Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

omega man

Many support them because of emotion and not necessarily logic.
How any increase is funded and how to avoid further public service counter demands must be accepted as key obstacles.
The ‘pay nurses whatever they want’ mantra is cheap populist talk.

1641

mariaalice wrote: »

Aside from bitter posts its the sheer illogicality of some of it, the poster will want top class care for their child, parents, family members top class midwifery for themselves or their partner but still say F..them.

I suppose you could classify some of the posts as bitter - because of the poster's apparent surprise that everyone is not supportive of pouring even more money into the health service.:P


As regards expecting top class health care, that is a very reasonable expectation given the amount given to the HSE. Unfortunately we don't get it.



" Ireland spends €4,706 per head of population on healthcare, one-third more than the average across 35 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). The State’s spend last year was the seventh highest per person in the OECD" . On top of that spend via taxation, very many people pay more in order to have private health insurance - because they cannot rely on the public system to deliver, despite pouring money into it.

mikhail

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Exactly . And to retain qualified experienced nurses we need to look at why they are leaving in droves . The sheer workload and stress is driving experienced nurses into early retirement and private clinics . Without the senior staff the system will collapse
Everyone wants the very best care for themselves and their families and so they need to look at how best to achieve that care .
I personally took early retirement missing out on a better pension because of the stress on my mind and body . The ward lost a senior nurse and this is repeated over and over and over .

We keep hearing these anecdotes, and yet if the experienced staff are fleeing and the young staff are underpaid, why is the average wage still so high?

Truth is, I hear anecdotes just like these from friends and family in every industry. They're meaningless.

iamwhoiam

mikhail wrote: »

We keep hearing these anecdotes, and yet if the experienced staff are fleeing and the young staff are underpaid, why is the average wage still so high?

Truth is, I hear anecdotes just like these from friends and family in every industry. They're meaningless.

Its immaterial to me if you think my experience is anecdotal . I know my life and my reasons for how I found courage to resign . I resigned at 55 and the best thing for me that I did

brendanwalsh

Olivia Munns Bum wrote: »

I'm not making a mockery of their skills or intelligence but its hardly medicine.

General nursing doesn't need to be a degree level qualification. I'll stick by that.

No need to be nasty.
we could relegate nurses to wiping bums and handing out meds but that would be a very poor generalisation of their job.
They deserve every penny they want.

iamwhoiam

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Its immaterial to me if you think my experience is anecdotal . I know my life and my reasons for how I found courage to resign . I resigned at 55 and the best thing for me that I did

Sure we'd (most working folk) all love early retirement at 55, it doesn't take courage it takes the financial means to do so.

trellheim

General nursing doesn't need to be a degree level qualification. I'll stick by that.

Project 2000 and all the other stuff switching nursing from voca to degree is miles past. Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant, you're entitled to your opinion though.

Nursing is a degree profession and thats not going to change; they deserve the pay hike.

iamwhoiam

Augeo wrote: »

Sure we'd (most working folk) all love early retirement at 55, it doesn't take courage it takes the financial means to do so.

I said resigned .
Actually it took courage as I took another job .And wait till I was 60 to access my very small pension .

trellheim

trellheim wrote: »

Nursing is a degree profession and thats not going to change; they deserve the pay hike.

We forever hear what they deserve. After what amount do they not deserve?

iamwhoiam

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I said resigned .
Actually it took courage as I took another job .And wait till I was 60 to access my very small pension .

You also said ............

iamwhoiam wrote: »

......................................
I personally took early retirement............... .

iamwhoiam

Augeo wrote: »

You also said ............

Its called early retirement as you leave before your pension is complete . I missed out on 5 years contributions also and had to work elsewhere to survive . Sorry for misunderstanding .

hawkelady

hawkelady wrote: »

According to you ! Well done .. the nurses seem to believe they aren’t. Every news channel and paper had reports from people coming/going from a&e etc and everyone of them said they supported the nurses .. Leo and pascal are going to have to come up with something I think.
After a few more days of strikes and the number rescheduled of ops will be near 150k

Not me but the OECD. Note, this graph accounts for the cost of living in each of comparative countries.

https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/4463819/original/?width=630&version=4463819

mikhail

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Its immaterial to me if you think my experience is anecdotal . I know my life and my reasons for how I found courage to resign . I resigned at 55 and the best thing for me that I did

Its immaterial to me if you think your anecdote is important. See? I can be dismissive too.

Same old, same old entitled whinging with you nurses. You're never satisfied. The only thing I see here is a militant union I've long since lost any time for looking for a 12% across the board pay rise a couple of months before an event that casts massive uncertainty over the state finances for years to come. I see a union that screwed new entries to protect their members' pay during a national crisis, and are now shocked, shocked, that entry level jobs are harder to fill. I hope they dock the lot of them their increments under the public pay agreement they're reneging on.

mariaalice

salonfire wrote: »

Not me but the OECD. Note, this graph accounts for the cost of living in each of comparative countries.

https://img2-thejournal-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w680/s/img2.thejournal.ie/inline/4463819/original/?width=580&version=4463819

That does not take in to account working conditions though.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

That does not take in to account working conditions though.

Nobody is arguing against improving the work conditions.

Pay rises does not equate to better work conditions.

mikhail

mikhail wrote: »

Its immaterial to me if you think your anecdote is important. See? I can be dismissive too.

Same old, same old entitled whinging with you nurses. You're never satisfied. The only thing I see here is a militant union I've long since lost any time for looking for a 12% across the board pay rise a couple of months before an event that casts massive uncertainty over the state finances for years to come. I see a union that screwed new entries to protect their members' pay during a national crisis, and are now shocked, shocked, that entry level jobs are harder to fill. I hope they dock the lot of them their increments under the public pay agreement they're reneging on.

To be fair, nurses probably make a lot more difference in the world than most other professions. Also, your stance comes across quite spiteful. Whilst I don't agree with the 12% increase, I don't think the solution is to further penalise the nurses.

mikhail

Deleted User wrote: »

Whilst I don't agree with the 12% increase, I don't think the solution is to further penalise the nurses.

Well, I hope the sick and dying of the country appreciate the difference the nurses are not making to agitate for something we agree they don't deserve.

mikhail

mikhail wrote: »

Well, I hope the sick and dying of the country appreciate the difference the nurses are not making to agitate for something we agree they don't deserve.

Mate. What are you talking about? Do you think there were no nurses in any hospitals yesterday? Dying? Get real son and lay off the hyperbole.

Christ you are like that person who says why do pharmacists get paid so much? All they do is put labels on bottles.

noodler

"they deserve it" is not an argument.

Hearing it way too often.

wrangler

Deleted User wrote: »

Mate. What are you talking about? Do you think there were no nurses in any hospitals yesterday? Dying? Get real son and lay off the hyperbole.

Christ you are like that person who says why do pharmacists get paid so much? All they do is put labels on bottles.

Unfortunately all the sick and dying can't get into the hospitals, they're still on the 500000 patient waiting list

mikhail

Deleted User wrote: »

Mate. What are you talking about? Do you think there were no nurses in any hospitals yesterday? Dying? Get real son and lay off the hyperbole.

Christ you are like that person who says why do pharmacists get paid so much? All they do is put labels on bottles.

You don't think there were any dying people in hospital yesterday? Or were you so eager to misread my post that you assumed I meant dying from inattention from the nurses?

wrangler

wrangler wrote: »

Unfortunately all the sick and dying can't get into the hospitals, they're still on the 500000 patient waiting list

So you reckon at any one time that more 10% of the Irish population need to be in hospital?

mikhail

mikhail wrote: »

You don't think there were any dying people in hospital yesterday? Or were you so eager to misread my post that you assumed I meant dying from inattention from the nurses?

I didn't see any decrease in nurse staffing levels on wards yesterday. So I don't see how it makes any difference from any other day in Irish hospitals?

Corruptedmorals

I work in a public hospital and am busy rescheduling bucket loads of patients and sticking them anywhere possible, it's getting harder and harder to do especially as the urgent ones are piling up and tempers all around are badly frayed. Nurses at entry level and the lower ends of the scale absolutely should be paid more for what they do....they are literally unbelievable all that they are responsible for even for nurses outside of inpatient/A&E areas.

I don't agree with raises across the board. Plenty of management (not clinical CNMs) in nursing who are overpaid. Certainly there are a LOT of regular admin at the high grades (NOT patient facing clerical but those several grades above) who are overpaid and underworked. I'd love to see nursing pay rise diverted from these overpaid types in the HSE. Obviously it will never happen as all of them are unionised but pity it can't.

noodler

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

I work in a public hospital and am busy rescheduling bucket loads of patients and sticking them anywhere possible, it's getting harder and harder to do especially as the urgent ones are piling up and tempers all around are badly frayed. Nurses at entry level and the lower ends of the scale absolutely should be paid more for what they do....they are literally unbelievable all that they are responsible for even for nurses outside of inpatient/A&E areas.

I don't agree with raises across the board. Plenty of management (not clinical CNMs) in nursing who are overpaid. Certainly there are a LOT of regular admin at the high grades (NOT patient facing clerical but those several grades above) who are overpaid and underworked. I'd love to see nursing pay rise diverted from these overpaid types in the HSE. Obviously it will never happen as all of them are unionised but pity it can't.

Alot of new entrants are getting an extra 3k or so on top of their increment and PSSA pay rise.

bleary

That's the thing though. The inmo don't care about the young nurses coming in at all.

I was a patient on a ward. We had one student nurse running around doing everything. Including cleaning the toilet. At one stage I told her to go have a cry and come back when she was ready. She had no support from her qualified colleagues at all. She said it was awful and she wanted to leave Irish hospitals as soon as she could. I have a number of friends who left nursing in Ireland. In both cases poor treatment and bullying by older nurses played a large part.

The inmo have threatened to strike if hospitals introduce theatre assistants which happens in many countries and would relieve some staffing issues.
The inmo are doing what unions always do protect the older members and screw the rest.
They want raises for everyone including those with cushy numbers in smaller public hospitals and nursing homes. Nurses in eds and on busy wards deserve more but that won't play with those members.

Goldengirl

noodler wrote: »

I'm disappointed by the lack of analytical thought by, seemingly, the majority of the public.

When did 36k become a bad starting salary?

Nobody is really basing their support on anything other than a general believe that they are underpaid and there is a retention issue when there is vast evidence to the contrary.

What's more, there have been nurse pay rises every year since 2016, and again this year as part of PS deals. Ignoring annual increments.

Just saying they should be paid more because, is serious slippery slope stuff.

The attacks on individual ministers and politicians all over social media is borderline pathetic. You'd swear being a TD or a minister was an 9-5 job, or even being a Minister.

Pay increases the whole public sector gets causing a rabble when they are applied to politicians etc.

Its just disappointing how populism runs rampant over the country when we've been spending like mad the last few years.

Sorry , eh, Leo, starting salary is 30 k .
And noone is saying tds or ministers work 9 to 5 , but the skiing in Davos can hardly be charged to the taxpayer....or can it?

Wheeliebin30

I predict 2021 and the IMF will be back slashing nurses pay by up to 40% again, what do others guess?

Turkeys voting for xmas

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

I predict 2021 and the IMF will be back slashing nurses pay by up to 40% again, what do others guess?

Austerity worked the last time by?

Goldengirl

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

Genuinely Iittle simple for them. They knew what they were getting themselves into both pay and work conditions

Don’t like it leave , simple as

That is exactly the point, nurses ARE leaving!

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I predict 2021 and the IMF will be back slashing nurses pay by up to 40% again, what do others guess?

Turkeys voting for xmas

Get back under the bridge.

astrofool

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Austerity worked the last time by?

By getting our costs in check so we rebounded to the country with the highest growth with full employment restored within a decade of the downturn?

Or by getting angry at all developers, being informed we had built enough houses for the next 3 decades by all the left leaning cheerleaders only to have that blow up in our faces and go back to same developers with all the building skills and getting them to build again?

Which one or both, or neither?

Tell me how

Goldengirl wrote: »

That is exactly the point, nurses ARE leaving!

Repost from yesterday.

Here is an interesting article about nursing levels from 2004

Motivations on choosing to do Nursing Article

Although the demand for training has increased, 70 per cent of nurses leave Ireland within two years of qualifying, writes Fiona Tyrrell.

A degree in nursing is seen as a "passport to travel" by students, according to Irish Nurses' Organisation (INO) general secretary Liam Doran. He says the increased demand for nursing places has been prompted in part by the higher profile afforded to the profession by the new nursing degree courses and inclusion in the CAO system.

The demand for the new courses, established in 2002, continues to rise, and the points required (between 360 and 400) are greater than that for an arts degree.

More nurses are being trained in Ireland than ever before, with a 90 per cent increase in the number of trainees in the past five years. Last September, 1,740 started their nursing degree, compared with 900 in 1998.

That would indicate, in the eyes of the then INMO secretary, that many nursing applicants specifically choose nursing because it would facilitate them getting to travel.

Nurses holding up banners abroad saying "give us a reason to come home" should have a think about the reason they selected nursing when filling out their CAO.

Wheeliebin30

Miike wrote: »

Get back under the bridge.

Cool so you obviously didn’t feel the hit of the last austerity.

Let’s go again, same mistakes again and scratching our heads in 3 years time.

Miike

Tell me how wrote: »

Repost from yesterday.

You're citing an article from 2004 that still refers to intellectual disability nursing as mental handicap nursing and trying to make it relevant to today.

In the last 12 months alone nursing education and standards have changed dramatically but how would arm chair experts know that? In 2004 the system was nothing similar to what it is today bar the fact they still call them nurses when they graduate. We churn out some of the best trained clinicians in the world and the attitude of people here is "ah let them feck off to Australia if they've notions of more money!" and also "jaysus isnt it awful the hse is useless and the standard of care is terrible".

The real problem here is that people have an opinion on a topic that they haven't the foggiest notion about but believe with conviction that they are experts.

Goldengirl

Lillyfae wrote: »

It's unbelievable. I was just listening to a podcast this morning, from before the strike, a woman whose father was in hospital was supporting the striking nurses. She said that whilst in hospital, he had had an accident resulting in surgery, but that the nurses were angels and deserved everything and more- that the care he was getting was second to none. I thought, literally, it's second to none- second to no care at all, negligence. I would be suing the hospital!

There certainly should be nurses of varying degrees of qualification but specialization should be done on a necessity basis. It seems to me that any nurse can train for management and then are paid as such because they have that qualification. Of course we need more nurses on the wards, more than we need the salary to be higher. I don't think there was ever a need for standard nursing to require a degree, and to be honest, I'd feel the same about teaching.

People aren't becoming nurses because they care about anyone. It's an in demand skill with guaranteed employment, and ample opportunity to work abroad- once everyone wakes up to that fact we'll be alot better off.

This is all over the place!
According to this post, nurses would be better if they were caring, less educated, didn't ask for more money and took the 'ample opportunity to work abroad '??
Teachers too ! How exactly does that solve the staffing crisis?
Nurses do not get paid for every course they do, only the qualifications they are using to look after their patients.And that is capped at two major awards.
Nurses' don't get paid 'for management' , if they apply for a manager's job they are encouraged to have it or be in training for it. A ,it of nurses do courses on their own time and wages because they want to give the best care to their patients, and of course be eligible for promotion, because it's the only way to get a decent salary. Same with teachers I would imagine. Only a troglodyte would want to go back to the old days.

hatrickpatrick

noodler wrote: »

When did 36k become a bad starting salary?

When average annual rents of €19,400 became the norm.

https://www.thejournal.ie/rental-prices-income-4390977-Dec2018/

Wheeliebin30

Goldengirl wrote: »

That is exactly the point, nurses ARE leaving!

After creaming the tax payers for 100k in education fees.

Probably always wanted to work in oz regardless of the pay here.

Wheeliebin30

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

When average annual rents of €19,400 became the norm.

https://www.thejournal.ie/rental-prices-income-4390977-Dec2018/

What if a nurse has a partner then obviously the rant isn’t as bad?

A single nurse could rent a room for 500 a month.

Around 7k a year.

Not too much if your pay is 30k a year.

Goldengirl

Olivia Munns Bum wrote: »

Nursing should be a FETAC level 6 diploma imo,
then they wouldn't have these notions above their station.

What screams at me listening to nurses and commentators the last few days is that it's not a pay rise they need, it's a big improvement in work practices & working conditions.
Thats for the HSE management to sort out.. so that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Fetac level 6 ? That would be a healthcare assistant. Good luck with that.
General nursing prior to Project 2000 was a three year half college half apprenticeship training. Nursing had been a three year course since the 1970s . Before that it was Two years and they had to do a year to be a midwife as well. Think it might have been a year in the 1920s and 30s .So you want nurse training to go back to early twentieth century?

hatrickpatrick

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What if a nurse has a partner then obviously the rant isn’t as bad?

So should we discriminate pay based on whether someone is in a relationship or not?

A single nurse could rent a room for 500 a month.

Around 7k a year.

Not too much if your pay is 30k a year.

A single nurse is 100% not going to rent a room for €500 a month anywhere near Dublin.

hawkelady

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

After creaming the tax payers for 100k in education fees.

Probably always wanted to work in oz regardless of the pay here.

What a bitter , bitter post .... amazing me how sour that comes across.
Let’s hope the nurses leave you a while when , one day , you are laying in a ward in need of pain relief. You might reflect on your words while you wait on those nurses to give you the pills

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So should we discriminate pay based on whether someone is in a relationship or not?



A single nurse is 100% not going to rent a room for €500 a month anywhere near Dublin.

I pay 550 for a double bedroom in Dublin city centre.

Goldengirl

noodler wrote: »

Scary some people don't consider 57k a good salary.

Its only an average too, not like nurses can't get promoted or will continue to get wage increases under the PSSA.

Some people also don't seem to understand how good a public sector pension is. How much it would cost in the private sector to accumulate and the benefit of having a DB in this day and age.

If you read the thread it has been said numerous times that average nurse pay is not 57k. Nurses have not accepted the recent PSSA because it does not address the staff retention problem .
Also there are only a certain amount of promotional jobs around, and less so around the country.

Goldengirl

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

After creaming the tax payers for 100k in education fees.

Probably always wanted to work in oz regardless of the pay here.

What are you talking about ? Student nurses only get maintenance while on placement and pay fees like everyone else unless they are eligible for a grant.
Fourth year nurses get paid , badly, for working full time and are counted in staff numbers.

Goldengirl

hawkelady wrote: »

What a bitter , bitter post .... amazing me how sour that comes across.
Let’s hope the nurses leave you a while when , one day , you are laying in a ward in need of pain relief. You might reflect on your words while you wait on those nurses to give you the pills

Yes but no nurse would do that. And he is making his sour post anonymously.

Tell me how

Miike wrote: »

You're citing an article from 2004 that still refers to intellectual disability nursing as mental handicap nursing and trying to make it relevant to today.

In the last 12 months alone nursing education and standards have changed dramatically but how would arm chair experts know that? In 2004 the system was nothing similar to what it is today bar the fact they still call them nurses when they graduate. We churn out some of the best trained clinicians in the world and the attitude of people here is "ah let them feck off to Australia if they've notions of more money!" and also "jaysus isnt it awful the hse is useless and the standard of care is terrible".

The real problem here is that people have an opinion on a topic that they haven't the foggiest notion about but believe with conviction that they are experts.

You are wilfully choosing to ignore the fact that it seems that by the INMO's own take on it that many were going in to nursing because of the opportunity it afforded them to travel.

Why do you think it is less relevant in the intervening period? Particularly after the crash in 2008 when the numbers looking to travel with a skillset would have increased.

On your last point, would you like all those who disagree with the 12% claim to leave the thread so the experts can stay and discuss and then come to the opinion that the pay raise is warranted and everyone agrees with them?

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

No, I think people generally work hard but often inefficiently or ineffectively.


The Health Service is full of vested interest who support change in theory but oppose it in practice. Each union (not confined to Nursing by any means) is out for its own members (how can we benefit from this and avoid any inconvenience for our own?). In the past, groups have pocketed any increase going while being obstructive to change in practice.


The total amount of money we pour into our Health Service relative to the quality of service delivered is a disgrace - any, with an aging population in the years ahead, unsustainable.


Radical reform should come first - then by all means look at wages, salaries and allowances.

I can't believe you would attribute that to nursing. Nurses are to the fore in ensuring the best care for their patients . Lack of beds and theatre space is outside our control and can only be fixed by better staffing levels. Which is what we are looking for. We have never obstructed change and even that pay commission accepted that nurses productivity, ie working unpaid extra hours , was what was saving the health service.

Goldengirl

salonfire wrote: »

The 2 billion referred to that we are supposed to be outraged about is the build project.

Pay rises will surpass that amount and more after just 7 years.

But potentially increasing productivity and good working conditions, so worth it

Goldengirl

salonfire wrote: »

They are well rewarded.

They are in line for further agreed increases.

Not.