No vision for a rapidly changing Ireland

Tell me how

dotsman wrote: »

I fully agree that our other cities should be promoted (towns will never be suitable for vast majority of companies). However, right now, our other cities are just mini Dublins, suffering from the exact same horrific planning and resulting problems. What large office space exists in Cork/Limerick/Galway city-centers with excellent public transport options? Salesforce weren't going to move from some stupid commercial park on the outskirts of Dublin to some stupid commercial park on the outskirts of Cork. Even if some magical office space opened up in Cork City, and Salesforce moved there, you would have the exact same problem but with Salesforce having a much smaller potential employee pool to choose from.

We have to build it first, then promote it.

Dealing with our towns and rural Ireland is a different conversation again!

It's not just about the 1500 job companies.

Many niche engineering, R&D and bio-science companies have less than 100 employees. I'm suggesting promoting appropriate sized businesses for appropriate town/city sizes.

Your point on the potential employee pool is relevant but it would be nice to think of people being ok with commuting to Navan/Mullingar for example as opposed to just in to Dublin or a big city.

I'm not sure about building new venues as we (as others have said) don't do that very well and I also think we have already quite a well spread out network of towns/cities.

PARlance

Let's leave the finer detail for another day.

What will this new City be called?

Ush1

Yara Ripe Lasso wrote: »

Scale of opportunity, 5yrs of solid non-stop, large scale work for a start.
(Not to be built in/on Mullingar or any other town), but in the most central, sparsely populated area.

There are countless 'new cities' appearing across Asia and even Africa. One in S.Korea (Songdo, 130,000 population) was built on soggy marshland within 15yrs. They planned public transport so well, are considering banishing cars from it.

Why would builders build loads of offices where there would be no demand for them?

snotboogie

Yara Ripe Lasso wrote: »

Scale of opportunity, 5yrs of solid non-stop, large scale work for a start.
(Not to be built in/on Mullingar or any other town), but in the most central, sparsely populated area.

There are countless 'new cities' appearing across Asia and even Africa. One in S.Korea (Songdo, 130,000 population) was built on soggy marshland within 15yrs. They planned public transport so well, are considering banishing cars from it.

Who is guaranteeing this work? 5 years non stop large scale work for who?

Sogndo is in greater Seoul, its more a new suburb than a new city

ToBeFrank123

Yara Ripe Lasso wrote: »

Scale of opportunity, 5yrs of solid non-stop, large scale work for a start.
(Not to be built in/on Mullingar or any other town), but in the most central, sparsely populated area.

There are countless 'new cities' appearing across Asia and even Africa. One in S.Korea (Songdo, 130,000 population) was built on soggy marshland within 15yrs. They planned public transport so well, are considering banishing cars from it.

You'd wonder whether it would be cheaper to rebuild Dublin to meet current or future needs or as you say start a new city close by from scratch. Either way it will take billions.

An outer M50 type ringroad would be a start as its not possible to add new lanes to the existing one.

The bigger the population of Dublin becomes the more pressure inevitably comes on the current M50 as well as other key transport links. I'd imagine the M50 is pretty close to capacity now.

markpb

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

An outer M50 type ringroad would be a start as its not possible to add new lanes to the existing one.

The bigger the population of Dublin becomes the more pressure inevitably comes on the current M50 as well as other key transport links. I'd imagine the M50 is pretty close to capacity now.

The M50 is already far past it's design capacity. Building another one is a foolish move that won't benefit anyone except from road builders.

ToBeFrank123

snotboogie wrote: »

Who is going the build the Grade A office buildings in Mullingar or wherever? You need to give developers incentives? What incentives can we offer them?

We can start by telling the Silicon Valley execs they build there or p*ss off.

The main reason they are in Ireland is not for the hipster atmosphere in D2.

They are here for the low corporation tax rate which is worth billions to some of these companies. They can easily put up with the inconvenience of not being headquartered in D2 Hipsterville.

The problem is our government is weak. When Facebook and Google say Jump, our politicians ask "How high?"

ohnonotgmail

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

We can start by telling the Silicon Valley execs they build there or p*ss off.

The main reason they are in Ireland is not for the hipster atmosphere in D2.

They are here for the low corporation tax rate which is worth billions to some of these companies. They can easily put up with the inconvenience of not being headquartered in D2 Hipsterville.

The problem is our government is weak. When Facebook and Google say Jump, our politicians ask "How high?"

you should consider applying for a job with the IDA.

markpb

Yara Ripe Lasso wrote: »

But if it's surrounded by a dozen (or two) towns to commute to for shopping, schools, recreation the load can be shared and developed from what exists already.

If your new town doesn't have those things, why would anyone want to live there? Why wouldn't they live in the places that actually have those things?

Right now, I can walk my daughter to school (15 minutes), take the Luas to bring the baby to creche (5 minutes) and then walk to work. At lunch, I can pop out to a wide selection of shops, restaurants and cafes. In the evenings, it's a 10 minute Luas trip to the cinema or shopping centre. It's a 5 minute drive up the mountain to go for a hike at the weekends.

Your proposed town would have me commute to another town to bring at least one child to school and would have no job for my wife (who's not in IT). It would have me drive to the cinema (so no drinks afterwards).

How is this attractive?

Ush1

PARlance wrote: »

Let's leave the finer detail for another day.

What will this new City be called?

BallyMegaCity1

markpb

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The problem is our government is weak. When Facebook and Google say Jump, our politicians ask "How high?"

I guess you could ignore the billions that these companies pour into Ireland between wages, PAYE, PRSI, USC, CGT and corporation tax. I suppose if you think we could do without all that money, we could be a lot more principled about it.

Back in the real world, companies setup where they find it most attractive. That might be because of office space, tax, infrastructure or employees. If Dublin is attractive and Athlone is not, that's what we should be fixing. This isn't China, you can't tell a company where to setup.

James Brown

Does anyone else get the impression that Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael are chancers riding the wave of societal change? I mean they seem to be watching to see what's happening then jumping in to try make a few bob off of it, (see environment/IW, Broadband/dinners, housing crisis/inappropriate behaviour). The idea that they've plans ahead of current trends outside of how to make a few bob off of it seems unlikely to me.

TheValeyard

Ush1 wrote: »

BallyMegaCity1

Called Murphyville Actually...








Jaysus: http://judgedredd.wikia.com/wiki/Murphyville

ToBeFrank123

Ush1 wrote: »

BallyMegaCity1

Or we could call it Hipsterville.

Put a few slides and roller coasters in the centre of town so the hipster/permachildren enjoy themselves. Skateboard and cycle lanes a plenty.
Make sure there's enough Costas, too. No need for launderettes though, they can bring the washing home to mammy.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

We can start by telling the Silicon Valley execs they build there or p*ss off.

The main reason they are in Ireland is not for the hipster atmosphere in D2.

They are here for the low corporation tax rate which is worth billions to some of these companies. They can easily put up with the inconvenience of not being headquartered in D2 Hipsterville.

The problem is our government is weak. When Facebook and Google say Jump, our politicians ask "How high?"

The companies may be here for the tax break, the workers are here for the job. They don’t want to live out the sticks.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Or we could call it Hipsterville.

Put a few slides and roller coasters in the centre of town so the hipster/permachildren enjoy themselves. Skateboard and cycle lanes a plenty.
Make sure there's enough Costas, too. No need for launderettes though, they can bring the washing home to mammy.

You realise most of these people will have moved country? It’s unlikely they are going to fly home to get the washing done.

ToBeFrank123

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The companies may be here for the tax break, the workers are here for the job. They don’t want to live out the sticks.

And that's why we have a housing crisis. Congrats for spotting it.

Dublin is seen as a cool place to live, not sure why. Every young person in Europe thinks Dublin is a great city, nice pint of Guinness, Temple Bar, blah blah. They all want to live here. Soon they realise the truth, its overpriced and overhyped with a diminishing quality of life with every passing year.

ToBeFrank123

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You realise most of these people will have moved country? It’s unlikely they are going to fly home to get the washing done.

I was probably being too facetious with that bit. We can build them a few launderettes next to the Costas.

PARlance

Ush1 wrote: »

BallyMegaCity1

Would be too confusing when they get their Premier League team.

BallyMegaCity1 United 2 - Liverpool 3

markpb

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Dublin is seen as a cool place to live, not sure why. Every young person in Europe thinks Dublin is a great city, nice pint of Guinness, Temple Bar, blah blah. They all want to live here. Soon they realise the truth, its overpriced and overhyped with a diminishing quality of life with every passing year.

When I see posts like this, I begin to wonder if some peoples concern for Rural Ireland is actually just a polite expression of the chip they have on their shoulder against Dublin. Perhaps they don't really care if Castlebar gets more jobs, they would just prefer if Dublin didn't get them.

Riskymove

PARlance wrote: »

Would be too confusing when they get their Premier League team.

BallyMegaCity1 United 2 - Liverpool 3

Forfar 5 Fyffe 4

AllForIt

Sardonicat wrote: »

I don't see the decline of pub 'culture' as a loss TBH.

It is if it's replaced by folk drinking at home often alone and not getting any social interaction out of it whilst swiping on Tinder.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

And that's why we have a housing crisis. Congrats for spotting it.

Dublin is seen as a cool place to live, not sure why. Every young person in Europe thinks Dublin is a great city, nice pint of Guinness, Temple Bar, blah blah. They all want to live here. Soon they realise the truth, its overpriced and overhyped with a diminishing quality of life with every passing year.

It’s grand if you live in the centre with no transport problems. Parts are rough but that’s true everywhere.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I was probably being too facetious with that bit. We can build them a few launderettes next to the Costas.

I still think they’d prefer to live in a city. Even if you built loads of Costas in castle bar. I also doubt that the Italians or the Europeans in General are coming here for the coffee but who knows.

Tell me how

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s grand if you live in the centre with no transport problems. Parts are rough but that’s true everywhere.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I still think they’d prefer to live in a city. Even if you built loads of Costas in castle bar. I also doubt that the Italians or the Europeans in General are coming here for the coffee but who knows.

It's grand if you live in the centre with no transport problems. :eek:

FFS, so the only livable part of the country is within a walking distance from the Spire.

That is not a good position for a country to be in. And why we need a national approach to making the best use of the country.

Unfortunately, too many in position to influence seem to hold similar views to yourself.

LirW

There's no hope, you need to gut the whole place and rebuild it for current needs. Multi storey living, superb public transport in order to get people to use it on a large scale. Disband Bus Eireann and replace it with something that actually works.
Build high speed rail links to other cities and towns via hubs in a few central locations in the Midlands, Athlone servicing the North and NW, Portlaoise the West and Southwest with a link to Cork and Carlow servicing the Southeast.

Space within the M50 is so badly used, you might as well start again.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Tell me how wrote: »

It's grand if you live in the centre with no transport problems. :eek:

FFS, so the only livable part of the country is within a walking distance from the Spire.

You do come up with ridiculous strawman arguments. The high earning worker wants to live in the centre. He doesn’t know or care about Tallaght.

That is not a good position for a country to be in. And why we need a national approach to making the best use of the country.

Cork is nice. Then theres.. no that’s it. Building a new town in the midlands isn’t going to work. Not for mobile in demand immigrants. Maybe for decentralised government workers but even there they clearly resisted and it didn’t happen. There’s a lesson there. Somewhere. If only we could work out what it was

Unfortunately, too many in position to influence seem to hold similar views to yourself.

My “views” are literally telling you what these high paid immigrants prefer, which makes a lot more sense than your sneers at both Dublin and the immigrants themselves.

Prince William

The world is a much smaller place now, very few (possibly none) young people want to spend their whole lifes in a one horse town, drinking in the local old man pub and shopping in the local overpriced corner shop.

ToBeFrank123

markpb wrote: »

When I see posts like this, I begin to wonder if some peoples concern for Rural Ireland is actually just a polite expression of the chip they have on their shoulder against Dublin. Perhaps they don't really care if Castlebar gets more jobs, they would just prefer if Dublin didn't get them.

Not a very mature response. Its obvious that politicians as well as people like yourself fail to understand the huge and increasing imbalance between supply and demand in Dublin accomodation. Even most Dubliners now recognise this or if they don't they should. It doesn't matter to me how many jobs go to Dublin. But forcing Joe Soap to move to Dublin and spend half their salary or more on accomodation doesn't seem very clever. In fact it's incredibly dumb. And yet planners and politicians plough ahead with fitting more people into Dublin without bothering with sustainable infrastructure or housing.

Tell me how

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You do come up with ridiculous strawman arguments. The high earning worker wants to live in the centre. He doesn’t know or care about Tallaght.



Cork is nice. Then theres.. no that’s it. Building a new town in the midlands isn’t going to work. Not for mobile in demand immigrants. Maybe for decentralised government workers but even there they clearly resisted and it didn’t happen. There’s a lesson there. Somewhere. If only we could work out what it was



My “views” are literally telling you what these high paid immigrants prefer, which makes a lot more sense than your sneers at both Dublin and the immigrants themselves.

You're right. Every worker in the country is a high earner and they all aspire to living on bachelor's walk.

ToBeFrank123

Prince William wrote: »

The world is a much smaller place now, very few (possibly none) young people want to spend their whole lifes in a one horse town, drinking in the local old man pub and shopping in the local overpriced corner shop.

Yep clean air, lack of traffic, cheap housing, a short commuting time and all round better quality of life.
How terrible!
Far better to pay 600 euro to rent a box room in a Dublin suburb and spend hours commuting each day.

markpb

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Yep clean air, lack of traffic, cheap housing, a short commuting time and all round better quality of life.
How terrible!
Far better to pay 600 euro to rent a box room in a Dublin suburb and spend hours commuting each day.

It's good to see you're keeping an open mind!

ToBeFrank123

LirW wrote: »

There's no hope, you need to gut the whole place and rebuild it for current needs. Multi storey living, superb public transport in order to get people to use it on a large scale. Disband Bus Eireann and replace it with something that actually works.
Build high speed rail links to other cities and towns via hubs in a few central locations in the Midlands, Athlone servicing the North and NW, Portlaoise the West and Southwest with a link to Cork and Carlow servicing the Southeast.

Space within the M50 is so badly used, you might as well start again.

I agree there is no hope for Dublin. Its a complete basketcase and will only get worse. At this stage you'd need a number of 50 story buildings to come close to solving its problems.
And yet we are still allowing planning for new buildings in the city centre and docklands that are no more than a few stories high. Insanity.

ToBeFrank123

markpb wrote: »

It's good to see you're keeping an open mind!

Well when its phrased as a once horse town or Dublin choice we are all in trouble.

We need to work better at providing alternatives to Dublin.

The housing crisis is a sign Dublin can't cope. This is a fact not an opinion. If it was just an opinion we wouldn't be talking about a housing crisis.

markpb

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Well when its phrased as a once horse town or Dublin choice we are all in trouble.

We need to work better at providing alternatives to Dublin.

The housing crisis is a sign Dublin can't cope. This is a fact not an opinion. If it was just an opinion we wouldn't be talking about a housing crisis.

The housing crisis is because we built no accommodation for almost a decade, are experiencing rapid growth and can't build fast enough to keep up. It's nota sign of anything. If some random company decided to create 1,500 jobs in Cork (or any other town or city in Ireland) tomorrow, do you think we'd keep up there either?

All you've done so far is say that you personally would prefer to live away from Dublin therefore everyone else should feel the same. Ironically, if all the jobs moved to where you live, it would become the very thing you hate.

Tell me how

awec wrote: »

The other cities in Ireland need to find their niche and promote that. They are wasting their time going after the tech multinationals, there is just no interest. Their staff and their prospective staff want to live in Dublin. That's where their community of peers are.

Apple have 3k plus in Cork.
Dell has 1k in Limerick
Galway, cork, Limerick, Shannon, Sligo, Mayo, Athlone and more have multinationals, albeit primarily in manufacturing but still with highly qualified and highly paid staff.

But, it isn't just about high-tech multinationals.
How many of such high-tech (ICT type) workers are there? 50k? 100K?
It isn't right that we manipulate the focus of our entire country to prioritize these which make up less than 5% of the workforce.

I think this idea that people only want to work in Dublin is false but we ourselves feed this falsehood by telling them and acting like it's the only place in the country that counts.

ToBeFrank123

markpb wrote: »

The housing crisis is because we built no accommodation for almost a decade, are experiencing rapid growth and can't build fast enough to keep up. It's nota sign of anything. If some random company decided to create 1,500 jobs in Cork (or any other town or city in Ireland) tomorrow, do you think we'd keep up there either?

All you've done so far is say that you personally would prefer to live away from Dublin therefore everyone else should feel the same. Ironically, if all the jobs moved to where you live, it would become the very thing you hate.

Fine Mark. Lets put a lot of new people in Dublin and not build accomodation as you pointed out.

What do you think will happen in the short to medium term?

Bearing in mind it can take years to design, get planning for and build accomodation. And supply will always be significantly behind demand in Dublin.

ToBeFrank123

I've nothing against Dublin if it was well planned and reasonably priced accomodation wise.
Its just the Dublin or bust mentality has created a situation that is not sustainable. Dublin needs a break from more people moving there until it starts to catch up accomodation wise. That's a reasonable and objective observation. Throwing more people into Dublin is akin to throwing fuel on a fire. Its not reasonable.

Not that the government, IDA or high paid Silicon execs care. All they care about is tax revenue or bonuses for themselves.

That tax revenue funds the health / education / welfare etc etc so of course they care about it.

ToBeFrank123

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

That tax revenue funds the health / education / welfare etc etc so of course they care about it.

Much of it is also used to fund hotels for the homeless and HAP payments. And the tax comes from hard pressed workers in these companies who struggle to pay rent. The corporations meanwhile pay nominal corporation tax.

riclad

I think young people are more likely to go to university and they move to citys
and large towns to find a good job or get an education .
This is not unique to ireland ,many towns in italy and other european countrys are declining ,young people are leaving .
The decline of pubs might be due to changing lifestyle , young people prefer to go for coffee instead of drink a pint,or they drink
at home .
drink driving laws are much more strict than they were in the 90,s .
i Do,nt know what the government can do to help small towns ,
they are struggling with the housing crisis and brexit .
It,ll be years before the national broadband plan is actually completed .

markpb

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fine Mark. Lets put a lot of new people in Dublin and not build accomodation as you pointed out.

What do you think will happen in the short to medium term?

Bearing in mind it can take years to design, get planning for and build accomodation. And supply will always be significantly behind demand in Dublin.

What I think is most likely is that Dublin will become uncompetitive, companies will struggle to attract employees and the jobs will go elsewhere. Some will go to other parts of the country, the majority will go to other parts of Europe. Growth will stagnate but overall, Dublin will be fine.

Other than your repeated dislike for Dublin and failure to understand how other people could have a differing opinion to you, what solution do you propose? In the short term, the other cities have the same lack of accommodation and infrastructure, the same sprawl and worse public transport. What’s your suggestion?

I think what you and others forget is that Ireland isn’t a centrally planned economy like Korea or China. The government doesn’t decide where people live and where jobs are. The government provides infrastructure and then the market decides what happens next. It isn’t some conspiracy by a Dublin government to spite rural Ireland. Bad planning and parochial politics are a nationwide issue but I think that Dublin, by virtue of its history, had enough scale to muddle along.

dotsman

snotboogie wrote: »

Horgans Quay and Penrose Dock? Navigation Square?

Plans to build a few 5 story buildings is simply a waste of precious space. Also, if these areas where to be build up properly (and host tens of thousands of workers), exactly where would these workers live? And how would they get to Horgans Quay/Penrose Dock etc? What underground/trams or rapid buses go from these places out to the various suburbs?

I even love the Navigation Square website trying to entice companies to locate there with 600,000 people within a 60km commute. Are they ****in serious???

snotboogie

dotsman wrote: »

Plans to build a few 5 story buildings is simply a waste of precious space. Also, if these areas where to be build up properly (and host tens of thousands of workers), exactly where would these workers live? And how would they get to Horgans Quay/Penrose Dock etc? What underground/trams or rapid buses go from these places out to the various suburbs?

I even love the Navigation Square website trying to entice companies to locate there with 600,000 people within a 60km commute. Are they ****in serious???

Penrose Dock is 9 stories as is Horgans Quay. Horgan's Quay and Penrose Dock are both right next to Kent Station and are on the planned new Luas line. Nav Sq is right across the river.

ToBeFrank123

markpb wrote: »

What I think is most likely is that Dublin will become uncompetitive, companies will struggle to attract employees and the jobs will go elsewhere. Some will go to other parts of the country, the majority will go to other parts of Europe.

Agreed.

Growth will stagnate but overall, Dublin will be fine.

Not really. It will have a long term housing shortage. Obvious result of demand far outweighing supply, particularly in the rental market where most of the new Salesforce/Facebook/etc workers will be living.

Other than your repeated dislike for Dublin and failure to understand how other people could have a differing opinion to you, what solution do you propose?

I said Dublin has the potential to be a great city if it was given the chance to catch up with housing demand so that residents are not worker bees working to live.

In the short term, the other cities have the same lack of accommodation and infrastructure, the same sprawl and worse public transport. What’s your suggestion?

Any suggestion I make will be countered with the usual "you hate Dublin, no-one wants to live outside Dublin or in the sticks, everyone wants to live in Dublin" response, so is there any point suggesting anything? One alternative I suggested was build up as per other cities struggling with over-population - eg Hong Kong or Singapore. We know that's not going to happen in Dublin though. Planners in Dublin City prefer to give planning permission to relatively low rise office blocks than very high rise apartments. Any new building less than 20 stories high in Dublin city centre is a missed opportunity to plan for the future.
An alternative to the M50 will also be needed for car traffic.

I think what you and others forget is that Ireland isn’t a centrally planned economy like Korea or China. The government doesn’t decide where people live and where jobs are. The government provides infrastructure and then the market decides what happens next. It isn’t some conspiracy by a Dublin government to spite rural Ireland. Bad planning and parochial politics are a nationwide issue but I think that Dublin, by virtue of its history, had enough scale to muddle along.

Muddle along. Well put. Muddle from one crisis to the next. The result of poor planning in Dublin.

No-one expects North Korea type central planning. We do expect our leaders to have long term vision and foresight though. You throw a lot of people into one area without accommodation, guess what, you end up with a housing crisis.

ToBeFrank123

Nimbyism at its finest from Dublin councillors.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/councillors-express-height-concerns-over-apartment-block-899225.html

Credit to Eoghan Murphy for removing the height limits.

conorhal

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ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I agree there is no hope for Dublin. Its a complete basketcase and will only get worse. At this stage you'd need a number of 50 story buildings to come close to solving its problems.
And yet we are still allowing planning for new buildings in the city centre and docklands that are no more than a few stories high. Insanity.

First you need an extensive underground system in place.


Imagine Manhattan, now imagine Manhattan transposed onto Dublin's medieval/Georgian street layout and remove the subway system and you will quickly see how fast adding height, without all the ancillary support structures to move a population around that city, will grind it to a halt.


BUILD THE DAMN METRO NOW GOVERNMENT!

facehugger99

conorhal wrote: »

BUILD THE DAMN METRO NOW GOVERNMENT!

Metro is a massive waste of money better spent elsewhere.

ToBeFrank123

conorhal wrote: »

[PHP][/PHP]


First you need an extensive underground system in place.


Imagine Manhattan, now imagine Manhattan transposed onto Dublin's medieval/Georgian street layout and remove the subway system and you will quickly see how fast adding height, without all the ancillary support structures to move a population around that city, will grind it to a halt.


BUILD THE DAMN METRO NOW GOVERNMENT!

When you build up, you also have to build down in terms of an underground. Fully agree with that. Making Dublin fit for purpose for an increased population will take substantial resources. Talking billions or even tens of billions in investment in infrastructure. It won't be cheap or easy.

conorhal

facehugger99 wrote: »

Metro is a massive waste of money better spent elsewhere.

I remember the front page of the papers with a picture of a sole car puttering down the M50 the day it opened, declaring it a 'white elephant'. Yeah, that actually happened.
That gobsheen economist Colm McCarthy who was full of advice during the bust also has his doubts about the METRO, but he is also the economist that called the DART a waste of money when it opened, so there is that.

I'm a big fan of the Chinese proverb that states, 'the best time to plant a tree is 20yrs ago, the second best time to plant a tree is today.'