Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Goldengirl

Tell me how wrote: »

No. Of course there should be managers and managers should be paid more.

But, if the average wage of 57K is being skewed so excessively by the numbers in non-nursing roles then there must be too many of them.

I have my own single piece of anecdotal evidence in this respect from a consultant who told me that a hospital he worked in in Canada had 2 nursing managers, an equivalent sized hospital in Ireland had 15.

Jayse he must have been working in a right kip!

Goldengirl

rob316 wrote: »

They'll give them the money but it'll fix nothing nurses will be just getting paid more to compensate for poor conditions.

It's a start, and I can guarantee where nursing levels improve so do patient care. I have heard do much about the Australian health system for years and how the high nurse to patient ratios contribute to improved outcomes for patients there. Nurses will fight to improve standards for patients, that is what we always do, but being ground down persistently and undermined is leading to high levels of burnout in senior nurses, and it's very hard to be an advocate when your own working conditions are poor.

noodler

I'm disappointed by the lack of analytical thought by, seemingly, the majority of the public.

When did 36k become a bad starting salary?

Nobody is really basing their support on anything other than a general believe that they are underpaid and there is a retention issue when there is vast evidence to the contrary.

What's more, there have been nurse pay rises every year since 2016, and again this year as part of PS deals. Ignoring annual increments.

Just saying they should be paid more because, is serious slippery slope stuff.

The attacks on individual ministers and politicians all over social media is borderline pathetic. You'd swear being a TD or a minister was an 9-5 job, or even being a Minister.

Pay increases the whole public sector gets causing a rabble when they are applied to politicians etc.

Its just disappointing how populism runs rampant over the country when we've been spending like mad the last few years.

slipperyox

noodler wrote: »

I'm disappointed by the lack of analytical thought by, seemingly, the majority of the public.

When did 36k become a bad starting salary?

Nobody is really basing their support on anything other than a general believe that they are underpaid and there is a retention issue when there is vast evidence to the contrary.

What's more, there have been nurse pay rises every year since 2016, and again this year as part of PS deals. Ignoring annual increments.

Just saying they should be paid more because, is serious slippery slope stuff.

The attacks on individual ministers and politicians all over social media is borderline pathetic. You'd swear being a TD or a minister was an 9-5 job, or even being a Minister.

Pay increases the whole public sector gets causing a rabble when they are applied to politicians etc.

Its just disappointing how populism runs rampant over the country when we've been spending like mad the last few years.

What is happening with modern society, is that kindness is valued more than truth.

Tell me how

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Again, all these comparisons to other countries are totally pointless without comparing the cost of living in the same graph. How much do people pay in rent in those countries? How much are utilities? How much is fuel? How much is food? How much is charged by restaurants, bars, cinemas etc? How much does childcare cost? How much does healthcare cost? How much does public transport cost? How much does insurance costs? How heavily are those earnings taxed?

Talking about comparative incomes without simultaneously comparing the cost of living is utterly meaningless and moronic. Ireland in general and Dublin in particular is exorbitantly overpriced to live in, and this has knock on effects on what can be considered a good living wage.

Are nurses the only group affected by the national cost of living?

road_high

noodler wrote: »

I'm disappointed by the lack of analytical thought by, seemingly, the majority of the public.

When did 36k become a bad starting salary?

Nobody is really basing their support on anything other than a general believe that they are underpaid and there is a retention issue when there is vast evidence to the contrary.

What's more, there have been nurse pay rises every year since 2016, and again this year as part of PS deals. Ignoring annual increments.

Just saying they should be paid more because, is serious slippery slope stuff.

The attacks on individual ministers and politicians all over social media is borderline pathetic. You'd swear being a TD or a minister was an 9-5 job, or even being a Minister.

Pay increases the whole public sector gets causing a rabble when they are applied to politicians etc.

Its just disappointing how populism runs rampant over the country when we've been spending like mad the last few years.

Most sensible point of the thread right here. We can’t base pay increases on emotional blackmail, especially in a state that was bankrupt only a few years ago.
It’s lunacy hysteria on a grand scale

road_high

Tell me how wrote: »

Are nurses the only group affected by the national cost of living?

And the only ones paying taxes. And the only ones caring for the sick and dying, apparently. And the only ones that have completed extremely challenging BSc

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah, you refuted a claim by showing an article in which a source stated the average earnings are 57K.

Your claim was that you saw no other evidence for salary other than 57k.

I gave you many sources of evidence. What more do you want?

When you have thousands of nurses across a dozen grades with various levels of education, experience, qualifications and roles, with overtime, allowances and other sources of income, it can be difficult to get a straight answer.

road_high

jay0109 wrote: »

Well, that type of economics will leave the country in a good place :rolleyes:

That’s the level of discussion you’ll have with the average nurse and their cheerleaders- basically we are saints and deserve more cash.

noodler

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Your claim was that you saw no other evidence for salary other than 57k.

I gave you many sources of evidence. What more do you want?

When you have thousands of nurses across a dozen grades with various levels of education, experience, qualifications and roles, with overtime, allowances and other sources of income, it can be difficult to get a straight answer.

57k is the average published by the department of public expenditure and reform.

Twenty Grand

noodler wrote: »

57k is the average published by the department of public expenditure and reform.

Of which 12k is made up of allowances which are not available to all nurses and involve overtime, specialisation and performance of duties and extra work that they probably wouldnt be doing if the place was adequately staffed.

The basic average staff nurse wage is 43.5k and the max is 45k as it says in the report. These aren't good wages.

rn

One of the big budgeting problems is the gross variably in salary payout. As is the case with a few public sector jobs, the basic salary is used to calculate other payments that effect the actual salary payout for budget.

The compromise might be possible to pay nurses a higher base salary, but with removal of other allowances and overtime payments . That would allow nurses a better distribution of the average salary, but keep total budget with a more modest increase.

I find it difficult not to support nurses, but their salary claim appears too high IMHO. Easy say that on boards, but difficult to say in public. I can see this rolling on.

While other jobs in private sector pay a higher salary, take home pay is comparable as in private sector there are fewer allowances or variable payout. Many private sector jobs take an all in approach to getting job done with the basic salary. Rightly or wrongly.

RacoonQueen

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The basic average staff nurse wage is 43.5k and the max is 45k as it says in the report. These aren't good wages.

Find it baffling that so many people are saying they are good wages. The starting wage isn't bad for a 22 year old just out of college but it takes a long time to ramp up to 45k and it is a fair comment that AHS posts start on ~35k. I've worked alongside graduate physios and in turn graduate nurses, I'd be far more confident with then competency of a graduate nurse than physio.
Comparatively a HCA on a ward and a physio assistant are on the exact same wage structure.

Aside from this, this isn't all about salary. The nurses want proper staffing. Wards are understaffed and that needs to change. The hospitals / government don't appear to be happy to change this.

HandsomeBob

I haven't a clue about what packages Nurses are on but I do know retention is an issue between staff moving to the private sector or emigrating.

That is not good for the future of our public health services. It's easy to dismiss that if your healthcare is private but for the majority of people this will prove to be a big problem. And it's already a problem because anyone who has experienced the public health services in recent years will know how desperate it is, where all people get for a lifetime of paying their VHI is the bills paid and not much else.

So I do hope Nurses get something that they can be happy with. At the same time it's an unfortunate reality that you don't get something for nothing in this country so this should be very much a negotiation where both parties are reasonable.

Miike

HandsomeBob wrote: »

I haven't a clue about what packages Nurses are on but I do know retention is an issue between staff moving to the private sector or emigrating.

That is not good for the future of our public health services. It's easy to dismiss that if your healthcare is private but for the majority of people this will prove to be a big problem.

So I do hope Nurses get something that they can be happy with. At the same time it's an unfortunate reality that you don't get something for nothing in this country so this should be very much a negotiation where both parties are reasonable.

Do you think nurses are being unreasonable asking to be paid the extra 12% so that they're on the same level as other healthcare team members like OT Physio or Social Work?

Nurses have objectively tougher jobs than all of the above and have longer working weeks. This rhetoric of BUT THEY HAVE OVERTIME! AND PREMIUMS! is ****ing bananas. So does everyone else in the HSE.

facehugger99

noodler wrote: »

I'm disappointed by the lack of analytical thought by, seemingly, the majority of the public.

Feelings >>>>>>>>> Facts.

Fiftyfilthy

Genuinely Iittle simple for them. They knew what they were getting themselves into both pay and work conditions

Don’t like it leave , simple as

wrangler

Miike wrote: »

Do you think nurses are being unreasonable asking to be paid the extra 12% so that they're on the same level as other healthcare team members like OT Physio or Social Work?

Nurses have objectively tougher jobs than all of the above and have longer working weeks. This rhetoric of BUT THEY HAVE OVERTIME! AND PREMIUMS! is ****ing bananas. So does everyone else in the HSE.

Are taxpayers being unreasonable to expect a proper service, and not have the necessity for the cost of health insurance to get timely healthcare,
Public servants seem to ignore the bonus of their pension, granted they have contributed to it but there is no pension provider that will give them such a generous pension based on their meagre contributions

Miike

wrangler wrote: »

Are taxpayers being unreasonable to expect a proper service, and not have the necessity for the cost of health insurance to get timely healthcare,
Public servants seem to ignore the bonus of their pension, granted they have contributed to it but there is no pension provider that will give them such a generous pension based on their meagre contributions

And that's somehow the nurses problem? Take 12 off the nurses lads. We need to make up our pension somewhere... they have enough money. With their overtime and premiums!

...Get a grip. My pension isn't worth a sod from my public service job. Maybe if i was on the regional or national directorate.

Lillyfae

facehugger99 wrote: »

Feelings >>>>>>>>> Facts.

It's unbelievable. I was just listening to a podcast this morning, from before the strike, a woman whose father was in hospital was supporting the striking nurses. She said that whilst in hospital, he had had an accident resulting in surgery, but that the nurses were angels and deserved everything and more- that the care he was getting was second to none. I thought, literally, it's second to none- second to no care at all, negligence. I would be suing the hospital!

There certainly should be nurses of varying degrees of qualification but specialization should be done on a necessity basis. It seems to me that any nurse can train for management and then are paid as such because they have that qualification. Of course we need more nurses on the wards, more than we need the salary to be higher. I don't think there was ever a need for standard nursing to require a degree, and to be honest, I'd feel the same about teaching.

People aren't becoming nurses because they care about anyone. It's an in demand skill with guaranteed employment, and ample opportunity to work abroad- once everyone wakes up to that fact we'll be alot better off.

1641

We have one of the most expensive health services in Europe. It does not deliver at that level. Wages are the biggest drag on costs. I am not saying that individuals or groups don't work hard within it - but as an overall system it is not fit for purpose. Paying any one group (or all groups) more is not going to fix this (it will make it worse).

Drastic reforms and reorgnisation is needed. Yet each and every health service union obstructs reform because it impacts on some or all of their members (eg, moving a service from one location to another, merging services, closing inefficient or ineffective services, changing skill mix,etc). Of course, they are all for reform as long as it doesn't impact their own - impossible.

There should be no increase for anyone in the HSE until the whole shebang is totally reorganised. Committment to reform in return for increases is useless - we have seen this before with no follow through.

We deserve a service that is fit for purpose. We are paying enough into it but it is not delivering. Reform and then look at appropriate salaries for everyone.

brendanwalsh

Can't see the government budging on this.

All out strike with no nurses on the wards would bring things to a swift conclusion.

Wanderer78

1641 wrote:

We deserve a service that is fit for purpose. We are paying enough into it but it is not delivering. Reform and then look at appropriate salaries for everyone.

With the rising costs of living, rapidly rising in some cases, wage stagnation simply won't work, it would probably lead to further dysfunction of the system, it's probably also worth noting, all health care systems globally have an element of dysfunctionalality to them.

Twenty Grand

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Can't see the government budging on this.

All out strike with no nurses on the wards would bring things to a swift conclusion.

Then people would die.

Nurses aren't going to do that.

1641

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With the rising costs of living, rapidly rising in some cases, wage stagnation simply won't work, it would probably lead to further dysfunction of the system, it's probably also worth noting, all health care systems globally have an element of dysfunctionalality to them.

An element of dysfunctionality is not good but how we would welcome it in our health service. It is systematically dysfunctional.



Wage stagnation? What is this?-



Public Service Stability Agreement
01-Jan-18 All public service salaries to increase by 1%
01-Oct-18 All public service salaries to increase by a further 1%
01-Jan-19 Everyone earning less than €30,000 will get a 1% increase
01-Sep-19 All public service salaries to increase by 1.75%
01-Jan-20 Everyone earning less than €32,000 will get a 0.5% increase
01-Oct-20 All public sector salaries to increase by 2%

Mad_maxx

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Can't see the government budging on this.

All out strike with no nurses on the wards would bring things to a swift conclusion.

If brexit goes anyway better than expected, the government will hand the nurses what they want, the public always back nurses, they are second only to pensioners

Mad_maxx

I'd happily support the nurses if they were downing tools in demand of improved workplace conditions but they are just looking for more money

Wanderer78

1641 wrote:

An element of dysfunctionality is not good but how we would welcome it in our health service. It is systematically dysfunctional.

Our health care systems is already dysfunctional, just like many others around the world. It's clearly obvious that we re experiencing a period of rapid asset price inflation v's low wage inflation, maintaining this will just add further dysfunction to our system. Wages is only one aspect of this debate, but sadly it's becoming the most domanant topic, resources, or lack of, probably should be the most domanant topic of discussion.

RacoonQueen

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'd happily support the nurses if they were downing tools in demand of improved workplace conditions but they are just looking for more money

No they're not. They are looking for better workplace conditions. The pay thing has taken over, probably media fuelled. The strike is about working conditions AND pay.

Geuze

wrangler wrote: »

Public servants seem to ignore the bonus of their pension, granted they have contributed to it but there is no pension provider that will give them such a generous pension based on their meagre contributions

PS pay 6.5% pension cont plus up to 10% PRD.

I would not call that meagre.

I accept that the pension is good.

Geuze

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Aside from this, this isn't all about salary. The nurses want proper staffing. Wards are understaffed and that needs to change. The hospitals / government don't appear to be happy to change this.

If wards are understaffed, then why or how are we overspending on healthcare?

Graces7

RacoonQueen wrote: »

No they're not. They are looking for better workplace conditions. The pay thing has taken over, probably media fuelled. The strike is about working conditions AND pay.

Y'day people who were already suffering had surgery etc postponed. That negates any sympathy for the nurses and expresses their priorities ..

Olivia Munns Bum

Nursing should be a FETAC level 6 diploma imo,
then they wouldn't have these notions above their station.

What screams at me listening to nurses and commentators the last few days is that it's not a pay rise they need, it's a big improvement in work practices & working conditions.
Thats for the HSE management to sort out.. so that's not going to happen anytime soon.

lawred2

The millionaire consultants using publicly paid nurses as their unpaid help probably isn't great for morale..

lawred2

Geuze wrote: »

PS pay 6.5% pension cont plus up to 10% PRD.

I would not call that meagre.

I accept that the pension is good.

Well when the contribution doesn't cover the actuarial cost of the pension then it's fair to consider it meager

Thephantomsmask

Miike wrote: »

Do you think nurses are being unreasonable asking to be paid the extra 12% so that they're on the same level as other healthcare team members like OT Physio or Social Work?

Nurses have objectively tougher jobs than all of the above and have longer working weeks. This rhetoric of BUT THEY HAVE OVERTIME! AND PREMIUMS! is ****ing bananas. So does everyone else in the HSE.

*Everybody* doesn't get paid overtime and premiums, I don't even get paid to be on call yet it is still expected of me and I do it.

A question, if nurses have their base salary raised by 12% to match AHPs (it is unfair in my eyes to blanket raise for all grades without addressing the 2 tier pay system penalising new graduates, they are the ones leaving the country after all) will nurses be willing to forego the educational and salary allowances that they currently receive that the AHPs don't?

I don't know about OT, physio or social work as you listed but none of the few hundred people working in my discipline have any of the following, off the top of my head, open to them:

Paid final year college placement,
Opportunities to have master fees paid for them and do them while retaining increment benefits.
Extra pay allowances for post grad qualifications.
Extra pay allowances for specific units/locations.
Many more ways of advancing their career and increasing remuneration, either by going down the managerial route (multiple CNMs of various grades in every ward and dept without even considering the higher managerial grades) or via specialisation (CNS and ANP).

Obviously not every nurse receives all of these but they are there to be availed of. Not so for others, perhaps that is why there is a base salary disparity, to account for the lack of advancement options others have over the course of their career? Somehow I doubt all of those allowances would be given up in lieu of higher base pay.

The primary focus should be to end 2 tier pay, a 12% pay rise isn't much to encourage a new graduate to stay in the country if they are still on 10% less than staff on the old pay scheme.

Thephantomsmask

Olivia Munns Bum wrote: »

Nursing should be a FETAC level 6 diploma imo,
then they wouldn't have these notions above their station.

Seriously? We can all have opposing opinions on the current situation but don't make a mockery of their skills and intelligence.

Geuze

lawred2 wrote: »

Well when the contribution doesn't cover the actuarial cost of the pension then it's fair to consider it meager

An employees conts should not cover the whole cost, as the employer should be contributing as well.

You seem to imply that a PS pension cont should cover the entire cost of their pension?

lawred2

Geuze wrote: »

An employees conts should not cover the whole cost, as the employer should be contributing as well.

You seem to imply that a PS pension cont should cover the entire cost of their pension?

when the taxpayer funds both contributions it's pretty much an irrelevance how you split them

eagle eye

lawred2 wrote:

Well when the contribution doesn't cover the actuarial cost of the pension then it's fair to consider it meager

What does this mean? Can you break it down with figures?

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

If wards are understaffed, then why or how are we overspending on healthcare?

This is worth repeating.

Olivia Munns Bum

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Seriously? We can all have opposing opinions on the current situation but don't make a mockery of their skills and intelligence.

I'm not making a mockery of their skills or intelligence but its hardly medicine.

General nursing doesn't need to be a degree level qualification. I'll stick by that.

Berserker

Olivia Munns Bum wrote: »

Nursing should be a FETAC level 6 diploma imo, then they wouldn't have these notions above their station.

Nursing in an incredibly challenging job, which requires years of study and training. It's not some diploma level course.

Olivia Munns Bum wrote: »

What screams at me listening to nurses and commentators the last few days is that it's not a pay rise they need, it's a big improvement in work practices & working conditions.

Nail on the head on that one. The conditions are a major issue. Not sure what can be done to improve them in the short term though.

lawred2 wrote: »

The millionaire consultants using publicly paid nurses as their unpaid help probably isn't great for morale..

Yeah, hospital consultants, who've spend well over ten years training, working sixty hour weeks, for a minimum hourly wage and stay here to practice instead of moving to the likes of the USA, where they can double their salary, are the real problem.

iamwhoiam

Olivia Munns Bum wrote: »

I'm not making a mockery of their skills or intelligence but its hardly medicine.

General nursing doesn't need to be a degree level qualification. I'll stick by that.

Well lets hope you never need their skills in ICU

Lillyfae

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Well lets hope you never need their skills in ICU

He shouldn't- he should be receiving care in ICU from ICU nurses. His point is valid, and "some diploma level course" should be adequate for a general nursing position- where's the snobbery coming into it?? Like I said, specialisms should be sought as the industry demands it and not just granted to anyone who feels like they've got the time (and training budget) to go up a pay grade.

lawred2

Berserker wrote: »

Nail on the head on that one. The conditions are a major issue. Not sure what can be done to improve them in the short term though.

the conditions may be shocking

that's not the stated goal of this strike however

Berserker wrote: »

Yeah, hospital consultants, who've spend well over ten years training, working sixty hour weeks, for a minimum hourly wage and stay here to practice instead of moving to the likes of the USA, where they can double their salary, are the real problem.

that's called missing the point

I've no issue with consultant remuneration. I have an issue with an Irish system that sees consultants using public staff and facilities for their private business.

And those working within the health service are acutely aware of it.

Lillyfae

lawred2 wrote: »

And those working within the health service are acutely aware of it.

Nurse managers maybe? They must see staffing levels suffering when they're rostering if this is the case.

Martina1991

So what will we do if nurses do get the 12% pay increase across the board and young nurses continue to travel and emigrate anyway?

€300m will be coming out of the healthcare budget and the conditions and under staffing won't have improved.

iamwhoiam

Geuze wrote: »

If wards are understaffed, then why or how are we overspending on healthcare?

Because nurses salaries are only a percentage of the spend .

1641

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Because nurses salaries are only a percentage of the spend .

You mean a percentage of the overspend ?