Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

James Brown

iamwhoiam wrote: »

They are going elsewhere . We are loosing nurses daily to UK , Australia , Dubai and Canada .
And the queues of foreign nurses has slowed down now as they look to Dubai and Australia too

Because we pay the Nurses too much obviously

You'd have to wonder.
They'd rather fund hotels, B&B's and private rentals than finance affordable or social housing and they'll merrily see health spends on agency staff over Nurses. ****ty management or something else?

TrixIrl

It’s been mentioned a few times about the spend on agency nurses. Totally agree that the nurses should be hired in-house and increase numbers. From experience tho, many nurses choose to stay as agency because they can pick their own hours, decide never to work another Christmas Day if they don’t want to, not “have” to pay into pension and PRD etc, move wards/hospitals as suits them, work around childcare etc.

After the hse recruitment embargo was lifted, 99% of new agency nurses were those who had previously been HSE and still wanted to work in HSE hospitals but had been turned down in their requests to reduce hours, move closer to home, look for flexibility or move to a 9-5 for a better work life balance. Often times we’d see a nurse leave a hospital on a Friday and return to same ward on the following Monday but now with the discretion to choose their own working hours. Unless the HSE fully commit to their own policies on family friendly flexible working (and not just for admin staff) this haemorrhaging will just keep happening.

Miike

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m not sure that the public is backing the nurses as much as they want us to believe.

Judging the from the support on the pickets today, I'd argue that you're wrong. People from local communities even joined the pickets to show support and solidarity. All that nurses are asking to be paid the same as other healthcare professionals who work less hours and have 20% of the caseload of a nurse. Also other allied healthcare professionals aren't required to do specialist post grads or MSc's to have any opportunity to move up or even laterally with their career. Nurses would have around 7ish years done in University to get the same rate of a pay as a 3 year degree OT graduate.

Everyone who's never worked a day on the ward will posit that conditions are fine, pay is fine, there isn't a recruitment or retention problem and that the average pay is 50 odd thousand a year. Ofcourse, that's those who are blindly ignorant to where the average of that pay goes - There are more managers for nurses than nurses on the wards at this stage. Nurses are redeployed daily because of staff shortages in units across the board in Mental Health, General, ID and Midwifery.

Graduate retention rates are sub 20% over 24 months post reg in some parts of the country.

iamwhoiam

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Because we pay the Nurses too much obviously

I think its a vicious circle , nurses are overworked and stressed and leave for Australia etc . The ones left behind are working on understaffed wards and get stressed and ill . Having seen Tallaght A and E a few times first hand it is actually astonishing that they have any staff at all working there . The conditions are horrendous and so incredibly stressful

I took early retirement from a very busy paeds hospital because of bad staffing levels and patients safety at risk with agency nurses filling gaps . Imagine a busy surgical ward with just one staff nurse and agency nurses who are not familiar with the level of care ? Early retirement with a huge drop in salary was my only option for my own health and well being
More money would only have helped if it recruited more staff and eased the huge burden of responsibility .

Tell me how

Miike wrote: »

Judging the from the support on the pickets today, I'd argue that you're wrong. People from local communities even joined the pickets to show support and solidarity. All that nurses are asking to be paid the same as other healthcare professionals who work less hours and have 20% of the caseload of a nurse.

Everyone who's never worked a day on the ward will posit that conditions are fine, pay is fine, there isn't a recruitment or retention problem and that the average pay is 50 odd thousand a year. Ofcourse, that's those who are blindly ignorant to where the average of that pay goes - There are more managers for nurses than nurses on the wards at this stage. Nurses are redeployed daily because of staff shortages in units across the board in Mental Health, General, ID and Midwifery.

Graduate retention rates are sub 20% over 24 months post reg in some parts of the country.

I would support them if they acknowledged this imbalance and were making suggestions on how correct it (reduce numbers in managerial roles) rather than looking for the 12% which will apply across the board to the same management staff as ward nurses.

Asking that this be paid while suggesting it is a problem is not going to make things better. It's painting over the cracks.

Miike

Tell me how wrote: »

I would support them if they acknowledged this imbalance and were making suggestions on how correct it (reduce numbers in managerial roles) rather than looking for the 12% which will apply across the board to the same management staff as ward nurses.

Asking that this be paid while suggesting it is a problem is not going to make things better. It's painting over the cracks.

I don't disagree however this still would't fill the gap between the other healthcare professionals.

Tell me how

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think its a vicious circle , nurses are overworked and stressed and leave for Australia etc . The ones left behind are working on understaffed wards and get stressed and ill . Having seen Tallaght A and E a few times first hand it is actually astonishing that they have any staff at all working there . The conditions are horrendous and so incredibly stressful

I took early retirement from a very busy paeds hospital because of bad staffing levels and patients safety at risk with agency nurses filling gaps . Imagine a busy surgical ward with just one staff nurse and agency nurses who are not familiar with the level of care ? Early retirement with a huge drop in salary was my only option for my own health and well being

How many are leaving because they are overworked and stressed, or how many are leaving because they are young, have a qualification which means that they can travel abroad for life experiences while earning?

I'm sure there are some of the former but I also expect that there are many of the latter.

iamwhoiam

Tell me how wrote: »

How many are leaving because they are overworked and stressed, or how many are leaving because they are young, have a qualification which means that they can travel abroad for life experiences while earning?

I'm sure there are some of the former but I also expect that there are many of the latter.

Yes you have a point of course . But also many nurses move to less stressful jobs as clinical specialists . OPD , Home Care , etc . Leaving too few senior staff nurses in the ward settings

Goldengirl

doolox wrote: »

Nurses direct health care and deal with medications etc. Unless there is a medical reason to do so they do not clean up patients in their care. They are more like junior management.

I am 10 years dealing with nursing home people on a daily basis in a non medical role and this is what I see. Nurses deal with paperwork and patient care in an indirect way. Health care assistants do the physical lifting carrying and cleaning and catering assistants feed the patients. There are separate staff for laundry and cleaning and separate staff for activities and dealing with payments and financial matters with relatives.

There is not the same level of intimacy with care of people that there used to be. Nurses now only deal with very sick people if they deal with any clients at all. Once they are on routine medical regime the bulk of the work and minding is done by health care assistants.

Not true.
In nursing homes there is probably 1/ 2 RGNs who are in charge , to do all the administration, medications and directing care so how in God's name could you expect them to do all the hands on care? .
In hospital, it is different. Nurses care for a group of patients, could be elderly or not, but usually sicker , entirely, with the help of a healthcare assistant if they are lucky.

Goldengirl

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Going to be controversial here. I work in the HSE as a pharmacist and I don't think nurses should be paid the same as me. On a pure financial level, I make savings multiple times of my salary, I switch regards to medicines management. I also make clinical decisions with regards to patients medications. I also have two masters which I had to do part time alongside work to get to my level. Nurses don't make the impact I do on a clinical level to be paid the same as me. I think a useful job development for nurses would be an advanced nurse practitioner role which possibly could enable to earn similar to me.

How much does a newly qualified basic new entrant pharmacist make? And one with one masters and more experience , say 10 years? You sound like a senior pharmacist, so you are not comparing like for like. And do you get an extra payment for your two masters? I know nurses who have two masters, make clinical decisions every day and save resources, and don't get paid that much, but it would be interesting to see how much more you get...

1641

political analyst wrote: »

As I've asked in another thread here a few days ago, is there really no alternative to a "one size fits all" public-sector pay agreement?

What is good enough for a civil servant isn't necessarily good enough for a nurse because of the nature of the work.

If junior civil servants were asked if emergency services workers' pay should be considered a special case, they'd probably say Yes and then they could tell the leadership of their union that they don't want to make a pay claim to compete.

Good point about "one side fits all". But this applies within nursing as well. Not all nurses are working in highly pressured/highly skilled environments. Plenty are not. So why an accross the board 12% demand? Maybe they should tell the leadership of their nursing union that any money for an increase should go towards those in the really demanding positions?



But as much chance of that as there is of "junior civil servants" (or any others) saying that the nursing case is special and they won't pile in with similar claims.

Huntergonzo

Nurses do, do a great job and possibly do deserve a pay rise, but unfortunately you can't always get what you want/deserve. I don't think the exchequer can afford it at present and therefore it shouldn't be given, but I do expect some sort of half baked compromise after the stand off.

What I really enjoy about these campaigns though is the amount of opposition politicians and local mouths that jump on the 'stand with the nurses' bandwagon. Why not stand with the nurses when you're soon to be standing for election, it's gas.

Flyingsnowball

Goldengirl wrote: »

How much does a newly qualified basic new entrant pharmacist make? And one with one masters and more experience , say 10 years? You sound like a senior pharmacist, so you are not comparing like for like. And fo you get an extra payment for your two masters? I know nurses who have teo masters, make clinical decisions every day and save resources, and don't get paid that much, but it would be interesting to see how much more you get...

Hi just joining in the discussion while I hope somebody answers my original thread here.
It’s funny that it’s actually about me going back to college. A big worry for me about going back and getting a degree is that I will be just too tired after a day on the building site earning less than a nurse even though I’m qualified and have 15 years experience at my trade.

How did this nurse find the time to get two masters degrees whilst working so hard and for so little.

I’m hoping to get some sort of grant to afford a degree.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

I know nurses who have two masters, make clinical decisions every day and save resources, and don't get paid that much, but it would be interesting to see how much more you get...

So if the average pay for a nurse in the HSE (after allowances, premium pay and overtime) is €57000, who is getting the higher salaries to bring the average up to this level?

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

How many are leaving because they are overworked and stressed, or how many are leaving because they are young, have a qualification which means that they can travel abroad for life experiences while earning?

I'm sure there are some of the former but I also expect that there are many of the latter.

What does it matter though? Either way nurses the Irish government spent thousands training are leaving the country for better wages, better conditions and better experiences. Most will probably come back, but that's 5 or so years that the nurses you've trained are off elsewhere.

That 70% of grads consider moving abroad figure is astounding. Is there any hospital in the country that's adequately staffed?

Is there many other professions where job vacancies across the board are left unfilled for months and years?

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

What does it matter though? Either way nurses the Irish government spent thousands training are leaving the country for better wages, better conditions and better experiences. Most will probably come back, but that's 5 or so years that the nurses you've trained are off elsewhere.

That 70% of grads consider moving abroad figure is astounding. Is there any hospital in the country that's adequately staffed?

Is there many other professions where job vacancies across the board are left unfilled for months and years?

I would have thought it is fairly obvious why it matters.
If they are leaving for reasons other than money then there is no point paying them more money hoping they will stay.

Miike

1641 wrote: »

So if the average pay for a nurse in the HSE (after allowances, premium pay and overtime) is €57000, who is getting the higher salaries to bring the average up to this level?

All of those are without premia, overtime etc. That's a like for like comparison.

Goldengirl

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes it does mean that if they are successful then all nurses in management roles will also get the payrise.

That is why the figure of 57k is relevant.

If it was just at an active on ward level, I would be in favour of their request, but it isn't.

No nurse gets paid this money , as I have told you repeatedly , unless she is top of the scale working as a senior nurse running everything and with a lot of headache and responsibility, and working weekends and nights, which she should be getting paid for anyway. 57 k is the salary of a nurse manager.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

I would have thought it is fairly obvious why it matters.
If they are leaving for reasons other than money then there is no point paying them more money hoping they will stay.

Nurses leaving straight after college is only one symptom of huge recruitment problems.
I don't think chronic understaffing across all levels in hospitals is purely nurses going off on a jolly for a few years.

Always Tired

speedboatchase wrote: »

Give her lots of money! She is now suddenly better at her job and deserves more money!

if you weren't so ignorant on this issue you would know it's pay restoration they seek, and it's less than what the FG government gave themselves since coming into office

she's been a nurse for almost 10 years and is nowhere near this farcical 57 k average, and is in a Dublin hospital

Tell me how

Goldengirl wrote: »

No nurse gets paid this money , as I have told you repeatedly , unless she is top of the scale working as a senior nurse running everything and with a lot of headache and responsibility, and working weekends and nights, which she should be getting paid for anyway. 57 k is the salary of a nurse manager.

Shaking my head here.

That is the reported average earnings.
The INMO have not challenged this average.
The strike is for a 12% increase across all grades.
The nurses should highlight/acknowledge the disparity in numbers receiving this which has such an impact in driving up the average and suggest ways to reduce the numbers in such roles.
Then I will support the claim for a ward nurse increase.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

Then I will support the claim for a ward nurse increase.

It makes zero difference whether you do or don't support the nurses.

They'll get their wage hike.

Tell me how

Always Tired wrote: »

if you weren't so ignorant on this issue you would know it's pay restoration they seek, and it's less than what the FG government gave themselves since coming into office

she's been a nurse for almost 10 years and is nowhere near this farcical 57 k average, and is in a Dublin hospital

Would that be a Pay restoration to that of the time immediately prior to the crash in 2008 or to that of the time before benchmarking increases awarded in 2002?

1641

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Is there many other professions where job vacancies across the board are left unfilled for months and years?

Loads of professions in the HSE - look at Mental Health Teams or Early intervention teams, for instance. But the solution is not throwing more money at the bottomless pit of the HSE.



We are already at, or near, the top of the scale for health service spending in Europe. There should be no pay increase for anyone until the whole system is rationalised and reformed. But are the Unions up for this? - Not a chance. They are all out for a competitive advantage for their own - and preserving or expanding jobs where they are, even if this is not the optimal for health delivery.


Health service unions have about as much committment to health as burglars have to de-cluttering.

Goldengirl

Graces7 wrote: »

magentis wrote: »

Love these threads.I can just picture some of the posters here left in a situation where they have to clean up someone that has defecated themselves. "

Mothers do this all the time without pay and carers do it all the time with little financial reward. Time was nursing was about more than higher pay.

Bad mother and carer who wouldn't do this, but is your point that nursing used to be a "vocation" , and they should kneel down and thank God for the chance to show they care, and not be looking for more money, or better patient / nursing ratios ?
By the way, carers aren't paid enough either. People would be queuing on the double in A&E if it weren't for them.

runawaybishop

Always Tired wrote: »

if you weren't so ignorant on this issue you would know it's pay restoration they seek, and it's less than what the FG government gave themselves since coming into office

she's been a nurse for almost 10 years and is nowhere near this farcical 57 k average, and is in a Dublin hospital

But they are getting pay restoration, the same as every other public servant? They want a pay rise, not just restoration.

Goldengirl

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

And Nurses dont do it at all, Health Care Assistants do-the real underpaid unsung heroes of the Hospitals!

Not true , about nurses , that is. No problem with health care assistants, but where I work they can't do anything eith a patient unless a nurse was with them .

RinusLaptop76

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They should let them know the pay rates before they sign up to stop them becoming nurses and then not agreeing with the pay..........

And then Ireland ends up with no nurses/healthcare? Good luck Ireland with that.

Martina1991

EdgeCase wrote:

The conditions and staffing levels seem to be more of a problem than anything else from what I've seen and heard of hospitals.

Talking to a friend of mine today, she said she doesnt mind the pay because she gets paid more for doing nights and weekends and has more time off.

Its the understaffing thats the problem. But you kind of need to increase pay to entice people to stay rather than emmigrate.

Miike wrote:

All that nurses are asking to be paid the same as other healthcare professionals who work less hours and have 20% of the caseload of a nurse. Also other allied healthcare professionals aren't required to do specialist post grads or MSc's to have any opportunity to move up or even laterally with their career. Nurses would have around 7ish years done in University to get the same rate of a pay as a 3 year degree OT graduate.

Not true. I need to have my masters to gain promotion even though there is little opportunity to do so. I had to pay for it myself, unlike some further nursing qualifications that are paid for.

Capt'n Midnight

Once upon a time there was a standoff between the civil service and the govt.

But the govt refused to back down on pay grades.


But everyone got promoted a grade.

Goldengirl

gctest50 wrote: »

Sounds like they were looking for a few days off

They gave the patient the wrong drink ? there's a lot missing out of that story

We've all seen what they're like :

Yawn...didn't we see that post a week ago? Anything constructive to add?

TheRiverman

Goldengirl wrote: »

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Not true , about nurses , that is. No problem with health care assistants, but where I work they can't do anything eith a patient unless a nurse was with them .

And if the Health Care Assistant does something wrong the nurse is to blame.Crazy.

Goldengirl

road_high wrote: »

Country can’t afford this- simple as. Couldn’t be worse timing really with such uncertainty in the economy right now

Country can't afford the salaries the tds are paying themselves.
Country can't afford the cost of agency nurses every week.
Country can't afford the building cost of the new children's hospital.
Country can't afford patients dying of misread cervical smear tests.

But this country does all of the above...
Country can't afford to pay nurses more so that they don't have understaffed wards, closed beds , cancelled operating theatre lists and massive waiting lists ..all due to the fact that nurses have copped on to the abuse of their skills and goodwill and are looking to other countries who value them.

decky1

Spent a year in James up till then never had to give a thought to nurses or their pay and conditions, i think the deserve to have their pay [whatever it is ] doubled starting tomorrow, those girls there in Burketts wards + the day ward they never stop working don't know where they get their energy or commitment, Thanks everyone there you saved my life, I could never repay them ,hope they get what they want [and it still would'nt be enough.

Miike

Martina1991 wrote: »

Talking to a friend of mine today, she said she doesnt mind the pay because she gets paid more for doing nights and weekends and has more time off.

Its the understaffing thats the problem. But you kind of need to increase pay to entice people to stay rather than emmigrate.

Not true. I need to have my masters to gain promotion even though there is little opportunity to do so. I had to pay for it myself, unlike some further nursing qualifications that are paid for.

What field?

Goldengirl

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Why would you think nurses are not comparable to physios ? Physiotherapist do fantastic work and are well educated and trained . A nurse would not be trained or able to do physio

Nurses are also well educated and trained and do work that physios are not trained to do . Nurses give IV,s .Give drugs , care for ventilated patients . Care for high dependent new born and prem babies with multiple needs and drips and lines .
I see the two jobs as comparable actually and one complimenting the other . I find it odd you would compare a nurse to an accounts assistant and a physio to the financial controller ? Maybe you have never experienced a paediatric intensive care and the amount of knowledge and skill a nurse needs to keep those patients alive .

And the nurse looking after that baby or child will have at least two qualifications ,and paeds or neonatal intensive care course to boot, but hey they're only nurses, right?!

Flyingsnowball

Goldengirl wrote: »

And the nurse looking after that baby or child will have at least two qualifications ,and paeds or neonatal intensive care course to boot, but hey they're only nurses, right?!

Where did she get the time or money to get these degrees if she is so overworked and underpaid?

Miike

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Where did she get the time or money to get these degrees if she is so overworked and underpaid?

Jesus tonight. Where's the rain that fell last winter? You're really clutching at straws here. Are you suggesting just because nurses aren't bed bound outside of their shift that they're not worked hard enough?

Goldengirl

road_high wrote: »

There’s simply no comparison. Nursing is more of a generic qualification with some specialism. They don’t diagnose or indeed select treatments- if they did we wouldn’t need doctors.

You know nothing about it and you are trying to make points without the knowledge to back it up.
Nurses don't do that . Everything they do has to be backed up by research and scientifically proven facts. That is why it is a BSc course , and it is very specific.

Flyingsnowball

Miike wrote: »

Jesus tonight. Where's the rain that fell last winter? You're really clutching at straws here. Are you suggesting just because nurses aren't bed bound outside of their shift that they're not worked hard enough?

The media tells me they are. Why didn’t they become doctors if they can get two degrees?

Thephantomsmask

Miike wrote: »

All of those are without premia, overtime etc. That's a like for like comparison.

ETA my wrong info, thank you for the correction Miike, I was using an older copy of the pay scale.

Miike

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

The media tells me they are. Why didn’t they become doctors if they can get two degrees?

In your alternate universe do you think that all nurses strive to be doctors? or are just not clever enough to do medicine?

Flyingsnowball

Miike wrote: »

In your alternate universe do you think that all nurses strive to be doctors? or are just not clever enough to do medicine?

They would be paid better. If I got two degrees in fine art and pottery making you would ask why I didn’t get better degrees if I was complaining about my pay and conditions.

Miike

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Starting salary for a basic grade respiratory physiologist (technician has not been a job title for many years) is €33,719 since 2013, your graphic is incorrect.

€35,417 Starting.



Carry on.

RinusLaptop76

DS86DS wrote: »

Nurses in this country are far to quick to complain. They have a good wage as well as plenty of public sector benefits as well as a cushy retirement plan in line with other public sector professions.

If they are not happy with their calling in life, then there are others to fill the roll. And a nurses first priority should be in helping the sick, not holding the country to randsome.

Nurses have little social welfare benefits, taxed to the maximum, they do help the sick, 1 nurse for 8 patients, many bedridden, need full care , often confused patients that are abusive , but that's part of the job, they are nurses and love their work. What about the dumping of elderly starting December? What about elderly being sent to the hospital because family goes on holiday? Family wants the pension so elderly can't go to a nursing home, people in a hospital for over a year? Because of family being greedy?

Maybe look into a shift in a ward, maybe you'll see how heavy it is on your nurses, and as for others filling the role? Who? Newly graduates nurses move out, so no more nurses? Way to goðŸ‘

Martina1991

Miike wrote:

What field?

Medical Science.

James Brown

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

They would be paid better. If I got two degrees in fine art and pottery making you would ask why I didn’t get better degrees if I was complaining about my pay and conditions.

Come off it. They chose to be Nurses for various reasons. Expecting a wage they can live off is a separate issue or we'd all be doing the same wonder job we all like for great money, what ever that might be.

Tell me how

Here is an interesting article about nursing levels from 2004

Motivations on choosing to do Nursing Article

Although the demand for training has increased, 70 per cent of nurses leave Ireland within two years of qualifying, writes Fiona Tyrrell.

A degree in nursing is seen as a "passport to travel" by students, according to Irish Nurses' Organisation (INO) general secretary Liam Doran. He says the increased demand for nursing places has been prompted in part by the higher profile afforded to the profession by the new nursing degree courses and inclusion in the CAO system.

The demand for the new courses, established in 2002, continues to rise, and the points required (between 360 and 400) are greater than that for an arts degree.

More nurses are being trained in Ireland than ever before, with a 90 per cent increase in the number of trainees in the past five years. Last September, 1,740 started their nursing degree, compared with 900 in 1998.

That would indicate, in the eyes of the then INMO secretary, that many nursing applicants specifically choose nursing because it would facilitate them getting to travel.

Nurses holding up banners abroad saying "give us a reason to come home" should have a think about the reason they selected nursing when filling out their CAO.

grindle

Martina1991 wrote: »

Its the understaffing thats the problem. But you kind of need to increase pay to entice people to stay rather than emmigrate.

To an extent. If you have more staff on for the crossover hours which reduces overtime costs the reduced workload could result in happier workers willing to take slightly less pay for an easier job.

Thephantomsmask

Miike wrote: »

€35,417 Starting.



Carry on.

Apologies, I had an older copy of the pay scales. Thank you for clarifying.