Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Just heard on radio that it’s going to cost €80 odd million to move staff to the new children’s hospital. WTAF??

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Just heard on radio that it’s going to cost €80 odd million to move staff to the new children’s hospital. WTAF??

i think id be more concerned about its escalating construction costs more than anything, at this rate, it wouldnt surprise me if its final bill was 3 billion

Tell me how

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i think id be more concerned about its escalating construction costs more than anything, at this rate, it wouldnt surprise me if its final bill was 3 billion

It's definitely going to be well over €2B.

Shocking level of mismanagement.

iamwhoiam

1641 wrote: »

You mean a percentage of the overspend ?

Dont forget the top brass of the HSE on massive salaries.

noodler

Scary some people don't consider 57k a good salary.

Its only an average too, not like nurses can't get promoted or will continue to get wage increases under the PSSA.

Some people also don't seem to understand how good a public sector pension is. How much it would cost in the private sector to accumulate and the benefit of having a DB in this day and age.

TheRiverman

The current projected overspend of eight hundred million euro on the possible "white elephant" children's hospital would do as lot for nurses, streamlining services,improving conditions in Emergency Departments and wards and getting Primary Care Centres working to full potential.

beertons

You'd swear their take home was €47k here, the way some people are outraged.

SoundsRight

No. They're living in a fantasy land.

Wanderer78

TheRiverman wrote: »

The current projected overspend of eight hundred million euro on the possible "white elephant" children's hospital would do as lot for nurses, streamlining services,mproving conditions in Emergency Departments and wards and getting Primary Care Centres working to full potential.

yet another 'buzz word', which translates as, increasing productivity, while reducing costs, in particular, maintaining relatively low wage inflation, while the cost of living continues to increase.

hatrickpatrick

Tell me how wrote: »

Are nurses the only group affected by the national cost of living?

Not at all, I never claimed that they were - indeed I referenced other strikes in recent years, such as the LUAS strike a number of years ago, as analogues. This isn't about gross pay in one sector, it's about a combination of take-home pay being hit by a very unprogressive taxation system and a constantly spiralling cost of living leading to a reduction in purchasing power, and I'm arguing that since the government is determined not to cave on pay rises, they should instead cast aside their neoliberal "mug free marketz" ideology and directly intervene to bring the cost of living down across the board. Tackling council rates and other fees businesses have to pay, insurance costs for businesses driving prices up, sky high rents, lack of social housing, low state subvention to public transport leading to yearly price hikes - all of these things could be dealt with either directly or indirectly through legislation, and would ultimately do a lot to ease pressure on pay in both the private and public sector.

The government are always going on about how Ireland needs competitive wages, but why do they seem to think that a competitive cost of living is not part of that equation? It's easy to suggest that upward pressure on wages is the result of personal greed, but more often than not it stems directly from spiralling costs of living or falling purchasing power.

noodler

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yet another 'buzz word', which translates as, increasing productivity, while reducing costs, in particular, maintaining relatively low wage inflation, while the cost of living continues to increase.

Pretty sure it means having more services in a single hospital.

1641

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yet another 'buzz word', which translates as, increasing productivity, while reducing costs, in particular, maintaining relatively low wage inflation, while the cost of living continues to increase.

Yes, that would be disgraceful. Imagine cutting costs and increasing productivity in the health service. Next thing they will be suggesting is re-investing the money to improve services and outcomes !

Wanderer78

1641 wrote: »

Yes, that would be disgraceful. Imagine cutting costs and increasing productivity in the health service. Next thing they will be suggesting is re-investing the money to improve services and outcomes !

theres plenty of evidence to support productivity has increased across most sectors but wage share increases have been poor in response to this increase

hatrickpatrick

1641 wrote: »

Yes, that would be disgraceful. Imagine cutting costs and increasing productivity in the health service. Next thing they will be suggesting is re-investing the money to improve services and outcomes !

If "increased productivity and lower costs" translates to "asking people to work harder for the same or less pay", which it often does, it is disgraceful. Actually that's pretty much what's been going on for the last few decades as wages have stagnated across the West while productivity has increased.

Martina1991

Martina1991 wrote: »

So what will we do if nurses do get the 12% pay increase across the board and young nurses continue to travel and emigrate anyway?

Going by the logic of the unions, give them another €300m of course

Wanderer78

salonfire wrote: »

Going by the logic of the unions, give them another €300m of course

300 million for the staff, but the cost of the childrens hospital is up to 2 billion, yet some seemed to be more outraged by the 300 million!

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

300 million for the staff, but the cost of the childrens hospital is up to 2 billion, yet some seemed to be more outraged by the 300 million!

Iv heard no one delighted over that either. It's woeful project management.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

300 million for the staff, but the cost of the childrens hospital is up to 2 billion, yet some seemed to be more outraged by the 300 million!

The hospital when built will last 100 years.

7 years from now, this pay rise will be greater than the cost of the hospital and will continue to be more expensive than it for each year after that.

Wanderer78

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Iv heard no one delighted over that either. It's woeful project management.

its fcuking disturbing

Wanderer78

salonfire wrote: »

The hospital when built will last 100 years.

7 years from now, this pay rise will be greater than the cost of the hospital and will continue to be more expensive than it for each year after that.

so we should continue with our current approach of wage suppression, while the cost of living continues to rise?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so we should continue with our current approach of wage suppression, while the cost of living continues to rise?

Wage increases will likely increase the cost of living.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

Wage increases will likely increase the cost of living.

just as much as the polices implemented to raise asset prices?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so we should continue with our current approach of wage suppression, while the cost of living continues to rise?

Did you miss the pay rises already scheduled?

On top of reductions on their pension contributions and increase to their pension contributions thresholds.

All of which leaves more money in their pockets.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

just as much as the polices implemented to raise asset prices?

I'm not at all sure to be honest.
I wouldn't have the knowledge of the figures, how much are the policies implemented to raise asset prices increasing the cost of living?
What are these policies too that you are referring to? I'm not familiar with them at all.

1641

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If "increased productivity and lower costs" translates to "asking people to work harder for the same or less pay", which it often does, it is disgraceful. Actually that's pretty much what's been going on for the last few decades as wages have stagnated across the West while productivity has increased.

No, I think people generally work hard but often inefficiently or ineffectively.


The Health Service is full of vested interest who support change in theory but oppose it in practice. Each union (not confined to Nursing by any means) is out for its own members (how can we benefit from this and avoid any inconvenience for our own?). In the past, groups have pocketed any increase going while being obstructive to change in practice.


The total amount of money we pour into our Health Service relative to the quality of service delivered is a disgrace - any, with an aging population in the years ahead, unsustainable.


Radical reform should come first - then by all means look at wages, salaries and allowances.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

I'm not at all sure to be honest.
I wouldn't have the knowledge of the figures, how much are the policies implemented to raise asset prices increasing the cost of living?
What are these policies too that you are referring to? I'm not familiar with them at all.

its becoming clearly obvious, over the last couple of decades, it has been favorable to implement polices that have caused, and continue to cause, asset price inflation, in particular housing, but not so favorable to implement policies to create wage inflation, i.e. rising costs of housing is good, along with relatively low wage inflation. thankfully the wealth created has 'trickled down'!:rolleyes:

hatrickpatrick

Augeo wrote: »

Wage increases will likely increase the cost of living.

So what's your solution to increase individual purchasing power then? That's all a pay rise is about. How would you reduce the cost of living, policy-wise, without cutting pay?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its becoming clearly obvious, over the last couple of decades, it has been favorable to implement polices that have caused, and continue to cause, asset price inflation, in particular housing, but not so favorable to implement policies to create wage inflation, i.e. rising costs of housing is good, along with relatively low wage inflation. thankfully the wealth created has 'trickled down'!:rolleyes:

What happened in 2008 so? Again, what policies were implemented, detail them if they exist.
You love the trickle down quip. SW increases etc and thousands receiving HAP etc is actually trickle down ....... folks getting plenty for doing SFA.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what's your solution to increase individual purchasing power then? That's all a pay rise is about. How would you reduce the cost of living, policy-wise, without cutting pay?

Do we need to increase individual purchasing power?
In the case of the nurses that's already in hand, there's an agreement in place iirc.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

What happened in 2008 so?

a crash that was caused by dangerous polices, effectively allowing banks to print as much money as possible in the form of credit, dramatically causing the rapid rise of assets, in particular housing, ultimately showing, project 'asset price inflation' as a serious fcuk up, of which hasnt been resolved, but shur you know all this, you re not stupid

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

What happened in 2008 so? Again, what policies were implemented, detail them if they exist.
You love the trickle down quip. SW increases etc and thousands receiving HAP etc is actually trickle down ....... folks getting plenty for doing SFA.



Do we need to increase individual purchasing power?
In the case of the nurses that's already in hand, there's an agreement in place iirc.

and you love all that free market, libertarian nonsense

Twenty Grand

salonfire wrote: »

The hospital when built will last 100 years.

7 years from now, this pay rise will be greater than the cost of the hospital and will continue to be more expensive than it for each year after that.

So it's an empty building that'll be left to rot?

Or is it a busting building that will cost 10s of millions per year to heat and keep running?

Twenty Grand

Twenty Grand wrote: »

So it's an empty building that'll be left to rot?

Or is it a busting building that will cost 10s of millions per year to heat and keep running?

Those millions per year are current expenditure already being spent trying to keep the old knackered children's hospitals running.

The new one should hopefully be more efficient.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and you love all that free market, libertarian nonsense

Paying your way I like to think of it as

Twenty Grand

Twenty Grand wrote: »

So it's an empty building that'll be left to rot?

Or is it a busting building that will cost 10s of millions per year to heat and keep running?

The 2 billion referred to that we are supposed to be outraged about is the build project.

Pay rises will surpass that amount and more after just 7 years.

hatrickpatrick

Augeo wrote: »

Do we need to increase individual purchasing power?

Of course we do. Most of the social and industrial unrest taking place not only in Ireland, but across the world in recent years has been the result of wages not keeping place with price inflation in the decades since the post-war consensus was substituted for neoliberalism. The cost of living has increased faster than average wages, resulting in a declining quality of life. Maximising quality of life across the board for this and future generations should be the first priority of a democratic government, therefore policy-wise, either wages need to increase or the cost of living needs to decrease.

Or should people just accept declining quality of life over time?

1641

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not at all, This isn't about gross pay in one sector, it's about a combination of take-home pay being hit by a very unprogressive taxation system

IT seems there must be another Ireland in a different solar system. For those with an address in Ireland, The Earth, we have a comparatively very progressive tax system.Summary of OECD report here:



http://www.publicpolicy.ie/ireland-has-the-most-progressive-income-tax-system-in-the-eu-2/

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Of course we do. Most of the social and industrial unrest taking place not only in Ireland, but across the world in recent years has been the result of wages not keeping place with price inflation in the decades since the post-war consensus was substituted for neoliberalism. The cost of living has increased faster than average wages, resulting in a declining quality of life. Maximising quality of life across the board for this and future generations should be the first priority of a democratic government, therefore policy-wise, either wages need to increase or the cost of living needs to decrease.

Or should people just accept declining quality of life over time?

So your saying those living in low cost rural areas should get less.

I agree.

Any pay increase should be targeted to those in large urban areas ie Dublin.

mariaalice

salonfire wrote: »

The 2 billion referred to that we are supposed to be outraged about is the build project.

Pay rises will surpass that amount and more after just 7 years.

This might be an eccentric view, but maybe it's not incompetence but the extream complexity of modern very large infrastructure projects combined with the moving target of modern technology and IT .i.e its almost out of date by the time it is commissioned for use, its those issues that are causing the massive overspend.

The complexity has become beyond human capabilities at this moment in time.

crusier

I begrudge others a pay rise even if they deserve it because I hate what I'm doing and I don't want anyone else to be rewarded for professional work in a life saving profession. Most of them are in a career they sought and that should be enough for them. Most are Women also so they are not equal. I'm Irish and I'm bitter, but I demand perfect treatment when I go to hospital, I am pathetic

hatrickpatrick

salonfire wrote: »

So your saying those living in low cost rural areas should get less.

I agree.

Any pay increase should be targeted to those in large urban areas ie Dublin.

I don't know the ins and outs of how much the cost of living differs in urban vs rural areas, having not lived in the latter myself, but if there's a huge difference, it could make sense to introduce allowances for those living in higher cost areas, such as the London Allowance afforded to British public servants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_weighting

But the rural / urban divide in terms of the cost of living is still set against the backdrop of a general decline in the wage : living cost ratio since the 1970s, and this is something which needs to be addressed as the national level.

I've been saying this for a long time, but I do think it's only a matter of time before we have to factor overpopulation into the equation. The planet has more and more people competing for fixed resources, this is a situation which cannot be sustained without plunging quality of life.

crusier

crusier wrote: »

I begrudge others a pay rise even if they deserve it because I hate what I'm doing and I don't want anyone else to be rewarded for professional work in a life saving profession. Most of them are in a career they sought and that should be enough for them. Most are Women also so they are not equal. I'm Irish and I'm bitter, but I demand perfect treatment when I go to hospital, I am pathetic

They are well rewarded.

They are in line for further agreed increases.

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Of course we do. Most of the social and industrial unrest taking place not only in Ireland, but across the world in recent years has been the result of wages not keeping place with price inflation in the decades since the post-war consensus was substituted for neoliberalism. The cost of living has increased faster than average wages, resulting in a declining quality of life. Maximising quality of life across the board for this and future generations should be the first priority of a democratic government, therefore policy-wise, either wages need to increase or the cost of living needs to decrease.

Or should people just accept declining quality of life over time?

Total horseh1t in Ireland.
20/30 years ago many lived in cold houses with an open fire as the only heat option.
The quality of life in Ireland today is exponentially better.
And 20% of housing built now gets given to folk for SFA effectively.

mariaalice

crusier wrote: »

I begrudge others a pay rise even if they deserve it because I hate what I'm doing and I don't want anyone else to be rewarded for professional work in a life saving profession. Most of them are in a career they sought and that should be enough for them. Most are Women also so they are not equal. I'm Irish and I'm bitter, but I demand perfect treatment when I go to hospital, I am pathetic

At least you are honest unlike some of the respondents here.:P

uck51js9zml2yt

I'm sitting in James hospital waiting on a clinic. There are at least 2 nurses dealing with patient files. Multiply that by all the clinics this afternoon.

Why aren't clerical staff doing it? And they say the wards are understaffed!!

James Brown

crusier wrote: »

I begrudge others a pay rise even if they deserve it because I hate what I'm doing and I don't want anyone else to be rewarded for professional work in a life saving profession. Most of them are in a career they sought and that should be enough for them. Most are Women also so they are not equal. I'm Irish and I'm bitter, but I demand perfect treatment when I go to hospital, I am pathetic

You and every Fine Gael voter.
I see it as being tough but we should endevour to help those worse off not penalise them for the bad management of government.
We seem to have a habit of what you say above. Meanwhile the lads at the top are doing great. When the next crash comes it'll be bail outs and sweet deals for the lads austerity for the rest of us and looking at the poor, sick and elderly as the problem, as is the Fine Gael distraction.

mariaalice

Aside from bitter posts its the sheer illogicality of some of it, the poster will want top class care for their child, parents, family members top class midwifery for themselves or their partner but still say F..them.

facehugger99

No doubt some posters believe there is no maximum wage to which a nurse is not entitled.

Perhaps we could pay them each a salary of €1 billion?

James Brown

facehugger99 wrote: »

No doubt some posters believe there is no maximum wage to which a nurse is not entitled.

Perhaps we could pay them each a salary of €1 billion?

It's my understanding that they've a right to ask for whatever they like and nobody has the right to stop them. It is however the governments job to negotiate on behalf of the tax payer. The idea that Nurses and Midwives asking for a pay rise are the enemy is a Fine Gael spun one.

hawkelady

salonfire wrote: »

They are well rewarded.

They are in line for further agreed increases.

According to you ! Well done .. the nurses seem to believe they aren’t. Every news channel and paper had reports from people coming/going from a&e etc and everyone of them said they supported the nurses .. Leo and pascal are going to have to come up with something I think.
After a few more days of strikes and the number rescheduled of ops will be near 150k

iamwhoiam

mariaalice wrote: »

Aside from bitter posts its the sheer illogicality of some of it, the poster will want top class care for their child, parents, family members top class midwifery for themselves or their partner but still say F..them.

Exactly . And to retain qualified experienced nurses we need to look at why they are leaving in droves . The sheer workload and stress is driving experienced nurses into early retirement and private clinics . Without the senior staff the system will collapse
Everyone wants the very best care for themselves and their families and so they need to look at how best to achieve that care .
I personally took early retirement missing out on a better pension because of the stress on my mind and body . The ward lost a senior nurse and this is repeated over and over and over .