Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

noodler

Goldengirl wrote: »

If you read the thread it has been said numerous times that average nurse pay is not 57k. Nurses have not accepted the recent PSSA because it does not address the staff retention problem .
Also there are only a certain amount of promotional jobs around, and less so around the country.

I've read nothing of the sort.

Some people don't want to accept allowances but tis sourced from the people who actually pay the salaries.

Goldengirl

mariaalice wrote: »

Aside from bitter posts its the sheer illogicality of some of it, the poster will want top class care for their child, parents, family members top class midwifery for themselves or their partner but still say F..them.

Yes, " when I was in Melbourne/ Toronto/ Chicago the nursing care was so much better" brigade...Nurses in those countries are paid vastly better, their qualifications are recognised and respected, and , crucially, staff patient ratios are two to three times better than in Ireland.

noodler

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So should we discriminate pay based on whether someone is in a relationship or not?



A single nurse is 100% not going to rent a room for €500 a month anywhere near Dublin.

Why?

Its absolutely possible, you'll get a nice double on for 650-700 too.

Wheeliebin30

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So should we discriminate pay based on whether someone is in a relationship or not?



A single nurse is 100% not going to rent a room for €500 a month anywhere near Dublin.

Well don’t start saying a nurse has to pay the average rent of 1300 a month.

It’s complete fabrication.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

You are wilfully choosing to ignore the fact that it seems that by the INMO's own take on it that many were going in to nursing because of the opportunity it afforded them to travel.

Lots of jobs give you the ability to travel.
Teaching, engineering, languages, business.

Funny how none of these have had a decade of severe staff shortages at every level across the entire country.

Almost as if travel may only be a small factor in staff shortages, compared to the larger elements people are quick to ignore, namely cripplingly bad conditions, poor pay compared to the work done, severe stress, long hours, alternating weeks of day and night shifts and the plethora of reasons given on this thread.

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well don’t start saying a nurse has to pay the average rent of 1300 a month.

It’s complete fabrication.

So it's ok for you to fabricate number out your arse, (like the 100k education) but no one else can do it.. :rolleyes:

Wheeliebin30

hawkelady wrote: »

What a bitter , bitter post .... amazing me how sour that comes across.
Let’s hope the nurses leave you a while when , one day , you are laying in a ward in need of pain relief. You might reflect on your words while you wait on those nurses to give you the pills

Like a lot of jobs in this country I’m thankful people do and they get paid for.

That’s life.

Why do they deserve more treatment than the Garda and fire brigade?

Or people who fix the broken machines in hospital?????

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Lots of jobs give you the ability to travel.
Teaching, engineering, languages, business.

Funny how none of these have had a decade of severe staff shortages at every level across the entire country.

Almost as if travel may only be a small factor in staff shortages, compared to the larger elements people are quick to ignore, namely cripplingly bad conditions, poor pay compared to the work done, severe stress, long hours, alternating weeks of day and night shifts and the plethora of reasons given on this thread.

All of the above I can relate to been self employed.

Who’s gonna come rescue me???

Miike

Tell me how wrote: »

You are wilfully choosing to ignore the fact that it seems that by the INMO's own take on it that many were going in to nursing because of the opportunity it afforded them to travel.

I choose to ignore it when it's 15 years old, yes. When it was published on the turn of the nursing degree program from a 'vocation' and 4 years after P2000. So yes, undoubtedly I willfully choose to ignore it. If you're so dead set on the INMO being right, how come you don't support them saying nurses are underpaid currently? Is it because it doesn't suit your current rhetoric?

Also,
Are you positing that an article wrote when the current iteration of standard applicant 1st year nurses were 2 or 3 years old holds water and represents them as of today? :eek:

Tell me how wrote: »

On your last point, would you like all those who disagree with the 12% claim to leave the thread so the experts can stay and discuss and then come to the opinion that the pay raise is warranted and everyone agrees with them?

No, I would like people to educate them selves on a topic before they try to pass comment on it and appear informed while doing so.

I'm entirely open to logical debate but at least make the effort to have a cursory understanding on the material before you engage in debate on it.

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Lots of jobs give you the ability to travel.
Teaching, engineering, languages, business.

Funny how none of these have had a decade of severe staff shortages at every level across the entire country.

Almost as if travel may only be a small factor in staff shortages, compared to the larger elements people are quick to ignore, namely cripplingly bad conditions, poor pay compared to the work done, severe stress, long hours, alternating weeks of day and night shifts and the plethora of reasons given on this thread.



So it's ok for you to fabricate number out your arse, (like the 100k education) but no one else can do it.. :rolleyes:

5 year degree.

How much do you think it costs per person normally without been subsidized.

I’ll give you a hint, think America.

Goldengirl

salonfire wrote: »

Nobody is arguing against improving the work conditions.

Pay rises does not equate to better work conditions.

Maybe not in some jobs that have difficulty attracting people to the profession. Nursing is an interesting satisfying job, if the conditions are right , which in some countries they are.
Not here though because it is retention that is the issue , so the main working condition nurses complain about is being understaffed and having to work extra long stressful shifts because of that understaffing. Are you not keeping up with this debate? Noone is complaining about the heating or the size of their desk here!

Twenty Grand

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

All of the above I can relate to been self employed.

Who’s gonna come rescue me???

Well you can only blame yourself for that then surely?

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

5 year degree.

How much do you think it costs per person normally without been subsidized.

I’ll give you a hint, think America.

Why don't you tell me, and provide a link to back it up? Otherwise you're talking out your arse.

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Well you can only blame yourself for that then surely?

Well the nurses can only blame themselves for entering into a profession they knew everything about including pay conditions?

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

5 year degree.

How much do you think it costs per person normally without been subsidized.

I’ll give you a hint, think America.

So your problem is with the Free Fees initiative but the nurses are the problem. Fúckin nurses at it again :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Wheeliebin30

Miike wrote: »

So your problem is with the Free Fees initiative but the nurses are the problem. Fúckin nurses at it again :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Nurses are completing degrees here at the expense of the tax payer and swanning off to oz and New Zealand.

They should be made stay for a few years and give back to the tax payer.

Goldengirl

noodler wrote: »

Alot of new entrants are getting an extra 3k or so on top of their increment and PSSA pay rise.

No. Pay restoration for new entrants, not pay rise.

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Nurses are completing degrees here at the expense of the tax payer and swanning off to oz and New Zealand.

They should be made stay for a few years and give back to the tax payer.

So is every other graduate under the free fees initiative. Do you understand the system operated in this country, at all?

Wheeliebin30

Miike wrote: »

So is every other graduate under the free fees initiative. Do you understand the system operated in this country, at all?

And I think it’s time for change, don’t you?



http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2016/07/18/paying-the-price-for-free-education/

Twenty Grand

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well the nurses can only blame themselves for entering into a profession they knew everything about including pay conditions?

And how in your eyes does the government solve the problem of a nursing shortage with that kind of attitude?

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Nurses are completing degrees here at the expense of the tax payer and swanning off to oz and New Zealand.

They should be made stay for a few years and give back to the tax payer.

Never gonna happen. Should we do the same for everyone who get a degree and a trade?

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

And I think it’s time for change, don’t you?



http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2016/07/18/paying-the-price-for-free-education/

Nope. I'm quite happy living in a country of skilled graduates, and not some backwards place like the US where every grad is saddled with huge student debt, which BTW is a huge crisis over there.

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Well you can only blame yourself for that then surely?


Why don't you tell me, and provide a link to back it up? Otherwise you're talking out your arse.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2016/07/18/paying-the-price-for-free-education/

“You might not know much about the HEA. It has three main jobs. It disburses about €1 billion in funding to the higher education institutions of this State”

bcklschaps

Back in the day Civil servants (including Members of Parliament/Ministers etc.) were very well looked after (Salary + extras) in Ireland compared to Civil Servants in other countries...is that no longer the case ?

I think the example of Nurses going to the Middle East or Austrailia for big salaries etc. is fallacious....these are private sector contracts and do not come wth the host of extras that working for the Irish state gives. If I am a Civil Engineer working for the state here I do NOT expect the same Salary as I would if I was working in an Austrailian Lithium Mine.

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

And how in your eyes does the government solve the problem of a nursing shortage with that kind of attitude?



Never gonna happen. Should we do the same for everyone who get a degree and a trade?

We jave the highest nurses ratio in the OECD.

Yes I know crazy for me to suggest that.

But it’s true, if you want a link I’ll give it.

Twenty Grand

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2016/07/18/paying-the-price-for-free-education/

“You might not know much about the HEA. It has three main jobs. It disburses about €1 billion in funding to the higher education institutions of this State”

I know a lot about it. How much does it cost to train a nurse in Ireland?

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

We jave the highest nurses ratio in the OECD.

Yes I know crazy for me to suggest that.

But it’s true, if you want a link I’ll give it.

Is that a link to the OECD report that's bollocks?

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

And how in your eyes does the government solve the problem of a nursing shortage with that kind of attitude?



Never gonna happen. Should we do the same for everyone who get a degree and a trade?




Nope. I'm quite happy living in a country of skilled graduates, and not some backwards place like the US where every grad is saddled with huge student debt, which BTW is a huge crisis over there.

So we should subsidize nurses training then once they finish they get to fly off into the sun???

jay0109

Goldengirl wrote: »

No. Pay restoration for new entrants, not pay rise.

Ah, Pay Restoration. Back to 2008 when the country went bankrupt and had to be bailed out.
The good old days

Twenty Grand

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So we should subsidize nurses training then once they finish they get to fly off into the sun???

Should we stop subsidizing everyones education on the off-chance they leave?
From creche upwards?

Inspector Coptoor

jay0109 wrote: »

Ah, Pay Restoration. Back to 2008 when the country went bankrupt and had to be bailed out.
The good old days

Which had NOTHING to do with nurses or other public sector workers and all to do with bankers and politicians and regulators who let them lend €9 for every €1 on deposit and then let them just make up figures on a screen.

wrangler

jay0109 wrote: »

Ah, Pay Restoration. Back to 2008 when the country went bankrupt and had to be bailed out.
The good old days

Shure we might as well try bankrupt it again, put future generations into even more debt, we owe it to our children

Goldengirl

Tell me how wrote: »

Repost from yesterday.

Of course it is one of the reasons , duh...why would they want to spend the best years of their lives here in the rain, with yellowpack pay and conditions when they can be surfing in Bondi, and working with a 1 to 4 maximum staff patient ratio!
But normally people return after a year or two, with a dunton, a great outlook and buckets of valuable experience. But not in the last 10 years. They are staying there and settling.
So the cyclical refreshing of new returnees is not happening, and we are all getting more stressed and burnt out here. Hence senior staff nurses ,leaving early, either on early retirement ( the lucky ones) or with injuries , or just leaving full stop.

Miike

jay0109 wrote: »

Ah, Pay Restoration. Back to 2008 when the country went bankrupt and had to be bailed out.
The good old days

Reversing austerity measures introduced under FEMPI. I think it's important the correct terminology is used to describe these "pay increases" people are on about.

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

We jave the highest nurses ratio in the OECD.

Yes I know crazy for me to suggest that.

But it’s true, if you want a link I’ll give it.

I'd love if you would.

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

And I think it’s time for change, don’t you?
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2016/07/18/paying-the-price-for-free-education/

Reiterating this:

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Nope. I'm quite happy living in a country of skilled graduates, and not some backwards place like the US where every grad is saddled with huge student debt, which BTW is a huge crisis over there.

iamwhoiam

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So we should subsidize nurses training then once they finish they get to fly off into the sun???

So we better hold on to every other graduate who pisses off too and shackle them to the desks until they cough up the fees ? I don't think you really understand the system

wrangler

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Which had NOTHING to do with nurses or other public sector workers and all to do with bankers and politicians and regulators who let them lend €9 for every €1 on deposit and then let them just make up figures on a screen.

But but but the supposed regulators were paid civil servants......the secrets in the name ''Public service''

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

I can't believe you would attribute that to nursing. Nurses are to the fore in ensuring the best care for their patients . Lack of beds and theatre space is outside our control and can only be fixed by better staffing levels. Which is what we are looking for. We have never obstructed change and even that pay commission accepted that nurses productivity, ie working unpaid extra hours , was what was saving the health service.

What did I attribute to Nurses specifically ? We have one of the most costly public health services in the OECD but far from one of the best. In addition, many people pay for costly private health insurance because they cannot rely on the public system, which they already pay for. Now we are being asked to pay more.



Individuals may work hard but our public health service is too costly and not fit for purpose - it is grossly inefficient and often ineffective. I am not suggesting that nurses bear sole, or even primarily, responsibility for this. All groups play their part, whether clinical or non-clinical, from top to bottom. And each will say "its not us -we don't have control".



But the unions, including the nursing unions, have been and are major obstacles to change. Pouring more money into an unreformed service will achieve nothing interms of improvement.Let there be reform first without preconditions (what's in it for us?) and then look at wages, allowances,etc.

mikeym

I work in a job that has massive retention issues that arent being addressed, so I sympathise with the nurses.

jay0109

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Which had NOTHING to do with nurses or other public sector workers and all to do with bankers and politicians and regulators who let them lend €9 for every €1 on deposit and then let them just make up figures on a screen.

Wrong. So wrong.

The banks went belly up and required a 60bn bail out.
Meanwhile there was also a huge hole in the public finances that required a similar bail out as the tax revenues had dried up. The Govt had to keep paying Teachers, Nurses etc despite the fall off in revenue. And that despite some pay and pension cuts

Wanderer78

wrangler wrote:

Shure we might as well try bankrupt it again, put future generations into even more debt, we owe it to our children

Again, public debt didn't cause the crash, it was the rapid rise of private debt caused by the creation of credit out of thin air by financial institutions, it was in fact these same institutions that went bankrupt during the crash, and the rest is history

jay0109

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, public debt didn't cause the crash, it was the rapid rise of private debt caused by the creation of credit out of thin air by financial institutions, it was in fact these same institutions that went bankrupt during the crash, and the rest is history

Economic revisionism is strong on the PS/CS side of the house

Goldengirl

noodler wrote: »

I've read nothing of the sort.

Some people don't want to accept allowances but tis sourced from the people who actually pay the salaries.

Well if you can't read the thread I'm not going to direct you to the various posts. Are you a child that you have to be spoonfed?
I don't know what you are talking about because it doesn't make sense really. I am happy to accept allowances, if I work the antisocial hours that earn those allowances.I don't accept them as basic salary however so that rules that out. Nowhere do they publish extra premia for physios or pharmacists as part of their salary, and rightly so , because some work nights and weekends, others may not , or may work a different amount or may have differing qualifications.
Who are these "people who pay the salaries" ? Is it in their interest to give accurate pay scales or misleading averages that include premia payments that only confuse the issue of what nurses get paid ?
Nurses payscales are public knowledge and are far from what those figures say . I would direct you to the post earlier in the thread that gives all the figures. But you are too lazy to read the thread to find the posts , and are happy to just make spurious statements. Come back to the debate when you have facts.

Goldengirl

bcklschaps wrote: »

Back in the day Civil servants (including Members of Parliament/Ministers etc.) were very well looked after (Salary + extras) in Ireland compared to Civil Servants in other countries...is that no longer the case ?

I think the example of Nurses going to the Middle East or Austrailia for big salaries etc. is fallacious....these are private sector contracts and do not come wth the host of extras that working for the Irish state gives. If I am a Civil Engineer working for the state here I do NOT expect the same Salary as I would if I was working in an Austrailian Lithium Mine.

No , but you will get credited for your qualification and experience when you come to pension age and will get added years for that, which we do not .Worth about 4 years at least , isn't it?
But that is what your union fought for , so good luck to you then. But don't be bashing others looking for their rights.

Goldengirl

jay0109 wrote: »

Economic revisionism is strong on the PS/CS side of the house

The only reason public/ civil service pay was an issue is because the ECB and IMF made it so, as the only way the bankers could have their cake and eat it. Nurses did not contribute to the crash.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, public debt didn't cause the crash, it was the rapid rise of private debt caused by the creation of credit out of thin air by financial institutions, it was in fact these same institutions that went bankrupt during the crash, and the rest is history

And billions and billions of that "credit out of thin air" went into the public purse during the boom.

Benchmarking, social welfare increases, all those new motorways etc etc etc

hawkelady

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

And billions and billions of that "credit out of thin air" went into the public purse during the boom.

Benchmarking, social welfare increases, all those new motorways etc etc etc

Another pathetic comment !!! In your view then , if Ireland stayed in the bloody 1940s we’d be alright !
You’re literally giving out cause we upgraded our infrastructure...

jay0109

Goldengirl wrote: »

The only reason public/ civil service pay was an issue is because the ECB and IMF made it so, as the only way the bankers could have their cake and eat it. Nurses did not contribute to the crash.

Basic economics- the Govt has to pay out X in wages each year but only took in Y.
That is why it was an issue...the Govt didn't have the money to pay it's employees and required a bailout for that. The ECB and IMF said they'd cover the gap with loans but cuts had to be made to what were some of the highest paid Civil Servants on the planet.

This is not new news. This is well known to everyone and anyone who follows political and economic issues with even the most basic level of interest

Twenty Grand

jay0109 wrote: »

Basic economics- the Govt has to pay out X in wages each year but only took in Y.
That is why it was an issue...the Govt didn't have the money to pay it's employees and required a bailout for that. The ECB and IMF said they'd cover the gap with loans but cuts had to be made to what were some of the highest paid Civil Servants on the planet.

This is not new news. This is well known to everyone and anyone who follows political and economic issues with even the most basic level of interest

Basic business. If you want the best you need to pay for it.
If your competitors (non Irish hospitals) have better conditions or pay or lifestyle you need to offer something to attract the best staff.

It's not like there's thousands of people queueing up to work in Irish hospitals.

Miike

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Basic business. If you want the best you need to pay for it.
If your competitors (non Irish hospitals) have better conditions or pay or lifestyle you need to offer something to attract the best staff.

It's not like there's thousands of people queueing up to work in Irish hospitals.

and nurse graduates from this country are being hunted by international competitors both public and private. We have one of the highest standards of Nurse Education on the planet and the cost of that is they will leave for better conditions being offered. Irish nurses are in high demand.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

I am happy to accept allowances, if I work the antisocial hours that earn those allowances.I don't accept them as basic salary however so that rules that out.
.

We seem to be having great difficulty establshing what the average annual wage paid in nursing actually is.



You and others dismiss a figure of €57K that has been quoted by the DPER. Yet you only refer to basic pay scales, which do not tell us what average total pay is after allowances and premia, and which includes all grades -CNM, CNS, Nursing Director, etc. The anti-social hours may not suit you but they do suit some and will be coveted by others.


According to the HSE the average staff nurse/midwife earns over €11000 per year in allowances - and they should know (if anyone knows anything in the HSE). Now perhaps you will dispute the accuracy of this figure, but whatever the actual figure is, I think most people will consider it relevant.

Twenty Grand

Of someone asked me what I earned, I'd state the figure on my contract. I wouldnt add in my bonus, my overtime, my employers pension contributions and my expenses and any other cash I earn on the side during the year.
When my pay is being reviewed, the only figure thats used is trying number on my contract.

1641 wrote: »

You and others dismiss a figure of €57K .

Can you do me a favour and show me where that figure is? I've read the report and can't find 57k.

Miike

1641 wrote: »

We seem to be having great difficulty establshing what the average annual wage paid in nursing actually is.



You and others dismiss a figure of €57K that has been quoted by the DPER. Yet you only refer to basic pay scales, which do not tell us what average total pay is after allowances and premia, and which includes all grades -CNM, CNS, Nursing Director, etc. The anti-social hours may not suit you but they do suit some and will be coveted by others.


According to the HSE the average staff nurse/midwife earns over €11000 per year in allowances - and they should know (if anyone knows anything in the HSE). Now perhaps you will dispute the accuracy of this figure, but whatever the actual figure is, I think most people will consider it relevant.

Because it's a like-for-like comparison to compare basic to basic.
I can honestly say I don't know a single nurse or CNS earning 57k otherwise I wouldn't dispute the figure.

Also if I was to calculate your average wage and include all the senior level staff above you in that average, would you say it's a fair representation of what people on your level earn?

cameramonkey

Ipso wrote: »

How much extra tax are you willing to pay for their rise?

How much does the incompetence of the childrens hospital cost, The lesson is money can be found if it is needed for overpriced hospitals or overpriced politician. FG dont want to pay the nurse because they don't really value them the same way the value themselves and their friends.

jay0109

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Basic business. If you want the best you need to pay for it.
If your competitors (non Irish hospitals) have better conditions or pay or lifestyle you need to offer something to attract the best staff.

It's not like there's thousands of people queueing up to work in Irish hospitals.

Ah ok, so we're moving away from the economics angle now. And on to having the 'best' and paying top dollar for them.

How do we get better conditions to make nurses happy:
Stop letting Unions and outdated work practices from the 20th century dictate today's 21st century health service?
Introduce more flexibility into day to day working and rostering etc?
Tackle sick days?
Allow for the firing of the inept, the lazy and those not up to the job?