Anyone Managed to get PP or a Log Home or Similar?

Brontosaurus

For anyone who has managed to get PP for a log home or anything unconventional:

Have you managed to get PP and meet building regs, and care to share a bit about your difficulties?

Thanks.

Not interested in naysayers thanks.

Gumbo

Brontosaurus wrote: »

For anyone who has managed to get PP for a log home or anything unconventional:

Have you managed to get PP and meet building regs, and care to share a bit about your difficulties?

Thanks.

Not interested in naysayers thanks.

This should be interesting.
Of all the companies out there, there doesn’t seem
To be any that can offer building regulation compliance. Not at least without spending big money, that you would have been better off building using traditional methods of construction in the first place.

Brontosaurus

Do you know a lot about the building regs?

What about a log house makes it inherently unlikely to pass regs, and what would you need to spend this big money on?

Metric Tensor

The most common way of complying with the building regulations is by meeting the requirements of the Technical Guidance Documents which go from Part A to Part M.

So called log cabins can have particular problems with:

B - Fire Safety
D - Workmanship and Materials (material certification)
L - Energy Conservation (A huge cost issue in all builds and by ignoring it unscrupulous sellers can appear to offer a bargain)
M - Access (Ramps, Doors, Toilet Sizes, Corridors, etc)

Many products on the market also fall well short of some of the other aspects of the regulations too. The cheapest way to build a compliant house is the way builders all over the country are already doing it. It's in their interests and the profit interests of developers to build compliant houses as cheap as possible.

Brontosaurus

Metric Tensor wrote: »

The most common way of complying with the building regulations is by meeting the requirements of the Technical Guidance Documents which go from Part A to Part M.

So called log cabins can have particular problems with:

B - Fire Safety
D - Workmanship and Materials (material certification)
L - Energy Conservation (A huge cost issue in all builds and by ignoring it unscrupulous sellers can appear to offer a bargain)
M - Access (Ramps, Doors, Toilet Sizes, Corridors, etc)

Many products on the market also fall well short of some of the other aspects of the regulations too. The cheapest way to build a compliant house is the way builders all over the country are already doing it. It's in their interests and the profit interests of developers to build compliant houses as cheap as possible.

B - I've asked a few manufacturers about fire safety, I'll see what they say.

D - I don't see material certification necessarily being an issue? what about a wooden structure would be an issue inherently?

L - Wooden houses tend to be very good at retaining heat, the houses I've seen and the prices I'm talking about include floor, roof and wall insulation. As it is a small structure, any sort of heater or stove would heat it up and retain heat very well.

M - The wood houses I've seen online and seen in person are more spacious than the apartment I lived in for the past 4 years. There are plenty of semi-detatched houses around the Dublin and North Wicklow area that are as cramped.

Does any house being built now require wheelchair access, even if I am building it for myself? I don't think door sizes or window sizes will be an issue.

Metric Tensor

All of those TGDs are available online for free. In general they are not difficult to read. All of the questions above are answered in them.

Part L on particular you need to read to have a proper grasp of what's required.

Just google "Technical Guidance Document L" or M or whatever and they will pop up.

To very quickly summarise:

Almost all construction materials must be certified - this applies to all types of construction. I've found when price comes down certification becomes more difficult to find.

L: All the elements have to meet certain insulation and air-tightness requirements. These glorified garden sheds do not come close in terms of insulation or air-tightness to a modern house. Also - all houses must generate renewable energy. Have the suppliers included the cost of solar panels or heat pumps or similar in what they have told you?

M: Yes. It must be possible for someone in a wheelchair to visit (not live in) any house. This is not difficult to achieve but takes up space. Also when you get old, get a sports injury, have kids, or your misses is pregnant their needs have to be met. It's not just a mythical guy ina wheelchair testing our your toilet or stairs.

Lumen

So planning aside, what's the cost of a small modular home that has a reasonable chance of meeting building regs?

This seems credible. £60k for 242sqft. So that's €3k/sqm. Plus services connections, presumably. Access would presumably be an issue too.

https://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/are-60k-homes-built-on-stilts-above-car-parks-the-answer-to-londons-housing-crisis-a101921.html

Small houses are more expensive because geometry.

Lumen

I've found a case study, with actual planning.

https://www.loghouse.ie/loghouse-sunday-independent
https://www.loghouse.ie/portfolio-items/super-insulated-thee-bedroom-log-house-oct-2016/

Planning files
http://www.eplanning.ie/WicklowCC/AppFileRefDetails/138528/0

Now, Wicklow CC's planning website is the most annoying, but it seems that tiled roof and napped plaster finish was required, although the promo shots show external wooden cladding rather than plaster. Which is odd, but maybe I've misread the docs.

And it cost €225k, all in.

gctest50

Lumen wrote: »

........

And it cost €225k, all in.

The bit by bit is interesting though :


"By the first day they had three-quarters of the house up,” he recalls.


The running costs of Trevor’s home clock in at around €85 a month


The house itself cost €89,000



It cost almost €100,000 less than the current price of €316,000 for an average Wicklow house, according to Daft.ie.



: “We have developed these cabins especially for the Irish climate and strong nearly horizontal rain drops,” says Karpavicius. “Our cabins are fitted with damp-proof membranes as standard. We have built over 2,700 cabins so far and only one was affected by Storm Ophelia,” he adds.

Lumen

gctest50 wrote: »

The bit by bit is interesting though :

"By the first day they had three-quarters of the house up,” he recalls.

The house itself cost €89,000

It cost almost €100,000 less than the current price of €316,000 for an average Wicklow house, according to Daft.ie.

Yeah. Well, you can see the site on Google Maps, and it's not big, so I am dubious about the implication from the supplier that all the extra costs went into landscaping and stuff. And of course it may have been supplied on a loss leader....

Nonetheless, it does seem to be an example of what could be reasonably be called a "log cabin", from a supplier of things which look (to my eyes) very much like sheds, but which has full planning permission as a dwelling house.

So either these things are capable of meeting all the TGDs, including Metric Tensor's points about certified materials, or something very odd has gone on.

gctest50

It would be a great job if you wanted to move out the country

Buy an existing cottage, demolish it and put up one of those

sydthebeat

gctest50 wrote: »

It would be a great job if you wanted to move out the country

Buy an existing cottage, demolish it and put up one of those

requires planing permission... and probably wouldnt be granted

Brontosaurus

Those log houses from -snip- were the ones I was mostly referring to, wasn't sure if I was allowed to reference businesses. They aren't glorified sheds at all, but I've said that already.

I got a reply from them here, edited for brevity:

"Log cabins are treated for fire safety and they have a fire delay of 30min at present, which could be extended to 60min by using some fire retardant paint/varnish, so that's the least important issue.

Standard residential log cabins does not meet current Part L section of building regulations. To get a log cabin to the latest building regulation standards is possible of course, but this will increase the cost of it quite a bit. With any project that involves planning permission, you would need to hire an architect who will be assisting you along the way. He will need to create some drawings for you and then we could price the up as a custom log cabin. Guideline price for building a residential log cabin which complies with all the latest building regulations is €140 per sq.m (based on at least 100sq.m in size)"

I didn't realize there was a minimum size, but oh well.

At €140 per 100sq.m it would cost 14,000 if that's an honest figure. Seems a bit low though.

There are also prefab -snip- like this one: snip/ apparently it cost 60k minus electrics, kitchen, plumbing etc. Under 100k total.


All in all it seems viable to me, it's more a case of convincing the powers at be who may be stuck in their ways.

If I had to guess it seems you could get away with finishing the house for the 50k mark, especially if you do furniture and extra stuff yourself which I aim to do. I also aim to do any landscaping myself. The biggest cost would be renewables, septic tank. hooking up to mains I guess?

Oh and needing wheelchair access and railing in the ****ter because nanny state has decided it must be so. I mean, no one in a wheelchair has the right to visit me, nor should I be forced into preparing for the possible future injuries and disabilities I may or may not endure, which I could just do at that point in the future...maybe I should make sure the blind can make their way around my house too while I'm at it, but I digress (I'm joking).

gctest50

sydthebeat wrote: »

requires planing permission...

Of course

sydthebeat wrote: »

and probably wouldnt be granted

You could flatten it and use the stone to build a nice stone wall in front and down the sides of the place - be lovely




No PP ? make it into a halting site for our less well off countrymen

Lumen

Brontosaurus wrote: »

Guideline price for building a residential log cabin which complies with all the latest building regulations is €140 per sq.m (based on at least 100sq.m in size)"

I didn't realize there was a minimum size, but oh well.

At €140 per 100sq.m it would cost 14,000 if that's an honest figure. Seems a bit low though.

That's not "a bit low", it is simply impossible.

BryanF

OP please read the forum charter before posting again

As per forum charter Some posts edited to remove reference to company names

BryanF

gctest50 wrote: »

Of course




You could flatten it and use the stone to build a nice stone wall in front and down the sides of the place - be lovely




No PP ? make it into a halting site for our less well off countrymen

Enough
The Next discriminatory post will lead to forum ban

dathi

Lumen wrote: »

I've found a case study, with actual planning.



Now, Wicklow CC's planning website is the most annoying, but it seems that tiled roof and napped plaster finish was required, although the promo shots show external wooden cladding rather than plaster. Which is odd, but maybe I've misread the docs.

.

no you read the docs correctly a napped plaster was requested by the council and revised drawings were submitted showing the house with plaster finish, but then they built it with the logs exterior

MackDeToaster

Interestingly, a 3-bed one of those cabins has been built in Laois in the past year with full planning permission granted.

Brontosaurus

Lumen wrote: »

That's not "a bit low", it is simply impossible.

Possibly. The house referenced cost about €486 per square meter. From what I've seen a conventional home would cost around 1k per square meter. It's still a lot cheaper.

Gumbo

MackDeToaster wrote: »

Interestingly, a 3-bed one of those cabins has been built in Laois in the past year with full planning permission granted.

Have you got a link to the planning permission.
It’s on the public website of the council.

Gumbo

MackDeToaster wrote: »

Interestingly, a 3-bed one of those cabins has been built in Laois in the past year with full planning permission granted.

kceire wrote: »

Have you got a link to the planning permission.
It’s on the public website of the council.

Any update on this?
Did it really happen?

Lumen

kceire wrote: »

Any update on this?
Did it really happen?

I have heard via Facebook posts that Laois is particularly relaxed about these developments, but haven't managed to coax any examples out of people, only that Wicklow one which appears to include a planning violation.

sydthebeat

Lumen wrote: »

I have heard via Facebook posts that Laois is particularly relaxed about these developments, but haven't managed to coax any examples out of people, only that Wicklow one which appears to include a planning violation.

i work in laois

no its not

Gumbo

Lumen wrote: »

I have heard via Facebook posts that Laois is particularly relaxed about these developments, but haven't managed to coax any examples out of people, only that Wicklow one which appears to include a planning violation.

They may as well not have planning for what they've constructed on site!

Lumen

sydthebeat wrote: »

i work in laois

no its not

Sorry, I think it was Louth, was getting my 'L's mixed up. But it's still probably chinese whispers nonsense.

MackDeToaster

kceire wrote: »

Have you got a link to the planning permission.
It’s on the public website of the council.

http://old.laois.ie/idocsWebDPSS/listFiles.aspx?catalog=planning&id=16378

sydthebeat

MackDeToaster wrote: »

http://old.laois.ie/idocsWebDPSS/listFiles.aspx?catalog=planning&id=16378

The FI in that permission states that the house is to be finished in local stone work.... And the conditions state nap render or local stone work

Ie not a log cabin

Gumbo

MackDeToaster wrote: »

http://old.laois.ie/idocsWebDPSS/listFiles.aspx?catalog=planning&id=16378

Not a log cabin

Lumen

Free shed for anyone that can find a planning compliant log cabin?

:pac:

SemperFidelis

There's this one in Monaghan

https://selfbuild.ie/uncategorized/the-house-the-fireman-built/

Graham

SemperFidelis wrote: »

There's this one in Monoghan

https://selfbuild.ie/uncategorized/the-house-the-fireman-built/

That's a fairly different beast to the type of cabins most people have in mind when they start posting about "log cabins".

Given when/where it was built I can't imagine there was much of a saving (if any) over a more traditional self build.

It looks fantastic though, fair play to the homeowner. It certainly demonstrates what's possible with logs and a realistic budget.

Lumen

Graham wrote: »

Given when/where it was built I can't imagine there was much of a saving (if any) over a more traditional self build.

Indeed....

House size: 2,100 sqft
Total cost including kit, fit-out and furnishings: €296,000

So that's €1500/sqm, which can't be extrapolated (?) down to 25sqm or whatever for obvious reasons, like higher quantity of materials, increased u-value requirements, fixed costs of water connections.

In terms of timber finishes I'd prefer shingles like this one under construction up north, but it's a conventional build underneath.

Gumbo

SemperFidelis wrote: »

There's this one in Monaghan

https://selfbuild.ie/uncategorized/the-house-the-fireman-built/

Somehow, when people on boards post about wanting log cabins in their back garden, this is not what they want......

From the site you linked :

Site size: 4 acres
House size: 2,100 sqft
Total cost including kit, fit-out and furnishings: €296,000

woody1

Lumen wrote: »

Sorry, I think it was Louth, was getting my 'L's mixed up. But it's still probably chinese whispers nonsense.

worked in louth years ago, they were very much not easy going about anything at that stage,

SemperFidelis

kceire wrote: »

Somehow, when people on boards post about wanting log cabins in their back garden, this is not what they want......

From the site you linked :

I agree, it's what I'd like though.

An_Toirpin

sydthebeat wrote: »

The FI in that permission states that the house is to be finished in local stone work.... And the conditions state nap render or local stone work

Ie not a log cabin

One of the things that kills me about these planning conditions is that a local stone finish is anything but traditional in Ireland. Stone should nearly always be plastered. But yeah off topic.

Gumbo

An_Toirpin wrote: »

One of the things that kills me about these planning conditions is that a local stone finish is anything but traditional in Ireland. Stone should nearly always be plastered. But yeah off topic.

I’m not mad on stone finish myself. I like it on boundary walls in some form of detail in places but not on the main house.

Metric Tensor

An_Toirpin wrote: »

One of the things that kills me about these planning conditions is that a local stone finish is anything but traditional in Ireland. Stone should nearly always be plastered. But yeah off topic.

Although in some cases I like a stone finish you are spot on with this point - the vast majority of old "stone" buildings were rendered and were built to be rendered. It's amazing how few people realise this.

Tacitus Kilgore

Really not a fan of the stone porches etc that seem to be required in conditions.

Going for planning later in the year and really hoping that stone isnt a stipulation.

WiseMona

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Really not a fan of the stone porches etc that seem to be required in conditions.

Going for planning later in the year and really hoping that stone isnt a stipulation.

We submitted planning for a Scandinavian timber home, and stone was not a stipulation. It will have a resin whitewash finish..