Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Mocadonna

mad muffin wrote: »

There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.

True - and the ANP scale goes from 56000-70000. Don't make out that they are all on the lower wage, it's disingenuous.

bri007

Garda make a load in overtime, mate of mine is a new recruit and is on a low basic but makes up for it in overtime, and reported himself most days on overtime is just sitting in the station doing some paperwork or attending court.

Twenty Grand wrote: »

You could argue that's what happened to the Gardai.
Thousands of applicants. 23k starting I think.

1641

bri007 wrote: »

Garda make a load in overtime, mate of mine is a new recruit and is on a low basic but makes up for it in overtime, and reported himself most days on overtime is just sitting in the station doing some paperwork or attending court.

Sure - but the nursing reps assert that the overtime, allowances, premiums and other benefits are off limits for consideration.

Twenty Grand

bri007 wrote: »

Garda make a load in overtime, mate of mine is a new recruit and is on a low basic but makes up for it in overtime, and reported himself most days on overtime is just sitting in the station doing some paperwork or attending court.

So you agree that the wages are crap, so your friend has to work twice as long to make up for it.
You may as well say that your friend makes up for it by having a second job.

1641 wrote: »

Sure - but the nursing reps assert that the overtime, allowances, premiums and other benefits are off limits for consideration.

They should be, they're not available to all nurses.
Imagine you didnt get a pay raise because your coworkers overtime brought the average wages up, and people agreed that on average, you were paid enough.

mikhail

mad muffin wrote: »

Are you for real?? You have no god damned clue. None.

If it wasn’t for the nurses that took care of my son immediately after his tonsils operation he would be dead.

The anesthesiologist gave too much to my son and the nurses could tell he wasn’t breathing oroperly or getting enough oxygen post op.

It was their training and decision making that saved him. If not for them he would be dead. We just thought he was sleeping. No doctor came in to see him. Only for the nurses.

There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.

If it weren't for my mother, his nurses would have killed my uncle. They weren't observing him properly and had missed not one but several red flags. I have never seen her so angry. Her opinion of the degrees younger nurses have took a bit of a battering that day.

Twenty Grand

mikhail wrote: »

If it weren't for my mother, his nurses would have killed my uncle. They weren't observing him properly and had missed not one but several red flags. I have never seen her so angry. Her opinion of the degrees younger nurses have took a bit of a battering that day.

Nothing like an anecdote to refute numbers and facts.

Facts > Feelings.

mikhail

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Nothing like an anecdote to refute numbers and facts.

Facts > Feelings.

I was replying to an anecote. :rolleyes: Which facts and figures was I refuting exactly?

I agree with the sentiment, but if you only react to one side of an argument doing it, you should stop pretending to yourself you're doing anything other than cheering on the side you like.

Twenty Grand

mikhail wrote: »

I was replying to an anecote. :rolleyes: Which facts and figures was I refuting exactly?

I agree with the sentiment, but if you only react to one side of an argument doing it, you should stop pretending to yourself you're doing anything other than cheering on the side you like.

Point well taken.

Graces7

iamwhoiam wrote: »

And this happens multiple times on wards .,The nurses alert to a danger and to the deterioration of a patient , they choose to call for a medic and often have to hassle and poke and prod the medical team to act . They pick up on mistakes made by junior doctors and guide them to something they have missed .
They make decisions daily and give CPR and other life saving acts to save patients on a regular basis .

Is that not their job? They are with the patients all the time and closely. Doctors are not on a ward full time as they are.

iamwhoiam

Graces7 wrote: »

Is that not their job? They are with the patients all the time and closely. Doctors are not on a ward full time as they are.

Yes of course its their job , I was replying to someone who said they make no decisions . I never said it wasnt their job

Tell me how

mad muffin wrote: »

Are you for real?? You have no god damned clue. None.

If it wasn’t for the nurses that took care of my son immediately after his tonsils operation he would be dead.

The anesthesiologist gave too much to my son and the nurses could tell he wasn’t breathing oroperly or getting enough oxygen post op.

It was their training and decision making that saved him. If not for them he would be dead. We just thought he was sleeping. No doctor came in to see him. Only for the nurses.

There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.

For the love of god would you ever calm down.

From my last post. Bold added so that maybe you will read it this time.

* the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.

Miike

mad muffin wrote: »

Are you for real?? You have no god damned clue. None.

If it wasn’t for the nurses that took care of my son immediately after his tonsils operation he would be dead.

The anesthesiologist gave too much to my son and the nurses could tell he wasn’t breathing oroperly or getting enough oxygen post op.

It was their training and decision making that saved him. If not for them he would be dead. We just thought he was sleeping. No doctor came in to see him. Only for the nurses.

There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.

Just to tack on to this comment that one of the core aspects of nursing in Ireland is working with autonomy. Just because someones a staff nurse and not ANP doesn't mean they're job is to do as told by "THE doctor". Some of the staff nurses I work with I'd trust over most of the senior reg's with myself or my family every day of the week. This whole "nurses don't make decisions" is pure tripe and reminiscent of vocational nursing.

Twenty Grand

Miike wrote: »

Just to tack on to this comment that one of the core aspects of nursing in Ireland is working with autonomy. Just because someones a staff nurse and not ANP doesn't mean they're job is to do as told by "THE doctor". Some of the staff nurses I work with I'd trust over most of the senior reg's with myself or my family every day of the week. This whole "nurses don't make decisions" is pure tripe and reminiscent of vocational nursing.

Also to note Tell Me How has brought up that point a few times since the start of this thread and been told where to go.

It's just trolling at this point.

TheRiverman

Two more strike days announced and a National rally day on Saturday February 9.
The Government need to engage with the INMO,they have been a disgrace so far,Varadkar with his silly statements when he was out of the country and Harris is out of his depth as Minister For Health.

TheRiverman

TheRiverman wrote: »

Two more strike days announced and a National rally day on Saturday February 9.
The Government need to engage with the INMO,they have been a disgrace so far,Varadkar with his silly statements when he was out of the country and Harris is out of his depth as Minister For Health.

No thanks. I don't want my wallet opened to allow the nurses help themselves.

TheRiverman

salonfire wrote: »

No thanks. I don't want my wallet opened to allow the nurses help themselves.

Don't forget how much it will be opened to fund the out of control new National Children's Hospital.

iamwhoiam

salonfire wrote: »

No thanks. I don't want my wallet opened to allow the nurses help themselves.

But I presume if you got sick you would want quality care from qualified nurses . Because that is what they are demanding too

TheRiverman

TheRiverman wrote: »

Don't forget how much it will be opened to fund the out of control new National Children's Hospital.

Which will last the next 100 years. Annualized, it's far better value than throwing more money in current expenditure.

road_high

iamwhoiam wrote: »

But I presume if you got sick you would want quality care from qualified nurses . Because that is what they are demanding too

Are they not qualified and providing quality care now? I thought these walking saints we have as nurses were brimming with qualifications?

road_high

salonfire wrote: »

Which will last the next 100 years. Annualized, it's far better value than throwing more money in current expenditure.

Right. You increase salary rates for no reason it becomes an even bigger annual burden as increments rise in line. That’s how we walked into a public expenditure nightmare in 2008.

iamwhoiam

road_high wrote: »

Are they not qualified and providing quality care now? I thought these walking saints we have as nurses were brimming with qualifications?

Yes they are but retention of senior staff is a huge problem .So in the future there will be too few nurses to give quality care . I presume you know that ?

road_high

TheRiverman wrote: »

Two more strike days announced and a National rally day on Saturday February 9.
The Government need to engage with the INMO,they have been a disgrace so far,Varadkar with his silly statements when he was out of the country and Harris is out of his depth as Minister For Health.

Why are they a disgrace? Because they won’t open the atm for unwarranted pay demands? Great to see them and hang tight against the union mafia in the interest of the country. God knows what we could be facing fiscally this yesr, we just can’t afford it

road_high

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes they are but retention of senior staff is a huge problem .So in the future there will be too few nurses to give quality care . I presume you know that ?

Other posters have been saying the staff turnover is about average so someone isn’t telling the whole truth.
Plus I was under the impression we have such skilled nurses nowadays that quality care would be a given- are you saying that they are or aren’t giving quality care? If not, then these pay increases aren’t warranted

iamwhoiam

road_high wrote: »

Other posters have been saying the staff turnover is about average so someone isn’t telling the whole truth.
Plus I was under the impression we have such skilled nurses nowadays that quality care would be a given- are you saying that they are or aren’t giving quality care? If not, then these pay increases aren’t warranted

Keep twisting what I said . Yes they are but might not be able to in the future if they can't retain and find skilled staff .
I would have thought that was self explanatory

1641

TheRiverman wrote: »

Two more strike days announced and a National rally day on Saturday February 9.
The Government need to engage with the INMO,they have been a disgrace so far,Varadkar with his silly statements when he was out of the country and Harris is out of his depth as Minister For Health.

The disgrace is the hostage-taking of the sick and needy to extort their demands. Ah well - if they weren't so altruistic thing would be worse, I suppose.

road_high

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Keep twisting what I said . Yes they are but might not be able to in the future if they can't retain and find skilled staff .
I would have thought that was self explanatory

Just increase college though put and train more nurses- not rocket science I’d have thought. But I guess the unions are more interested in cushioning existing nurses and dressing that up as some kind of “way to retain staff”.
We’re already spending more on healthcare than the EU average, but getting a ****e service. Something ain’t adding up here and pouring more petrol on the fire certainly ain’t going to improve the poor service and value we are currently getting.

iamwhoiam

road_high wrote: »

Just increase college though put and train more nurses- not rocket science I’d have thought. But I guess the unions are more interested in cushioning existing nurses and dressing that up as some kind of “way to retain staff”.
We’re already spending more on healthcare than the EU average, but getting a ****e service. Something ain’t adding up here and pouring more petrol on the fire certainly ain’t going to improve the poor service and value we are currently getting.

You have to retain senior staff if you want the junior newly qualified to be as good a nurse as we all deserve . Its the senior nurses who guide and train and pass on experience

Miike

road_high wrote: »

Are they not qualified and providing quality care now? I thought these walking saints we have as nurses were brimming with qualifications?

Nurses are currently providing the best care that they can with the materials they've got. Conditions in some units reach unsafe levels at certain points which can result in substandard care. Agency is being used to fill gap. 5-6% of Mental Health Budget is being used to fill the staffing gap in service by using agency staff in units- there is a huge shortage of staff. Senior and junior.

road_high wrote: »

Right. You increase salary rates for no reason it becomes an even bigger annual burden as increments rise in line. That’s how we walked into a public expenditure nightmare in 2008.

You're a clown and your logic is agony, see point 1.

road_high wrote: »

Other posters have been saying the staff turnover is about average so someone isn’t telling the whole truth.
Plus I was under the impression we have such skilled nurses nowadays that quality care would be a given- are you saying that they are or aren’t giving quality care? If not, then these pay increases aren’t warranted

I refuse to believe this isn't trolling but I'll bite. Would you be happy knowing there's one nurse providing care to 25 people at any given moment - maybe your mother is one of that 25 people, or your sister, or your wife? Would you be happy with that? and, if this one nurse made a mistake (due to burden of time) and subsequently caused harm - Would you be happy with that? or is there no risk a nurse makes mistake because they don't make decisions or provide treatment... they only wipe arses, right?

road_high wrote: »

Just increase college though put and train more nurses- not rocket science I’d have thought. But I guess the unions are more interested in cushioning existing nurses and dressing that up as some kind of “way to retain staff”.
We’re already spending more on healthcare than the EU average, but getting a ****e service. Something ain’t adding up here and pouring more petrol on the fire certainly ain’t going to improve the poor service and value we are currently getting.

Nursing schools are operating at 110% for the last few years in the hope of retaining a larger portion. Hasn't worked, try again.

The only only people struggling to find something isn't adding up is the people who are posting here with zero understanding on the topic - not even a rudimentary understanding of what this is all about. Moreover, they haven't a notion of what day to day running or working on a ward looks like but feel aptly informed to pipe up with the kind of display you're putting on.

Turn off your computer and have a long hard think about the **** you're posting. To say it's ill informed is an insult to the people who have a hope of grasping what the problem actually is.

Galwayguy35

So more strike days on the way then, seems like pay rises are more important than doing the job they signed up for which is looking after sick people.

1641

iamwhoiam wrote: »

You have to retain senior staff if you want the junior newly qualified to be as good a nurse as we all deserve . Its the senior nurses who guide and train and pass on experience

Would that be the CNMs and CNSs and other specialist and senior grades? What is the evidence that they are leaving in numbers? What are their salary scales? Did not the management side offer to address specific niche areas while the INMO are demanding an accross the board increase of 12% ?

iamwhoiam

1641 wrote: »

Would that be the CNMs and CNSs and other specialist and senior grades??

And senior staff nurses on the wards .

Miike

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So more strike days on the way then, seems like pay rises are more important than doing the job they signed up for which is looking after sick people.

Minimum staffing levels are being provided on wards and units. Elective and non-life threatening procedures will be cancelled.

However in the interest of discussion have a read of THIS and come back with what you think this represents, in the large, for Irish hospitals?

road_high

Miike wrote: »

Nurses are currently providing the best care that they can with the materials they've got. Conditions in some units reach unsafe levels at certain points which can result in substandard care. Agency is being used to fill gap. 5-6% of Mental Health Budget is being used to fill the staffing gap in service by using agency staff in units- there is a huge shortage of staff. Senior and junior.



You're a clown and your logic is agony, see point 1.



I refuse to believe this isn't trolling but I'll bite. Would you be happy knowing there's one nurse providing care to 25 people at any given moment - maybe your mother is one of that 25 people, or your sister, or your wife? Would you be happy with that? and, if this one nurse made a mistake (due to burden of time) and subsequently caused harm - Would you be happy with that? or is there no risk a nurse makes mistake because they don't make decisions or provide treatment... they only wipe arses, right?



Nursing schools are operating at 110% for the last few years in the hope of retaining a larger portion. Hasn't worked, try again.

The only only people struggling to find something isn't adding up is the people who are posting here with zero understanding on the topic - not even a rudimentary understanding of what this is all about. Moreover, they haven't a notion of what day to day running or working on a ward looks like but feel aptly informed to pipe up with the kind of display you're putting on.

Turn off your computer and have a long hard think about the **** you're posting. To say it's ill informed is an insult to the people who have a hope of grasping what the problem actually is.

So let’s throw more taxpayers money at the problem and it’ll all go away?
Good to see the government hold firm in the interests of all taxpayers, bottom line is we can’t afford it on top of what has already been given as the money and revenue streams just aren’t there.
We have a very favorable nurse to patient ratio on paper and in the payroll- so if they’re not on the wards as you illustrate then what exactly are they all doing?? Clearly we are getting very poor value indeed

road_high

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So more strike days on the way then, seems like pay rises are more important than doing the job they signed up for which is looking after sick people.

This was always the case...money money money and we are led to believe from the nursing union mafia this will improve the service to patients?
This will snowball to an acceleration in the public pay spiral of recent years so when we hit the next downturn it’ll be IMF round 2 and we’ll be back to square one. I find that a pretty scary prospect for the country’s finances

Miike

road_high wrote: »

So let’s throw more taxpayers money at the problem and it’ll all go away?
Good to see the government hold firm in the interests of all taxpayers, bottom line is we can’t afford it on top of what has already been given as the money and revenue streams just aren’t there.
We have a very favorable nurse to patient ratio on paper and in the payroll- so if they’re not on the wards as you illustrate then what exactly are they all doing?? Clearly we are getting very poor value indeed

Instead of me answering this, let me allow one of Irelands foremost experts reply to it: https://www.healthmanager.ie/2017/10/oecd-nurse-patient-ratios-do-not-give-the-full-picture/

As for 'making the problem go away' - This is a lot more complicated than a 12% pay increase. Most of the nurses I've spoken to (and in my job, it's a lot, i work in close contact with them every working day of my life) they'd be happy if the conditions got better. However to address that facet of the problem, they need to retain some of the nurses they already have because it's compounding the primary problem.

1641

iamwhoiam wrote: »

And senior staff nurses on the wards .

So more or less everyone.

How many whole time equivalent nurses are there in the public health sector now? About 37000 ballpark? (Apologies if a little out). Now, how many of these are promotional grades ? In 2007 there were 9,700. I haven't seen any more up to date figures but probably somewhere around the same now? That is hardly a bad proportion of promotional grades/senior staff.

Miike

1641 wrote: »

So more or less everyone.

How many whole time equivalent nurses are there in the public health sector now? About 37000 ballpark? (Apologies if a little out). Now, how many of these are promotional grades ? In 2007 there were 9,700. I haven't seen any more up to date figures but probably somewhere around the same now? That is hardly a bad proportion of promotional grades/senior staff.

I don't know the exact figures either and I won't pretend like I do but what I'd like to highlight with 2007 vs now is the amount of CNS posts as links to primary, second and tertiary level care inline with international best practice. I'd expect that number in 'promotional grades' to be magnitudes higher than 2007.

TheRiverman

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So more strike days on the way then, seems like pay rises are more important than doing the job they signed up for which is looking after sick people.

Many times every day in Hospitals there is a ratio of one nurse to seven to ten patients.Thats not looking after sick people,it is trying to cope in an impossible situation resulting in the nurse been more stressed than the patients.

Wheeliebin30

Miike wrote: »

Instead of me answering this, let me allow one of Irelands foremost experts reply to it: https://www.healthmanager.ie/2017/10/oecd-nurse-patient-ratios-do-not-give-the-full-picture/

As for 'making the problem go away' - This is a lot more complicated than a 12% pay increase. Most of the nurses I've spoken to (and in my job, it's a lot, i work in close contact with them every working day of my life) they'd be happy if the conditions got better. However to address that facet of the problem, they need to retain some of the nurses they already have because it's compounding the primary problem.

Maybe the new hospital will make conditions better and more acceptable for nurses?

How will throwing more money at them achieve that now?

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Maybe the new hospital will make conditions better and more acceptable for nurses?

How will throwing more money at them achieve that now?

Read my posts regarding conditions on the wards, the nurse patient ratio and time constraints. I'm bored of repeating my self but if I was to summarise: Incentive for retention, to try to stop nurses leaving to work for agencies for better work conditions and pay. (that's highly over simplified, sorry )

Wheeliebin30

Miike wrote: »

Read my posts regarding conditions on the wards, the nurse patient ratio and time constraints. I'm bored of repeating my self but if I was to summarise: Incentive for retention, to try to stop nurses leaving to work for agencies for better work conditions and pay. (that's highly over simplified, sorry )

Haven’t we the highest nurse to patient ratio in the oecd?

hawkelady

road_high wrote: »

Why are they a disgrace? Because they won’t open the atm for unwarranted pay demands? Great to see them and hang tight against the union mafia in the interest of the country. God knows what we could be facing fiscally this yesr, we just can’t afford it

You are aware that they gave the guards their PIN number a couple of years ago when they threatened strike action !! Why was that I wonder , maybe cause they would feel vulnerable without the guards to protect them or drive them around

Twenty Grand

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Haven’t we the highest nurse to patient ratio in the oecd?

Road High made this same point 30 minutes ago and Miike disproved it.

If you can't be bothered to read through thread then why bother commenting.

hawkelady

1641 wrote: »

Would that be the CNMs and CNSs and other specialist and senior grades? What is the evidence that they are leaving in numbers? What are their salary scales? Did not the management side offer to address specific niche areas while the INMO are demanding an accross the board increase of 12% ?

Are you aware that cnm 1 & 2’s are classed as “ frontline” nurses. Only cnm 3 or higher are classed real “ management, as in wear suits to work ..

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Haven’t we the highest nurse to patient ratio in the oecd?

Post #1686

Round and round we go. :eek:

road_high

hawkelady wrote: »

You are aware that they gave the guards their PIN number a couple of years ago when they threatened strike action !! Why was that I wonder , maybe cause they would feel vulnerable without the guards to protect them or drive them around

That shouldn’t have happened with the result that the floodgates have been opened. But the long term ability of the state to pay higher and higher wages has never been a public service concern, just grab what you can now and damn the consequences is the order of the day

Twenty Grand

Miike wrote: »

Post #1686

Round and round we go. :eek:

*Bangs head on wall

1641

hawkelady wrote: »

You are aware that they gave the guards their PIN number a couple of years ago when they threatened strike action !! Why was that I wonder , maybe cause they would feel vulnerable without the guards to protect them or drive them around

I agree with you that this is the nub of the dispute - "hand over your pin number or else".

hawkelady

road_high wrote: »

That shouldn’t have happened with the result that the floodgates have been opened. But the long term ability of the state to pay higher and higher wages has never been a public service concern, just grab what you can now and damn the consequences is the order of the day

Point taken but I was replying to you saying your proud of Leo holding firm etc. I was counteracting your comment by proving Leo and the gov basically will do what suits him and it’s got nothing to do with him being a great leader that does what’s best for the tax paying public !!

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

*Bangs head on wall

I’ll go back relax, don’t **** your underpants.