Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

1641

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe we can implement wealth capturing mechanisms such as sovereign wealth funds and land value taxes etc?

very few individuals pay no taxes in this country, including the unemployed,
theres effectively no such thing as free water, free housing and other free public services.

Maybe we should just invite Maduro over to advise on how to implement his "economics" here? He is likely to be out of a job (and a country) shortly anyway.

Wanderer78

1641 wrote: »

Maybe we should just invite Maduro over to advise on how to implement his "economics" here? He is likely to be out of a job (and a country) shortly anyway.

no thanks, theres plenty of intelligent people here that potentially have some good ideas to move us forward, sadly our political class have little or no interest in these opinions though, leading me to believe, very little is gonna change here in the short to possibly medium term

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

no thanks, theres plenty of intelligent people here that potentially have some good ideas to move us forward, sadly our political class have little or no interest in these opinions though, leading me to believe, very little is gonna change here in the short to possibly medium term

Which country do you think Ireland should follow?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

..............
theres effectively no such thing as free water, free housing and other free public services.

It's largely free to those receiving it...........
If you are on the scratch and paying €30/week out of your dole for living where you live than it's free to you.......... so too all of the public services availed off, medical card etc etc

Wanderer78

salonfire wrote: »

Which country do you think Ireland should follow?

why not forge our own direction and identity, we have the people and the intelligence to do this, but of course we can use approaches and ideas from other nations also, do we always have to be following others?

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

It's largely free to those receiving it...........
If you are on the scratch and paying €30/week out of your dole for living where you live than it's free to you.

largely free, isnt exactly the same as free, then of course there are taxes such as consumption taxes etc, which most, if not all pay, including the unemployed. again, why is housing and accommodation so expensive?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

largely free, isnt exactly the same as free, then of course there are taxes such as consumption taxes etc, which most, if not all pay, including the unemployed. again, why is housing and accommodation so expensive?

OK, for someone who has never worked or just worked for a year or three. Who then ends up longterm unemployed and is housed by the state and given social welfare payments.................... they are living for free.

Housing and accommodation being expensive has nothing to do with it being free or not. In the recession housing was cheap, folk on the scratch who never worked anyway were still in free to them accommodation.

I used the term largely as some fncktards might argue that the state recieve money back off these folk in the form of VAT etc from their purchases (consumption charges as you said). They are a gross and net cost though so are living for free (to them).

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

OK, for someone who has never worked or just worked for a year or three. Who then ends up longterm unemployed and is housed by the state and given social welfare payments.................... they are living for free.

Housing and accommodation being expensive has nothing to do with it being free or not. In the recession housing was cheap, folk on the scratch who never worked anyway were still in free to them accommodation.

I used the term largely as some fncktards might argue that the state recieve money back off these folk in the form of VAT etc from their purchases (consumption charges as you said). They are a gross and net cost though so are living for free (to them).

again, the overall question is, why is housing and accommodation so expensive, to the point, many workers are struggling to afford it?

again, the term 'free', isnt exactly what it means upon debate!

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, the overall question is, why is housing and accommodation so expensive,.............

No, that's not the overall question.
That's just the latest tangent you are going off on as part of your looney left speel

However, supply and demand in the answer.
A few short years ago there was loads of supply and no demand.
Now it's the opposite.
There are plenty of reasonably priced homes outside of Dublin, I live in one myself.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

........
again, the term 'free', isnt exactly what it means upon debate!

Free is exactly what it means.
You just don't agree someone who isn't working, and won't ever work who is on the scratch and paying €30/week out of their dole for their accommodation is living for free.

Ush1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe we can implement wealth capturing mechanisms such as sovereign wealth funds and land value taxes etc?

very few individuals pay no taxes in this country, including the unemployed,
theres effectively no such thing as free water, free housing and other free public services.

We have one of the narrowest tax bases in the world I believe.

A tiny percentage of the population pay a huge percentage of the tax.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

No, that's not the overall question.
That's just the latest tangent you are going off on as part of your looney left speel

However, supply and demand in the answer.
A few short years ago there was loads of supply and no demand.
Now it's the opposite.
There are plenty of reasonably priced homes outside of Dublin, I live in one myself.



Free is exactly what it means.
You just don't agree someone who isn't working, and won't ever work who is on the scratch and paying €30/week out of their dole for their accommodation is living for free.

....and we re back to this neoclassical rubbish again! our housing demands were well spotted at the height of the crash, our response, lets stop building!

..and you wont accept, very few, if any individual receives free services from the state, as most, if not all pay some form of taxation.

again, why is housing and accommodation so expensive, and what part has, and still does, the financial sector play in this ever rising cost?

Ush1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....and we re back to this neoclassical rubbish again! our housing demands were well spotted at the height of the crash, our response, lets stop building!

There was no demand at the height of the crash. There was very little work, banks weren't lending and all the builders f*cked off to Oz and Canada.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

..and you wont accept, very few, if any individual receives free services from the state, as most, if not all pay some form of taxation.

The services aren't free because the people that generate the tax money pay for it. If you're on the scratch and the government gives you money and it gets some back in the form of VAT for your slab of cans and fags, you aren't a net contributor. You're a net loss to the exchequer.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, why is housing and accommodation so expensive, and what part has, and still does, the financial sector play in this ever rising cost?

Because the economy is doing very well and there is a lack of supply currently of the types of houses in certain places that are in demand. The financial sector is following CBOI lending rules to limit what has happened in the past.

facehugger99

We're still running a deficit and these militant union leaders want to ramp up spending on PS wages and pensions - again!

Is time the silent majority in the private sector that are paying for this call a halt to this before our taxes are used by the Government to buy industrial peace.

Wanderer78

Ush1 wrote: »

There was no demand at the height of the crash. There was very little work, banks weren't lending and all the builders f*cked off to Oz and Canada.



The services aren't free because the people that generate the tax money pay for it. If you're on the scratch and the government gives you money and it gets some back in the form of VAT for your slab of cans and fags, you aren't a net contributor. You're a net loss to the exchequer.



Because the economy is doing very well and there is a lack of supply currently of the types of houses in certain places that are in demand. The financial sector is following CBOI lending rules to limit what has happened in the past.

we really need to move on from all this supply and demand nonsense, the real world doesnt work like this. it was well spotted at the height of the crash by some, via data, that we were gonna run out of houses and accommodation, particularly in the dublin region, our response was to stop building. this was well spotted in advance of our current situation.

....and we re back to the free, not so free thing, again, why is housing and accommodation so expensive? im gonna stick my neck out and say, very few, if any, unemployed person ever played a role in the political and economic meetings that have helped cause this situation! yes i know, its a risky thing to say, but....

jay0109

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we really need to move on from all this supply and demand nonsense, the real world doesnt work like this. it was well spotted at the height of the crash by some, via data, that we were gonna run out of houses and accommodation, particularly in the dublin region, our response was to stop building. this was well spotted in advance of our current situation.

....and we re back to the free, not so free thing, again, why is housing and accommodation so expensive? im gonna stick my neck out and say, very few, if any, unemployed person ever played a role in the political and economic meetings that have helped cause this situation! yes i know, its a risky thing to say, but....

Show me this data?
How was it well known?
Your all about generalisations but lack specifics and examples.

I remember at the time the talk was all about ghost estates, rents falling by huge amounts nationwide as there was a lack of tenants, no credit from the banks to buy the houses that were ready to be lived in, people afraid to take out loans even if they could get them.

Wanderer78

jay0109 wrote: »

Show me this data?
How was it well known?
Your all about generalisations but lack specifics and examples.

I remember at the time the talk was all about ghost estates, rents falling by huge amounts nationwide as there was a lack of tenants, no credit from the banks to buy the houses that were ready to be lived in, people afraid to take out loans even if they could get them.

i dont have the time to dig it out for you, but commentators such as ronan and tom lyons were talking about this at the height of the crash, maybe follow up on their work, both are active on twitter, lyons has a blog.

Ush1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we really need to move on from all this supply and demand nonsense, the real world doesnt work like this. it was well spotted at the height of the crash by some, via data, that we were gonna run out of houses and accommodation, particularly in the dublin region, our response was to stop building. this was well spotted in advance of our current situation.

Who's this our? That is supply and demand at work. People aren't going to build houses for nothing for people who can't afford to buy the houses as banks won't lend them the money. Neither will they lend the builder money to buy land and build the things because nobody can afford them. At the height of the crash we have ghost estates littered around the country.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....and we re back to the free, not so free thing, again, why is housing and accommodation so expensive? im gonna stick my neck out and say, very few, if any, unemployed person ever played a role in the political and economic meetings that have helped cause this situation! yes i know, its a risky thing to say, but....

I just answered this for you. To reiterate, nothing is free.

jay0109

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i dont have the time to dig it out for you, but commentators such as ronan and tom lyons were talking about this at the height of the crash, maybe follow up on their work, both are active on twitter, lyons has a blog.

Your gas

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

............., very few, if any, unemployed person ever played a role in the political and economic meetings that have helped cause this situation! yes i know, its a risky thing to say, but....

What political and economic meetings are you referring to?
Folk on the scratch generally don't even vote, they only got up off their holes to protest about water charges as they were going to have to part with some of their dole payment (free money).

mad muffin

Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

facehugger99

mad muffin wrote: »

Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

How dare he take the side of the hard-pressed tax payers!

Geuze

salonfire wrote: »

I think the only option left to the Government is to tax the bejasus out of us all.. 60%,70%,80%.. When the inevitable protests and objections arise, they can point to the ever demanding spending on free water, free housing and public sector pay demands.

Only that will change the narrative in this country once and for all and soften the 'support' for the looney left spending.

I see your point.

If there is widespread public support for a pay rise for nurses, and if it is awarded, then specific taxes must be increased in the next Budget, or other spending cut.

Make the public mature enough to see that spending decisions have consequences.

Edgware

mad muffin wrote: »

Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

The idea that this clown was actually elected and appointed a Minister is utterly reprehensible. Unless people cop on he will knock 30 years in politics at our expense

mad muffin

facehugger99 wrote: »

How dare he take the side of the hard-pressed tax payers!

You think he’s on the side of the tax payer?

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAAA

Tell me how

mad muffin wrote: »

Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

What's your take on the point that when the public sector pay deal was signed up to by all involved that it stipulated within it that no union would seek to initiate pay demands during the duration of the agreed deal and that should they do so, that penalties would be imposed?

(Please try to answer without saying anything like"well how come we are spending €1B more on the childrens hospital" or anything like that. That is a fiasco, which is only going to get worse I expect but if we use that as an excuse then every public sector union should strike and every private business should look to withhold tax payments to the government)

mad muffin

Tell me how wrote: »

What's your take on the point that when the public sector pay deal was signed up to by all involved that it stipulated within it that no union would seek to initiate pay demands during the duration of the agreed deal and that should they do so, that penalties would be imposed?

(Please try to answer without saying anything like"well how come we are spending €1B more on the childrens hospital" or anything like that. That is a fiasco, which is only going to get worse I expect but if we use that as an excuse then every public sector union should strike and every private business should look to withhold tax payments to the government)

The nurses didn’t get what they were promised it’s simple as that.

Tell me how

mad muffin wrote: »

The nurses didn’t get what they were promised it’s simple as that.

Is it really that simple?

Times article

The INMO has sought pay parity with groups such as physiotherapists and speech and language therapists. They argue that their members are paid about €7,000 a year less than staff in therapy grades but work more hours.

The INMO said nurses and midwives were the lowest-paid graduate professionals in the health service and that they earned thousands of euro less than similarly qualified health professionals, despite having a longer working week.

INMO general secretary Phil Ní Sheaghdha said:”Ireland’s nurses and midwives are speaking with one clear voice. This vote reflects a deep frustration in our professions, which the government cannot continue to ignore.”

“Nurses and midwives simply want to do their jobs and care for patients properly. But low pay has led to staff shortages, compromising safe care

Nothing in that article about promises having been broken.

mad muffin

Tell me how wrote: »

Is it really that simple?

Times article



Nothing in that article about promises having been broken.

It says it right there in the last paragraph…

omega man

I’ve yet to see any proposals on how to fund the demanded pay rise and without other PS follow up claims.

All I’m hearing is just pay them without consideration along with talk about politicians pay or bankers etc etc

Hopefully this will end up in the LC as I don’t see any alternative to a resolution.

Galwayguy35

I see on the news that they are going to escalate the strike to other services on the next day, if they want to piss the rest of the country off they are going the right way about it.

Miike

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I see on the news that they are going to escalate the strike to other services on the next day, if they want to piss the rest of the country off they are going the right way about it.

The Psychiatric nurse strike (PNA) is not an "escalation" - They are striking in their own right. INMO don't represent Psychiatric Nurses in the large.

judeboy101

mad muffin wrote: »

Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

So its ok to use fempi against teachers who strike for equal pay but not against nurses who voted to accept pay inequality but strike for better pay?

Galwayguy35

Miike wrote: »

The Psychiatric nurse strike (PNA) is not an "escalation" - They are striking in their own right. INMO don't represent Psychiatric Nurses in the large.

It is an escalation because it means more patients will be affected.

Miike

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

It is an escalation because it means more patients will be affected.

It's almost like they're trying to highlight something. I wonder what though?

also, it's not an escalation - it's not an intensification of strike action by those who have already striked. It's a different discipline of nursing striking in their own right, this is the first of the PNA strikes.

TheRiverman

facehugger99 wrote: »

How dare he take the side of the hard-pressed tax payers!

His wife is a nurse.I don't know if she is in a private hospital, public hospital or private practise,but I'm sure Simon's €74000 allowances on top of his €94000 basic salary will keep her happy if she feels underpaid.

Spanish Eyes

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

I have no skin in the game, but realistically can anyone blame nurses who have to do a degree now being miffed at not being paid similarly to those who do have degrees like teachers and so on.

I am sure someone will put me right.

If you did your degree + post grad or whatever, you should be paid the same or similar to those who have that 3rd level qualification.

What other professions might be affected does anyone know? Fire fighters, paramedics, prison officers,gardai, who? Not saying they are wrong to look for parity, but do they have to do a four year degree?

TheRiverman

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

I have no skin in the game, but realistically can anyone blame nurses who have to do a degree now being miffed at not being paid similarly to those who do have degrees like teachers and so on.

I am sure someone will put me right.

If you did your degree + post grad or whatever, you should be paid the same or similar to those who have that 3rd level qualification.

What other professions might be affected does anyone know? Fire fighters, paramedics, prison officers,gardai, who? Not saying they are wrong to look for parity, but do they have to do a four year degree?

Very good point.

Tell me how

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

I have no skin in the game, but realistically can anyone blame nurses who have to do a degree now being miffed at not being paid similarly to those who do have degrees like teachers and so on.

I am sure someone will put me right.

If you did your degree + post grad or whatever, you should be paid the same or similar to those who have that 3rd level qualification.

What other professions might be affected does anyone know? Fire fighters, paramedics, prison officers,gardai, who? Not saying they are wrong to look for parity, but do they have to do a four year degree?

Not every degree is the same. A degree in engineering is not necessarily the same as a degree in social studies. Not all engineering degrees are the same for that matter.

Nurses do not have decision making responsibility in the same way as some of the other professions have. They do not diagnose or select treatment options.

They do a critical role but it is a misnomer to suggest that just because it is a degree that it equates to another role in which (I feel) there is generally* more responsibility held by a person in a particular role.

* the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.

Pauliedragon

I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of the nurses situation but I do feel there is a lot of strange information going on. The indo had a story today and the lady saying she earns more than double in Australia just doesn't add up to me. I used to work with a few nurses over there and I was told they earn between 70-80K dollars (some less). Earning double and factoring in exchange rate she 's saying I rish nurses are on less than 24K which is simply not true. They also interviewed a nurse from Abu Dhabi which is also unfair to compare wages as they don't pay tax. If we has vast oil we would all live tax free aswell. As I said I don't know enough about their situation to take sides and if they're being ripped off good luck to them in getting what they deserve but my point is the media should be a lot more careful with what they are reporting as it comes across very biased in this instance and that can have a negative effect on the very cause they seem to be trying to help.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-earn-double-what-i-would-in-ireland-and-its-taxfree-irish-nurses-tell-us-about-the-reality-of-working-abroad-37769213.html

Spanish Eyes

Tell me how wrote: »

Not every degree is the same. A degree in engineering is not necessarily the same as a degree in social studies. Not all engineering degrees are the same for that matter.

Nurses do not have decision making responsibility in the same way as some of the other professions have. They do not diagnose or select treatment options.

They do a critical role but it is a misnomer to suggest that just because it is a degree that it equates to another role in which (I feel) there is generally* more responsibility held by a person in a particular role.

* the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.

I was referring to pay scales for degree professions from the public purse. Where the parity situation becomes an issue.

Outside the PS it is not an issue.

animaal

I see "supply and demand" being used as justification for nursing payrises. I.e. Nurses are leaving the country, so we need to pay more to retain them.

Does this work the other way too? I see recruitment drives massively over-subscribed in other areas. Does this mean we're paying too much in those areas and should reduce pay (or at the very minimum freeze all increases)?

bilbot79

The timing couldn't be worse. Imagine giving nurses a pay raise the day before a Brexit apocalypse. Sure half the problem after the financial crash was having a public service that was overpaid compared to international norms.

They should call it off until after Brexit. Pointless to even attempt it right now.

judeboy101

bilbot79 wrote: »

The timing couldn't be worse. Imagine giving nurses a pay raise the day before a Brexit apocalypse. Sure half the problem after the financial crash was having a public service that was overpaid compared to international norms.

They should call it off until after Brexit. Pointless to even attempt it right now.

Union bosses have to justify the subs paid to the union and their salaries. They have to 'duke of York ' it or members start to question what's the point.

Wanderer78

bilbot79 wrote:

The timing couldn't be worse. Imagine giving nurses a pay raise the day before a Brexit apocalypse. Sure half the problem after the financial crash was having a public service that was overpaid compared to international norms.

Again, what was the actual causes of the crash?

animaal

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, what was the actual causes of the crash?

There were a number of contributory factors.

Bad lending by banks.
Bad borrowing by citizens.
Unsustainable state spending on pay and services
tax base was too narrow.

It's notable that the first two items contributed approx. €60b of the €200b deficit.

mad muffin

Tell me how wrote: »

Not every degree is the same. A degree in engineering is not necessarily the same as a degree in social studies. Not all engineering degrees are the same for that matter.

Nurses do not have decision making responsibility in the same way as some of the other professions have. They do not diagnose or select treatment options.

They do a critical role but it is a misnomer to suggest that just because it is a degree that it equates to another role in which (I feel) there is generally* more responsibility held by a person in a particular role.

* the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.

Are you for real?? You have no god damned clue. None.

If it wasn’t for the nurses that took care of my son immediately after his tonsils operation he would be dead.

The anesthesiologist gave too much to my son and the nurses could tell he wasn’t breathing oroperly or getting enough oxygen post op.

It was their training and decision making that saved him. If not for them he would be dead. We just thought he was sleeping. No doctor came in to see him. Only for the nurses.

There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.

Twenty Grand

animaal wrote: »

I see "supply and demand" being used as justification for nursing payrises. I.e. Nurses are leaving the country, so we need to pay more to retain them.

Does this work the other way too? I see recruitment drives massively over-subscribed in other areas. Does this mean we're paying too much in those areas and should reduce pay (or at the very minimum freeze all increases)?

You could argue that's what happened to the Gardai.
Thousands of applicants. 23k starting I think.

Wanderer78

animaal wrote: »

There were a number of contributory factors.

Bad lending by banks.
Bad borrowing by citizens.
Unsustainable state spending on pay and services
tax base was too narrow.

It's notable that the first two items contributed approx. €60b of the €200b deficit.

maybe deregulation of the financial sector, encouragement by our political institutions to create a building boom etc etc etc

maybe, 'behind every bad borrower, is a bad lender'

again, public debt was actually in decline in the years leading up to the crash

tax base probably was too narrow, but we were also overly reliant on unsustainable revenue streams such as stamp duty etc

how much of our public debt was due to 'accepting' bad loans onto the public balance sheet?

animaal

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, public debt was actually in decline in the years leading up to the crash

tax base probably was too narrow, but we were also overly reliant on unsustainable revenue streams such as stamp duty etc

Agree on the second point.

From the late 1990s, Ireland's revenue increased on the back of a bubble. Ideally, the proceeds of this bubble would have been invested for the inevitable downturn. Some of it was used to reduce debt, which is good. However, spending increased to match this unsustainable income. This was unsustainable. It was a combination of public sector unions demanding a bigger slice of the pie, and a government happy to pay them off in order to retain power.

From 2000-2008, *current* expenditure increased from €22b to €53b.

This graph shows the trends in revenue and spending leading up to the crash. Just as revenue was an unsustainable bubble, so was expenditure.

Attempting to return spending to the levels seen during the bubble is a recipe for disaster.

iamwhoiam

mad muffin wrote: »

Are you for real?? You have no god damned clue. None.

If it wasn’t for the nurses that took care of my son immediately after his tonsils operation he would be dead.

The anesthesiologist gave too much to my son and the nurses could tell he wasn’t breathing oroperly or getting enough oxygen post op.

It was their training and decision making that saved him. If not for them he would be dead. We just thought he was sleeping. No doctor came in to see him. Only for the nurses.

There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.

And this happens multiple times on wards .,The nurses alert to a danger and to the deterioration of a patient , they choose to call for a medic and often have to hassle and poke and prod the medical team to act . They pick up on mistakes made by junior doctors and guide them to something they have missed .
They make decisions daily and give CPR and other life saving acts to save patients on a regular basis .