itself, cannibalising the retail trade in these towns. In any case, many of these retail ventures failed and lie half vacant.

Limerick was a prime example of this. LArge shopping centres at the Crescent, Childres road and Ennis Road areas and streets of desolate units in the city centre. Demoralising for everyone. Workers, city inhabitants, tourists.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 7 Also poorly built and very poorly maintained Celtic-tiger era apartment buildings thrown up at the edge of these town centres which in less than 15 years have aged very badly. Indeed many ended up in NAMA and are half-built empty shells as there was no real demand for such accommodation in the first place.

Another frustration of mine. Rendered walls, iron pipework that starts to rust and stain the wall after 2 years. Wood panelling that looks tired and faded after just one winter. Absence of green areas and small playing areas. I've discussed this (briefly) with a friend who works as a planner and he says that the materials used are nothing to do with them. I say briefly because if I try to tolerate the argument they put forward, I get very frustrated.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 8 All through this, no government has put forward a coherent, sustainable vision for this country and its future spatial pattern of developent and then proceeded to properly implement these plans through policies that take a long term view which benefits the country as a whole. Is it all due to me feinism, short-sightedness, clientalism and parish pump politics? Because IMO these factors have failed Ireland as a whole in having well balanced development of the country.

That is where the real debate lies. If someone like the Healy-Raes stand up in Dail eireann and say that there needs to be development funding for the Kerry region, they will be accused of playing parish pump politics. But, does the region not need funding? Is that not why they were elected? Is someone living in Dublin West not doing the same thing only it's not flagged as such.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Point 9 Also, we must ask ourselves the key question: do we have an economy or do we have a society?

Are we as a people largely to blame for this? After all, we get the politicians we elect...

I think part of the problem that we have now is that given the way the % of the population has grown to live and/or work in the Dublin region, they are the dominant voice on the subject, and so they want most of the services to be provided in their area. They can rightly point out that that is where the population is. This can tend to dominate debates such as these where many posters will suggest that all funding should be prioritised for Dublin because that is where the majority of the tax revenue originates.

But, Dublin is not a country. It is the country of Ireland and it is not so big that we need to shut off the lights elsewhere just keep the Dublin operating. I think we need to try to communicate the benefits for all of society if we manage to get to a place where people in cars in Moate and Carlow etc are not just driving towards Dublin to get to work. (ideally they'd be in buses/trains etc but you get the point).

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

there does appear to be a rising number of fly-by-night politicians recently.

Similarly Gordon Brown disappeared very quickly from the public stage. He gave a 5 minute speech outside 10 Downing street finishing with 'Thank you and goodbye'. I haven't seen sight nor light of him since.


Expect Teresa May to do a similar vanishing act.

Gordon Brown held the office of either shadow secretary to a key ministerial position or a key ministerial position in the house of Commons between 1989 and 2010.

Is there any chance you are talking about David Cameron? He was leader of the Conservatives for 11 years. Hardly fly by night.

Nicolas Sarkozy first held a national office in 1993 and was in government until 2012.

awec

nice_guy80 wrote: »

serviced affordable sites in a proper cluster arrangement in small villages and towns, provided by the county councils - available to decent working people who will buy the site and build their own house, adhering to a particular style
within walking and cycling distance of the school, shop, post office, community centre and sports clubs, and pub

would cut carbon emmissions hugely
better standard of living
better communities

Spot on.

One off housing needs to be outright banned, it is inefficient, difficult to service and a blight on the landscape.

Rural Ireland should be planned around small little villages and towns, with one off planning only granted in exceptional circumstances (farmers).

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Gordon Brown held the office of either shadow secretary to a key ministerial position or a key ministerial position in the house of Commons between 1989 and 2010.

Is there any chance you are talking about David Cameron? He was leader of the Conservatives for 11 years. Hardly fly by night.

Nicolas Sarkozy first held a national office in 1993 and was in government until 2012.

sorry... I incorrectly used the term 'fly by night'.

What I mean to to say is that they both disappeared from office fairly quickly. I know they were both long serving politicians, which is what made it strange (imo)

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

sorry... I incorrectly used the term 'fly by night'.

What I mean to to say is that they both disappeared from office fairly quickly. I know they were both long serving politicians, which is what made it strange (imo)

that is generally what happens with long serving politicians who reach the highest office and then lose an election. where are bertie, enda et al? Once they have their moment in the sun they either go back to the back benches or retire completely.

joe40

awec wrote: »

Spot on.

One off housing needs to be outright banned, it is inefficient, difficult to service and a blight on the landscape.

Rural Ireland should be planned around small little villages and towns, with one off planning only granted in exceptional circumstances (farmers).

As someone who lives in a one off house 4 miles from a large town I fully agree with this. I like my house and garden but there is no real focal point for a sense of community. Also since we live on a fast but narrow rural road walking and cycling for children is impossible. Totally car bound, meeting friends and activities for kids are all planned in advance.
People imagine living in the countryside has more freedom, the opposite is the case.

nice_guy80

awec wrote: »

Spot on.

One off housing needs to be outright banned, it is inefficient, difficult to service and a blight on the landscape.

Rural Ireland should be planned around small little villages and towns, with one off planning only granted in exceptional circumstances (farmers).

Agreed
But planning is hard to get in a lot of counties

James Brown

Great news about the church though.

Tell me how

Newstalk covered the experience of Limerick city since Dell closed 10 years ago yesterday evening.

The Hard Shoulder

Willie O'Dea and John Moran (interim chair of land development agency)

Some very interesting points made by John Moran in particular.

Hector Savage

DontThankMe wrote: »

All I'm reading is problems and no solutions. How do you propose that the government could fix some of the problems that you have mentioned.

Incentives for big companies to have headquarters in places other than Dublin - and incentive will follow for people to move...

Decent public transport system too - get the Germans in to help us, don't let spud munching inbred Micks (it's ok , it's not racist , I'm Irish myself :P ) do it.

Thats a start.

Tell me how

Hector Savage wrote: »

Decent public transport system too - get the Germans in to help us, don't let spud munching inbred Micks (it's ok , it's not racist , I'm Irish myself) do it.

There is irony in this given that we built the roads in the UK and the railroads in America.

Hector Savage

Tell me how wrote: »

There is irony in this given that we built the roads in the UK and the railroads in America.

Of course, I'm talking about the management of it, not the actual engineers/architects involved.

Tell me how

Hector Savage wrote: »

Of course, I'm talking about the management of it, not the actual engineers/architects involved.

I think what we'd need is the German attitude to developing strategies for all of society and to be willing to accept the concept of 'the greater good'.

(I bet there are people in Germany having the same conversations we are having mind)

awec

Hector Savage wrote: »

Incentives for big companies to have headquarters in places other than Dublin - and incentive will follow for people to move...

Decent public transport system too - get the Germans in to help us, don't let spud munching inbred Micks (it's ok , it's not racist , I'm Irish myself :P ) do it.

Thats a start.

A prerequisite to decent public transport is decent rural planning.

DEFTLEFTHAND

GAA Beo wrote: »

You mention GAA, I could see Dublin winning 10 in a row. People will probably get fed up and just watch club football! Most counties haven't a hope anyway.

At least the hurling is competitive.

About 8 counties could win the AI this year.

Tell me how

awec wrote: »

A prerequisite to decent public transport is decent rural planning.

How is it a prerequisite?
The conversations we here about public transport are often focussed on the experience within towns/cities, a significant portion of this traffic originates within that area.

markpb

Tell me how wrote: »

How is it a prerequisite?
The conversations we here about public transport are often focussed on the experience within towns/cities, a significant portion of this traffic originates within that area.

Do those towns have proper land use plans in place for the next 30 years? Have they identified the edges of the urban areas beyond which development will be discouraged? Have they identified core residential and employment areas and mapped out appropriate densities that will be allowed/enforced for those areas?

Tell me how

markpb wrote: »

Do those towns have proper land use plans in place for the next 30 years? Have they identified the edges of the urban areas beyond which development will be discouraged? Have they identified core residential and employment areas and mapped out appropriate densities that will be allowed/enforced for those areas?

Does that not fall under the category of urban planning?

Tell me how

1,500 jobs announced for a single company in Dublin yesterday.

Salesforce

That is good news, I'm not ignoring that, but it echoes the concerns expressed in this thread that it is shoehorning more and more in to the capital and will likely end up with many commuting from outside it in to very heart of the city every day.

It involves building a new facility on the northside docklands, I wonder were there any efforts by the IDA to promote an alternative location somewhere else in the country.

dotsman

Tell me how wrote: »

1,500 jobs announced for a single company in Dublin yesterday.

Salesforce

That is good news, I'm not ignoring that, but it echoes the concerns expressed in this thread that it is shoehorning more and more in to the capital and will likely end up with many commuting from outside it in to very heart of the city every day.

It involves building a new facility on the northside docklands, I wonder were there any efforts by the IDA to promote an alternative location somewhere else in the country.

And probably more to come (this announcement brings their size to 2,900, but the office they are taking on is suitable for 4,000-5,000 staff).

They had to move to IFSC. They are currently based out in some grey soulless industrial estate in some stupid place like leapardstown that ~80% & of the Dublin population can't commute to (and most ideal staff wouldn't want to even if they could) and they have no ability to attract talent. So to expand, they had to move.

Unfortunately, with Dublin having zero strategic planning in the past few decades, as the Irish Times puts it, there's nowhere for the staff to live. All the Sheriff Street area and East Wall etc should have been demolished years ago and built up to be part of a modern city. Unfortunately, with Sinn Fein running Dublin's planning, that never happened (and likely won't in the foreseeable future).

awec

Tell me how wrote: »

1,500 jobs announced for a single company in Dublin yesterday.

Salesforce

That is good news, I'm not ignoring that, but it echoes the concerns expressed in this thread that it is shoehorning more and more in to the capital and will likely end up with many commuting from outside it in to very heart of the city every day.

It involves building a new facility on the northside docklands, I wonder were there any efforts by the IDA to promote an alternative location somewhere else in the country.

Salesforce are already in Dublin, they are hardly going to make their existing staff commute to somewhere down the country all of a sudden.

Tell me how

awec wrote: »

Salesforce are already in Dublin, they are hardly going to make their existing staff commute to somewhere down the country all of a sudden.

1500 new staff would hardly be classed as existing staff would they?

Potential for 2nd location may have been alternative. I'm not suggesting it definitely should have been or easy or anything simplistic like that. But that I'm wondering was it even considered.

Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Tell me how wrote: »

1500 new staff would hardly be classed as existing staff would they?

Potential for 2nd location may have been alternative. I'm not suggesting it definitely should have been or easy or anything simplistic like that. But that I'm wondering was it even considered.

Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.

People who come to live here want to live and work in the city centre.

awec

Tell me how wrote: »

1500 new staff would hardly be classed as existing staff would they?

Potential for 2nd location may have been alternative. I'm not suggesting it definitely should have been or easy or anything simplistic like that. But that I'm wondering was it even considered.

Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.

Leopardstown is not really soulless and unsuitable. There are loads of companies in Leopardstown and Sandyford, the place is buzzing during the day. At night there is not a lot going on, but not really sure why Salesforce employees would care about that unless they decide to live there too.

It's the same old problem at the end of the day. Salesforce want to hire from the upper echelons of the talent pool. Those people don't want to live down the country.

snotboogie

Tell me how wrote: »

Newstalk covered the experience of Limerick city since Dell closed 10 years ago yesterday evening.

The Hard Shoulder

Willie O'Dea and John Moran (interim chair of land development agency)

Some very interesting points made by John Moran in particular.

Dell never closed in Limerick, they employ 1000+ people in the city to this day

snotboogie

Tell me how wrote: »

I think there are other reasons why Ireland has remained rural. A very high percentage of the country is highly desirable to live in from a health and aesthetics perspective. Also, it is a small country. I know several living in Clare/Dublin/Limerick who travel to Dublin for work 1 - 2 days a week without it feeling like it's a massive burden to do so.



One possible issue with such a system is that if areas such as, for example, Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Wexford, Portlaoise, Mullingar, Cavan Town etc were identified as areas where industry was going to be targeted, other towns/cities would feel that they were being abandoned and should have been selected in the first place. Ennis for example would probably feel aggrieved but realistically, its location between limerick and Galway might mean that this is the case. But then, are you accepting that 1 hour + commute to work is acceptable

There is a horrible education and understanding of the demographics of this country. I have no idea why the CSO use city council areas as their headlines for population, since many are 50+ years old. Cork has multiple suburbs with double the population of Cavan town, Douglas has a larger population than all of the towns on your list except Limerick and Galway. Cork with 220k in its direct urban area and nearly 400k in its commuter belt hardly belongs in the same category as Mullingar or Sligo that have 20k populations.

Tell me how

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

People who come to live here want to live and work in the city centre.

What about those that already live here outside the city centre who want to work?

Tell me how

snotboogie wrote: »

Dell never closed in Limerick, they employ 1000+ people in the city to this day

You know as well as I do the closure referred to the closure of the pc manufacturing plant.
What still exists is not manufacturing.

The manufacturing facilitated a lot more ancillary activity with local companies than R&D and finance do.

RR Donnelly (Banta) had up to 700 employees at one point and were one of Dell's main suppliers. They closed after Dell manufacturing left.

snotboogie wrote: »

There is a horrible education and understanding of the demographics of this country. I have no idea why the CSO use city council areas as their headlines for population, since many are 50+ years old. Cork has multiple suburbs with double the population of Cavan town, Douglas has a larger population than all of the towns on your list except Limerick and Galway. Cork with 220k in its direct urban area and nearly 400k in its commuter belt hardly belongs in the same category as Mullingar or Sligo that have 20k populations.

What's your point? What I was implying there is scope for placing businesses outside Dublin.

Tell me how

awec wrote: »

Leopardstown is not really soulless and unsuitable. There are loads of companies in Leopardstown and Sandyford, the place is buzzing during the day. At night there is not a lot going on, but not really sure why Salesforce employees would care about that unless they decide to live there too.

It's the same old problem at the end of the day. Salesforce want to hire from the upper echelons of the talent pool. Those people don't want to live down the country.

Both elements of the point in bold are somewhat debatable.

Many people would rather live down the country and work somewhat locally (which realistically involve some degree of commuting as it will in Dublin also).
How do we change the perception of life in other parts of the country if we don't actively encourage companies to locate there.
I don't think it is the right approach to let companies who want to locate in Dublin City centre dictate the strategy for the entire country.
The country is not that big (smaller than florida). I live in Ennis, and as have posted before, have regularly gone to shows in Dublin and can still get in to bed in Ennis at around 01:30. The idea that living in Dublin is the only way to enjoy its appeal and that the rest of the country is akin to living in solitude and desolation is part of what needs to change.

snotboogie

Tell me how wrote: »

You know as well as I do the closure referred to the closure of the pc manufacturing plant.
What still exists is not manufacturing.

The manufacturing facilitated a lot more ancillary activity with local companies than R&D and finance do.

RR Donnelly (Banta) had up to 700 employees at one point and were one of Dell's main suppliers. They closed after Dell manufacturing left.



What's your point? What I was implying there is scope for placing businesses outside Dublin.

Most people do not get that distinction and it’s an important one. I’d say that Dell are still the biggest multinational employer in Limerick, they never closed and they have been expanding in the last 18 months.

The point is that there is a massive difference between persuading a multinational company to come to Cork and Mullingar. There is hundreds of millions of Grade A city centre office space for 10,000 employees under construction by the private sector in Cork now (Navigation Square, Penrose Dock and Horgans Quay) along with one major scheme (One Albert Quay) and two smaller schemes (85 South Mall and The Capitol) finished in the last year. There is a grand total of one (publicly funded) grade A office scheme under construction or finished between all of the other towns and cities you have mentioned combined, the hanging gardens in Limerick.

Tell me how

snotboogie wrote: »

Most people do not get that distinction and it’s an important one. I’d say that Dell are still the biggest multinational employer in Limerick, they never closed and they have been expanding in the last 18 months.

The point is that there is a massive difference between persuading a multinational company to come to Cork and Mullingar. There is hundreds of millions of Grade A city centre office space for 10,000 employees under construction by the private sector in Cork now (Navigation Square, Penrose Dock and Horgans Quay) along with one major scheme (One Albert Quay) and two smaller schemes (85 South Mall and The Capitol) finished in the last year. There is a grand total of one (publicly funded) grade A office schemes under construction or finished between all of the other towns and cities you have mentioned combined.

I disagree that most people view Dell as never having left Limerick given that many would have known about them through the companies which supplied them as much as the actual business the delivered then as compared to now.

It goes without saying that there is a difference between Cork and Mullingar. But that does not mean that no companies be considered for (Mullingar or other places like it) until Cork is full to capacity.

The whole point is trying to correct some of the massive imbalance we have with the % of the population living in Dublin.

snotboogie

Tell me how wrote: »

I disagree that most people view Dell as never having left Limerick given that many would have known about them through the companies which supplied them as much as the actual business the delivered then as compared to now.

It goes without saying that there is a difference between Cork and Mullingar. But that does not mean that no companies be considered for (Mullingar or other places like it) until Cork is full to capacity.

The whole point is trying to correct some of the massive imbalance we have with the % of the population living in Dublin.

I don’t get your point on Dell? Yes they downsized and massively changed their business portfolio in the city but the fact is that they never left Limerick. Yes suppliers shut down but Dell kept a strong and now growing employment base in Limerick.

I think we need to reflect the reality of our urban areas in our expectations for our cities. Cork is unlikely to score a major blue chip Bay Area tech company for over 1,000 employees in the next few years. The construction industry has been focusing on financial services (Clearstream and KPMG) cyber security (forcepoint, keeper, alienvault and Tyco) and smaller regional offices for the big tech companies (Amazon and Facebook) to fill their new builds. The likes of Sligo will be looking to smaller up and coming tech firms as they don’t have the space for 500+ staff like you find in Cork.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Tell me how wrote: »

What about those that already live here outside the city centre who want to work?

The city centre is easier to get to. On average.

gandalf

IMHO our best bet is to build up our other cities, Galway, Cork & Limerick and try and get furture MNC's to base themselves there. Atm everything is too Dublin centric and it is strangling the capital. At least if we spread the opportunities between all the major cities it makes it commutable from most of the country. Companies and especially MNC's are going to want to be based somewhere where there is a certain scale of infrastructure so every town in every county is never going to be a choice for them but at least if the IDA promote the major cities equally then it should mean that there will be more companies basing themselves in the three other major cities. Couple that with an emphasis on infrastructure improvement on the West Coast and I can see a bright future for us.

Del.Monte

What are all these companies going to do when the Docklands area needs to be evacuated due to rising sea levels? Just asking here as I have done in several other threads over recent years - never had a reply let alone an answer.

Undividual

lawred2 wrote: »

and?

things change

The logic of unquestioning conformity. Where to start with this kind of mentality.

Who decides how things change? How do those people come to the relevant conclusions? If things change, I assume each person can have some hand in how those things change, or in ensuring that some things do not change. As such, conversing over these subjects (as on this forum) is a way for individuals to develop a deeper understanding which will inform their future course/s of action.

It is frustrating that some people think being opposed to some change automatically means that you are ignorant or intolerant in some way.

Undividual

Del.Monte wrote: »

What are all these companies going to do when the Docklands area needs to be evacuated due to rising sea levels? Just asking here as I have done in several other threads over recent years - never had a reply let alone an answer.

I'm guessing it'd be cheaper to raise the IFSC/Liffey walls to prevent flooding than move offices. There are cities in the world which exist below sea level.

Tell me how

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The city centre is easier to get to. On average.

Debatable. But if so, that is part of the problem.