Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

bri007

OT is a 4 year degree in Ireland

Miike wrote: »

Judging the from the support on the pickets today, I'd argue that you're wrong. People from local communities even joined the pickets to show support and solidarity. All that nurses are asking to be paid the same as other healthcare professionals who work less hours and have 20% of the caseload of a nurse. Also other allied healthcare professionals aren't required to do specialist post grads or MSc's to have any opportunity to move up or even laterally with their career. Nurses would have around 7ish years done in University to get the same rate of a pay as a 3 year degree OT graduate.

Everyone who's never worked a day on the ward will posit that conditions are fine, pay is fine, there isn't a recruitment or retention problem and that the average pay is 50 odd thousand a year. Ofcourse, that's those who are blindly ignorant to where the average of that pay goes - There are more managers for nurses than nurses on the wards at this stage. Nurses are redeployed daily because of staff shortages in units across the board in Mental Health, General, ID and Midwifery.

Graduate retention rates are sub 20% over 24 months post reg in some parts of the country.

Goldengirl

Tell me how wrote: »

Reading this kind of makes me cringe.
A lollipop person keeps school children alive, or a life guard at a swimming pool, what should we pay them?

Yes, ICU is keeping me alive, and the nurse is monitoring equipment, but are they diagnosing? Are they selecting treatments? Are they doing the surgery? Are they prescribing critical medications?

They are an essential role but they do not have ownership on treatment decisions or diagnosis.

I'll repeat a point I made earlier just to clarify, I think nurses on the ward should be on more than they currently are after 5 years of service. But, the average money is 57k/year and this strike is to try to get 12% pay rises for all nurses. If that average is unrepresentative then it indicates a badly skewed structure where we have more nurses in management roles than we should have but the money is still in the pot for nurses and if they get this rise, it will be awarded to all nurses and thus the average will rise to nearly 64k. They have permanent positions, short weeks (but yes long days) and better pension benefits than those in the private sector for what they have to contribute.

We cannot afford this, it is ignoring the problems elsewhere in the system, it devalues an agreed pay deal, it will trigger additional claims elsewhere.

Again you haven't a clue. Nurses make treatment decisions every day and the more senior they are the more they make. Doctors prescribe medicine and medical treatment, but no consultant worth his salt would interfere with a nurse training a junior doctor in the art of approaching a difficult patient, or if a senior nurse questions whether certain patients would be able for a type of treatment. Nurses send physio and occupational therapy referrals . That nurse in ICU has to ensure you are ok by reading and interpreting more than just what is on a monitor, and when a doctor should be called, even if the vital signs don't flag it. There is more to nursing than following an order or prescription, and you show either ignorance of this or are just disingenuously arguing for argument sake.
And for the last time , NURSES DO NOT EARN 57K ON AVERAGE. That is a LIE and I question who you are that you keep ignoring the fact that numerous posters on here have told and shown you that this is BS !
You tell other people to read your posts , try reading what other people post .

Flyingsnowball

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Come off it. They chose to be Nurses for various reasons. Expecting a wage they can live off is a separate issue or we'd all be doing the same wonder job we all like for great money, what ever that might be.

But I’m earning less this year than I did last year because my taxes have gone up. My taxes pay nurses wages. They are getting a pay rise. They earn more than me and I can garantee you I go home more tired than 90 per cent of them each day.
If all the people in my trade headed off to aus there would be outbreaks of all sorts of diseases.

Nobody cares about us. Bus drivers will be next up. Then gaurds etc etc. Same every year.

Don’t worry they can just raise my taxes.

Tell me how

Goldengirl wrote: »

Again you haven't a clue. Nurses make treatment decisions every day and the more senior they are the more they make. Doctors prescribe medicine and medical treatment, but no consultant worth his salt would interfere with a nurse training a junior doctor in the art of approaching a difficult patient, or if a senior nurse questions whether certain patients would be able for a type of treatment. Nurses send physio and occupational therapy referrals . That nurse in ICU has to ensure you are ok by reading and interpreting more than just what is on a monitor, and when a doctor should be called, even if the vital signs don't flag it. There is more to nursing than following an order or prescription, and you show either ignorance of this or are just disingenuously arguing for argument sake.
And for the last time , NURSES DO NOT EARN 57K ON AVERAGE. That is a LIE and I question who you are that you keep ignoring the fact that numerous posters on here have told and shown you that this is BS !
You tell other people to read your posts , try reading what other people post .

I'm reading what people post. And responding where I disagree with it.
Maybe you should put the nurses do not earn 57k on average in bold as well as caps next time. It might start to seem believable then even if it is not discounted by the INMO.

Also, please don't question who I am to contribute here unless you are happy to admit that you are a nurse looking through the narrow focus of your personal experience but wilfully choosing to ignore the bigger picture.

In all my statements about the 57K average, no one has provided evidence that it is false beyond saying "Well I don't earn that" or "My GF doesn't earn that". I know individuals don't. I know collectively it is the average.

Twenty Grand

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

But I’m earning less this year than I did last year because my taxes have gone up. My taxes pay nurses wages.

Well nurses pay taxes too, so technically they pay their own wages.

They are getting a pay rise. They earn more than me and I can garantee you I go home more tired than 90 per cent of them each day.

I didn't realise peoples wages were based on how tired they were at the end of the day.

If all the people in my trade headed off to aus there would be outbreaks of all sorts of diseases.

Herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea?

Miike

A rake of misinformation in this thread. It's shocking.

I just want to reiterate two points:

Irish Nurses are some of the most qualified and sought after nurses in the world. Nursing still has this weird perception in the public as a nurse trots around after doctors executing their wishes and wiping arses inbetween. They're honors science degree graduates.

Nurses are simply asking to be paid at a similar level to the other healthcare staff and AHP's.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

In all my statements about the 57K average, no one has provided evidence that it is false beyond saying "Well I don't earn that" or "My GF doesn't earn that". I know individuals don't. I know collectively it is the average.

I posted this yesterday in response to you. You conveniently ignored it:
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/

In Ireland, nurses earn about the average wage which the Central Statistics Office last year put at €39,000.

Flyingsnowball

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Well nurses pay taxes too, so technically they pay their own wages.


I didn't realise peoples wages were based on how tired they were at the end of the day.


Herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea?

Smart Alec childish slagging answers. It shows the maturity.

Twenty Grand

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Smart Alec childish slagging answers. It shows the maturity.

I've posted many well thought out arguments, with links backing them up, but this is still After Hours and I can say whatever I want;)

Beside, your post was ridiculous, so it deserved to be ridiculed.

Flyingsnowball

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I've posted many well thought out arguments, with links backing them up, but this is still After Hours and I can say whatever I want;)

So can a solicitor. They are smart enough to know when to open their mouth though.

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

Ah - the gender card - so no dissenting opinions now. By the way, what is the male/female ratio in Physio, OT and Speech and Language Therapy ?

Well you might say this! All this condescending talk of caring ,empathetic nurses , obeying every order from above, sounds like someone's fantasy ?
I totally agree with IamwhoIam, and Thomasdylan , no idea of what other things a nurse, male or female, actually does everyday in the real world. Nor do you want to know ,do you? So why don't we see the same cxxp in threads discussing gardaí or teachers , who have been on strike for more pay way more than nurses?

billie1b

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

But I’m earning less this year than I did last year because my taxes have gone up. My taxes pay nurses wages. They are getting a pay rise. They earn more than me and I can garantee you I go home more tired than 90 per cent of them each day.
If all the people in my trade headed off to aus there would be outbreaks of all sorts of diseases.

Nobody cares about us. Bus drivers will be next up. Then gaurds etc etc. Same every year.

Don’t worry they can just raise my taxes.

Emm hello, you do know nurses also pay taxes on their wages yeah....

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I posted this yesterday in response to you. You conveniently ignored it:
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/

I truly didn't see it yesterday. But, two things I will say.

A, In is not surprising that the journal is publishing an article countering the governments position.

B What do you think of the following?

From a deparmental review

“Data on nursing remuneration (excluding midwives) compiled by the OECD from 2007 to 2016 shows the average pay of a nurse including allowances and premia payments. This is presented in Figure 9 below which situates Ireland in an internationally comparable context.”

or

In a statement to TheJournal.ie, it added: “While other countries provide data on a different basis, the 2017 figure of US$ PPP 63,464 remains an accurate estimate of what an average nurse earns in Ireland. While international comparisons are difficult, due to differences in how the figures are compiled, the OECD is the best source of data and the actual salary figures reported by the OECD do not suggest that nurses are low paid.”

omega man

USC or income tax increase and welfare cut to fund pay rise and see support levels vanish. Won’t happen but would be interesting to see the reactions...

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

I truly didn't see it yesterday. But, two things I will say.

A, In is not surprising that the journal is publishing an article countering the governments position.

B What do you think of the following?

A: I've always found TheJournal's fact check articles very good. Most of their other stuff is questionable. If you have an issue with their methods you should get onto them.

B: If you read to the end you would have seen:

And it is important to point out that the OECD data on nurses’ remuneration, which is frequently used as an indication of where Irish nurses fall on the scale, is not (by the OECD’s own admission) a reliable source.

Flyingsnowball

billie1b wrote: »

Emm hello, you do know nurses also pay taxes on their wages yeah....

Yeah?people on the dole pay vat so basically we can keep raising dole because they pay it themselves.

These degrees, do they have tests at the end of them?

Miike

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Yeah?people on the dole pay vat so basically we can keep raising dole because they pay it themselves.

These degrees, do they have tests at the end of them?

No, they put a hat on their head at the end of the 4.5 years and through the power of pure free will, it spontaneously erupts in speech to proclaim either "pass" or "fail".

Twenty Grand

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Yeah?people on the dole pay vat so basically we can keep raising dole because they pay it themselves.

These degrees, do they have tests at the end of them?

Yes, like all degrees. And work placement throughout.

And additional qualifications are needed when moving from one dept. to another, such as paediatrics, ITU etc, which are paid for by the hospital, but are essential if a nurse wants to progress.

Goldengirl

theguzman wrote: »

What about the literal billions dumped into the dark hole of adminsistation, crony managers and jobs for life. The HSE could function perfectly fine with at least 50,000 to 75,000 job cuts and just increase front line staff but trim out the fat. This will of course never happen which is why I favour privatisation.

Hi Denis!

hatrickpatrick

Again, all these comparisons to other countries are totally pointless without comparing the cost of living in the same graph. How much do people pay in rent in those countries? How much are utilities? How much is fuel? How much is food? How much is charged by restaurants, bars, cinemas etc? How much does childcare cost? How much does healthcare cost? How much does public transport cost? How much does insurance costs? How heavily are those earnings taxed?

Talking about comparative incomes without simultaneously comparing the cost of living is utterly meaningless and moronic. Ireland in general and Dublin in particular is exorbitantly overpriced to live in, and this has knock on effects on what can be considered a good living wage.

1641

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I posted this yesterday in response to you. You conveniently ignored it:
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/

I read the article. It quoted a number of sources for the average pay of nurses in Ireland which turned out to give different figures. You only quoted one of them in your post, ie, €39000. There are other contradictory ones.



Also, the article posed an opening question :
Are Irish nurses among the highest paid in the world?

And ended with the conclusion:


UNPROVEN As per our verdict guide, this means: “The evidence available is insufficient to support or refute the claim, but it is logically possible.”

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

A: I've always found TheJournal's fact check articles very good. Most of their other stuff is questionable. If you have an issue with their methods you should get onto them.

B: If you read to the end you would have seen:

So are you saying that the journal produced a whole article and then said that the information they have used is unreliable?

And you think that they are a trustworthy publication? So be it, that's your opinion.

I also find it interesting that you agree that most of their stuff is questionable but you believe their fact checking articles which support your view.

1641

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Well nurses pay taxes too, so technically they pay their own wages.

Perhaps there is a solution in this. Give the nurses the rise - and raise their taxes to collect the amount required to pay for it.

Flyingsnowball

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Yes, like all degrees. And work placement throughout.

And additional qualifications are needed when moving from one dept. to another, such as paediatrics, ITU etc, which are paid for by the hospital, but are essential if a nurse wants to progress.

So say I head into the office tomorrow. Tell the boss I want to upskill to be a mechanical engineer and run the site. He agrees and thinks it’s a great idea. I tell him he is to pay it. He agrees and tells me I can do it on his time.
I pass my exams and he puts me in the office with the big boys and they teach me everything they know. Then I tell him the pay scale for mechanical engineer isn’t enough and civil engineers get more.

I feck off to Australia and send social media pictures of me in Brisbane complaint he won’t pay me enough to come home.

This is the kind of thing that could only happen in the private sector. All while we have housing crisis and trolley crisis and not one feck given. Sure if we don’t take it the bus drivers will.

Sam Quentin

backspin. wrote: »

I think they are paid reasonably well as it is. There is a pay agreement in place at the moment anyway.

I would agree,. tho I must say, most interviewees today on radio and TV seemed to be unhappy with workload and lack of nurses.
Not much mention of money/pay rises etc.,the nurses just seem unable to keep up with the heavy workload.

Tell me how

Sam Quentin wrote: »

I would agree,. tho I must say, most interviewees today on radio and TV seemed to be unhappy with workload and lack of nurses.
Not much mention of money/pay rises etc.,the nurses just seem unable to keep up with the heavy workload.

Agree. There is a problem there. But paying more while leaving structures and other practices the same is like putting a bigger bucket under a leaking roof rather than fixing the leak.

Goldengirl

brendanwalsh wrote: »

They'll get what they want due to sheer numbers and if they cripple the system for long enough . The general public don't really hate nurses.
The government should be more concerned about vacant consultant posts and junior doctors emigrating all the time and consultants who are not on specialist registrar.

When the nurses get a rise, watch ever other ****er in the public sector go begging for one.

We will end up in 2008 again if Leo doesn't stand firm.

Nurses do a tough job, if they don't like the salary on offer they can and should go elsewhere. It's just business. If I didn't like the wages on offer from working in tesco, I wouldn't work in tesco. Why pay through the nose, plenty of foreign nurses willing to come here and are delighted with the salary.

No. Nurses have not had a strike since 1998. Others in the public sector have been striking every second year over pay, conditions, having to deal with technology, new practices.
Nurses do vote with their feet, that's the point here!
And nurses from abroad come and go very quickly too when they see what it's like working in Irish hospitals.

Twenty Grand

1641 wrote: »

I read the article. It quoted a number of sources for the average pay of nurses in Ireland which turned out to give different figures. You only quoted one of them in your post, ie, €39000. There are other contradictory ones.

I'm well aware there are a few mentioned, but some posters are using the highest number which is from an unreliable source, I'm using the one from the CSO.

Tell me how wrote: »

So are you saying that the journal produced a whole article and then said that the information they have used is unreliable?
And you think that they are a trustworthy publication? So be it, that's your opinion.
I also find it interesting that you agree that most of their stuff is questionable but you believe their fact checking articles which support your view.

Jesus Christ, talk about nitpicky.
TheJournal produce many fact check articles, and not all have definitive answers. There's plenty of sources in the article. Some are more reliable than others.
TheJournal rightly stated that that source was unreliable. It was the source you used in your post. I pointed out that it was unreliable.

Supports my view, supports the view of nurses posting payslips here and all over social media, supports the view of many people striking today.

The only view it doesn't support is yours, which is based solely on the fact that an INMO spokesperson didn't refute some passing comment on some radio show weeks ago.

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

So say I head into the office tomorrow. Tell the boss I want to upskill to be a mechanical engineer and run the site. He agrees and thinks it’s a great idea. I tell him he is to pay it. He agrees and tells me I can do it on his time.

My actual head hurts reading that sh*te. What's worse is the topic of nurses education was covered on this thread in depth already, but of course you're too smart to need to get up to speed.

Nurses education is paid for by the HSE, on the provision that they pass the exams and stay with the HSE for a number of years. It's the same in my employer and nearly all other employers who pay for additional training.

Jesus wept.

Goldengirl

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As an aside, the HSE is in ****ing disarray. So many patients die that wouldn't die in an NHS hospital. Drug companies offer trips (Barbados, wherever) disguised as conferences to consultants and pharmacists. There is no control of medication budgets in any Irish hospital. There isn't even a national sepsis policy for God sake.

There is, EWS is designed to pick up sepsis among other complications. It is in every public hospital in Ireland. Do you not work in Ireland?

Goldengirl

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If they’ve funded their own education, then they are free to go wherever they want. However, if their qualifications were state funded via a grant, then they should be obliged to work in the NHS for a minimum of 3 years.

The 13 hour day seriously needs looking at. It’s ridiculous to expect anyone to work such hours in such a vital job.

13 hour shifts were brought in in the 90s as a way to staff wards with less nurses. And things have only gone downhill since.

backspin.

Goldengirl wrote: »

No. Nurses have not had a strike since 1998.

Did they not strike in 2007 or 2008 over hours. They wanted their hours cut from 39 to 37 or something like that.

Goldengirl

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Doctors are the devil in the eye of Joe public, all that money and 'private rooms' ffs

A specialist registrar is not a consultant and doesn't do private work.

Nurses support their medical colleagues in getting their hours down to a safe level, and having proper study time and holidays. You have no idea, and by the way I think average " Joe Public " is a lot more discerning and have sympathy and respect for the good work most doctors do.

Goldengirl

Miike wrote: »

I don't disagree however this still would't fill the gap between the other healthcare professionals.

Yes, and also why would anyone study and take on the stress and responsibility of senior management roles in busy hospitals, if they could get the same pay staying as a staff nurse? Of course it has to apply across the board, it's a nonsense to say otherwise .

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

So if the average pay for a nurse in the HSE (after allowances, premium pay and overtime) is €57000, who is getting the higher salaries to bring the average up to this level?

Why don't you read the posts in the thread? That has been answered numerous times. And it isn't an average wage, that would be a senior staff nurse after 20 years, working weekends and overtime , and at that a stretch.

Yer Da sells Avon

I hope they get their pay rise. And I also hope that their detractors get some first-hand experience of the amazing work they do.

1641

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I'm well aware there are a few mentioned, but some posters are using the highest number which is from an unreliable source, I'm using the one from the CSO.


Jesus Christ, talk about nitpicky.
TheJournal produce many fact check articles, and not all have definitive answers. There's plenty of sources in the article. Some are more reliable than others.
TheJournal rightly stated that that source was unreliable. It was the source you used in your post. I pointed out that it was unreliable.

Supports my view, supports the view of nurses posting payslips here and all over social media, supports the view of many people striking today.

Jesus wept.

Read the conclusion of the article - the only view it supports is that "“The evidence available is insufficient to support or refute the claim (that Irish nurses are among the best paid in the world), but it is logically possible.”


Then read the article more closely. It does not quote the CSO as saying that a nurse's average salary is €39000 (correctly, because they didn't say it). It quotes an OECD document (discredited source still ?) as saying that in Ireland nurses earn about the average wage. The article then adds that the average wage in Ireland is about €39000 according to the CSO.


Anyway, average earnings is meaningless in this context. Many nurses work all sorts of part-time and job-sharing hours , so average wage has little relationship to full time equivalent earnings.

Twenty Grand

1641 wrote: »

Read the conclusion of the article - the only view it supports is that "“The evidence available is insufficient to support or refute the claim (that Irish nurses are among the best paid in the world), but it is logically possible.”


Then read the article more closely. It does not quote the CSO as saying that a nurse's average salary is €39000 (correctly, because they didn't say it). It quotes an OECD document (discredited source still ?) as saying that in Ireland nurses earn about the average wage. The article then adds that the average wage in Ireland is about €39000 according to the CSO.


Anyway, average earnings is meaningless in this context. Many nurses work all sorts of part-time and job-sharing hours , so average wage has little relationship to full time equivalent earnings.

I honestly don't care about the article.
I'm well behind nurses no matter what they get paid, because they're so understaffed.

I only linked it to refute someone elses claim they had never seen any evidence that nurses didn't get 57k average.

Goldengirl

Tell me how wrote: »

Shaking my head here.

That is the reported average earnings.
The INMO have not challenged this average.
The strike is for a 12% increase across all grades.
The nurses should highlight/acknowledge the disparity in numbers receiving this which has such an impact in driving up the average and suggest ways to reduce the numbers in such roles.
Then I will support the claim for a ward nurse increase.

We have been highlighting this and have been reiterating it on this thread for the last week or more. You insist on accepting the FG spin , and repeating it over and over.( I wonder why?) . Look at Mike's post showing payscales.. I don't care what you support just don't want to let you spread fake sxxt unopposed!.

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I honestly don't care about the article.
I'm well behind nurses no matter what they get paid, because they're so understaffed.

I only linked it to refute someone elses claim they had never seen any evidence that nurses didn't get 57k average.

Yeah, you refuted a claim by showing an article in which a source stated the average earnings are 57K.

Goldengirl

Miike wrote: »

All of those are without premia, overtime etc. That's a like for like comparison.

Tellmehow

rob316

Pay isn't the problem it's the level of work and poor working conditions. The whole health service is just not fit for purpose.

Tell me how

Goldengirl wrote: »

Tellmehow

Once more, I'll say it, that does not refute the average.

I have said I think nurses on wards with 5 years experience should be on more. My problem is that nurses are ignoring the fact that it is nurses in managerial roles who are using up a huge amount of money allocated for paying nurses and therefore those on the ward are not paid enough.

I have stated, repeatedly, that if the nurses were striking to correct this imbalance I would support their claim. They are not, so I do not.

Tell me how

rob316 wrote: »

Pay isn't the problem it's the level of work and poor working conditions. The whole health service is just not fit for purpose.

I agree. That's why I wish they were striking demanding change in this area but they are not.

Goldengirl

Tell me how wrote: »

Would that be a Pay restoration to that of the time immediately prior to the crash in 2008 or to that of the time before benchmarking increases awarded in 2002?

Neither, pay restoration from before FEMPI.

jay0109

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I honestly don't care about the article.
I'm well behind nurses no matter what they get paid, because they're so understaffed.

Well, that type of economics will leave the country in a good place :rolleyes:

rob316

Tell me how wrote: »

I agree. That's why I wish they were striking demanding change in this area but they are not.

They'll give them the money but it'll fix nothing nurses will be just getting paid more to compensate for poor conditions.

Goldengirl

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Where did she get the time or money to get these degrees if she is so overworked and underpaid?

Weekends off, and holidays. Bank loan .

Goldengirl

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

The media tells me they are. Why didn’t they become doctors if they can get two degrees?

Some do pHD s and are doctors...of nursing. I would imagine the high entry points for medicine would deter a lot of people from doing it. And not everyone who is well educated wants to be a doctor .Is that what you want to do?

Paulzx

Tell me how wrote: »

. My problem is that nurses are ignoring the fact that it is nurses in managerial roles who are using up a huge amount of money allocated for paying nurses and therefore those on the ward are not paid enough.

Do you not believe that firstly nurses should be managed and secondly that they should be managed by nurses in senior positions?

Who should manage them? Should there be no management? Should nurses in grades above that of staff nurses not be paid more than those they manage due to the extra responsability.

I don't understand your issue with having nurses in managerial roles

Tell me how

Paulzx wrote: »

Do you not believe that firstly nurses should be managed and secondly that they should be managed by nurses in senior positions?

Who should manage them? Should there be no management? Should nurses in grades above that of staff nurses not be paid more than those they manage due to the extra responsability.

I don't understand your issue with having nurses in managerial roles

No. Of course there should be managers and managers should be paid more.

But, if the average wage of 57K is being skewed so excessively by the numbers in non-nursing roles then there must be too many of them.

I have my own single piece of anecdotal evidence in this respect from a consultant who told me that a hospital he worked in in Canada had 2 nursing managers, an equivalent sized hospital in Ireland had 15.