Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

1641

hawkelady wrote: »

Are you aware that cnm 1 & 2’s are classed as “ frontline” nurses. Only cnm 3 or higher are classed real “ management, as in wear suits to work ..

What? CNM1s & CNM2s are not senior grades ? These are just ornamental titles (with ornamental salaries)?

Wheeliebin30

I can’t find post 160 can someone post it?

Wheeliebin30

hawkelady wrote: »

Point taken but I was replying to you saying your proud of Leo holding firm etc. I was counteracting your comment by proving Leo and the gov basically will do what suits him and it’s got nothing to do with him being a great leader that does what’s best for the tax paying public !!

Why does it suit him?

Miike

Miike wrote: »

Instead of me answering this, let me allow one of Irelands foremost experts reply to it: https://www.healthmanager.ie/2017/10/oecd-nurse-patient-ratios-do-not-give-the-full-picture/

Here wheeliebin.

Twenty Grand

Miike wrote: »

Here wheeliebin.

Have a good ol nitpick of that.

Wheeliebin30

Miike wrote: »

Here wheeliebin.

Thanks.

But I don’t see anything discrediting the claim???

road_high

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Why does it suit him?

You’d imagine following this logic he’d be doing the populist thing and agreeing. But the countries finances just don’t allow and we can’t afford to pluck additional pay advances from the sky

Wheeliebin30

road_high wrote: »

You’d imagine following this logic he’d be doing the populist thing and agreeing. But the countries finances just don’t allow and we can’t afford to pluck additional pay advances from the sky

I know like FG knows they will loose loads of votes by not been populist and throwing money at it yet they persist.

No one can tell me why??????

hawkelady

road_high wrote: »

You’d imagine following this logic he’d be doing the populist thing and agreeing. But the countries finances just don’t allow and we can’t afford to pluck additional pay advances from the sky

I’m quite sure it will be settled eventually , don’t you ? Just not as quick as the guards dispute cause nurses don’t protect the gov or drive them around. So even if the atm is nearly empty I can’t see this dispute carry on for months , canyou.

road_high

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I know like FG knows they will loose loads of votes by not been populist and throwing money at it yet they persist.

No one can tell me why??????

Because the money ain’t there! Pretty simple, they don’t have a printing machine for the billions extra this will cost

hawkelady

Billions??? Was the figure of 300 million not the figure

Twenty Grand

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Thanks.

But I don’t see anything discrediting the claim???

The oecd report uses the ratio of nurses to beds.

Ireland has quite a high ratio compared to other countries.
However, who the report counts as nurses differs between coutries and bed occupancy isn't taken into account either.

So you can have a situation where the report says that say Ireland and Germany both have a 100 beds and 10 nurses on a ward. Or a 10:1 ratio.

Whats missing is that 2 of the Irish nurses are managers and aren't on the wards and the 100 Irish beds are constantly occupied, plus another 20 trolleys in the corridor that aren't counted. While the German hospital has maybe 80 beds occupied and their nurses are actually all nurses.
So the Irish ratio is actually 15:1 and Germany is 8:1.

Of course no one has actually read the OECD report that admits this flaw, and other sources I've linked that also highlight it, so the same bullsh*t "fact" just gets trotted out day after day.

Wheeliebin30

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The oecd report uses the ratio of nurses to beds.

Ireland has quite a high ratio compared to other countries.
However, who the report counts are nurses differs between coutries and bed occupancy isn't taken into account either.

So you can have a situation where the report says that say Ireland and Germany both have a 100 beds and 10 nurses on a ward. Or a 10:1 ratio.

Whats missing is that 2 of the Irish nurses are managers and aren't on the wards and the 100 Irish beds are constantly occupied, plus another 20 trolleys in the corridor that aren't counted. While the German hospital has maybe 80 beds occupied and their nurses are actually all nurses.
So the Irish ratio is actually 15:1 and Germany is 8:1.

Of course no one has actually read the OECD report that admits this flaw, and other sources I've linked that also highlight it, so the same bullsh*t "fact" just gets trotted out day after day.

I agree the problem is the nurses sitting in offices all day long doing nothing.

Like the majority in of the HSE middle management.

1641

hawkelady wrote: »

I’m quite sure it will be settled eventually , don’t you ? Just not as quick as the guards dispute cause nurses don’t protect the gov or drive them around. So even if the atm is nearly empty I can’t see this dispute carry on for months , canyou.

A bit too cynical, methinks. The prospect of free days for both organised and opportunist criminality, and the political implications this would have, was more to the point.

They still shouldn't have given in though. How many years ago was that? And how has Garda "reform" progressed since?

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I agree the problem is the nurses sitting in offices all day long doing nothing.

Like the majority in of the HSE middle management.

Point is the OECD is not an accurate measurement so please stop counting it as one. It's incredibly frustrating that people can't have dynamic debate but refer back to the same thing over and over, despite it being disproved.

I'm going to clock out of this thread now. Its undoubtedly run it's course. I appreciate all of the people who actually took the time to engage in logical debate and retort to it.

Good luck to the nurses of this thread - you have my support.

road_high

hawkelady wrote: »

I’m quite sure it will be settled eventually , don’t you ? Just not as quick as the guards dispute cause nurses don’t protect the gov or drive them around. So even if the atm is nearly empty I can’t see this dispute carry on for months , canyou.

No one knows. They could look at graduate pay which would be sensible but unfortunately the unions agenda isn’t focused there

Twenty Grand

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I agree the problem is the nurses sitting in offices all day long doing nothing.

Like the majority in of the HSE middle management.

Where's the evidence for that statement?

Who says they're doing nothing?

tayto lover

road_high wrote: »

Because the money ain’t there! Pretty simple, they don’t have a printing machine for the billions extra this will cost

Yet they didn’t show example when they gave themselves another rise lately.
Had they declined that they might have shown example.

road_high

tayto lover wrote: »

Yet they didn’t show example when they gave themselves another rise lately.
Had they declined that they might have shown example.

Yes very poor optics and example indeed. But a relative drop in the ocean compared to the avalanche in PS pay coming

tayto lover

road_high wrote: »

Yes very poor optics and example indeed. But a relative drop in the ocean compared to the avalanche in PS pay coming

No foresight whatsoever.

1641

tayto lover wrote: »

Yet they didn’t show example when they gave themselves another rise lately.
Had they declined that they might have shown example.

I assume you mean the public sector pay rise? - Which applies accross the board - even to nurses, believe it or not. TDs pay is linked to public sector pay.

• 1st January 2018: 1% pay adjustment
• 1st October 2018: 1% pay adjustment
• 1st January 2019: Pension levy threshold up from €28,750 to €32,000 (worth €325pa)
• 1st January 2019: 1% pay adjustment for those earning less than €30,000
• 1st September 2019: 1.75% pay adjustment
• 1st January 2020: Pension levy threshold increased to €34,500 (worth €250pa)
• 1st October 2020: 2% pay adjustment.

Value of combined pay and pension levy adjustments

• Combination of pay and pension levy adjustments worth 7.4% to those earning €30,000 a year or less, over lifetime of deal
• Combination of pay and pension levy adjustments worth 7% to those earning between €50,000 and €55,000 a year, over lifetime of deal
• Combination of pay and pension levy adjustments worth between 6.6% and 6.9% for those between €55,000 and €80,000 a year, over lifetime of deal.

HamSarris

The key piece of evidence is this debate is how much nurses actually get paid.

The current stats are that the average nursing pay is 57k. For staff grade the average pay is 51K. For the more senior grades it's a bit over 60k. The average is very representative of the nursing population as few get under 40k and few over 80k so there's no extremes distorting the average (i.e., median = mean).

The INMO have not disputed these figures. The only attempts to debunk these figures have come from individual nurses publishing their payslip and trying to pretend it represents the average. But why is it the case that every time reliable research has been conducted in this area, the average nursing salary is always in the 50-60k range. These are not nurses at the top of their scales. These are average nurses whose base income is substantially supplemented by large allowances, nightshifts and overtime.

So I think the population has been slightly fooled in this saga. The average worker on 40K honking their horns at nurses and feeling pity for them - even though these nurses could be earning 50% more than them.

noodler

tayto lover wrote: »

Yet they didn’t show example when they gave themselves another rise lately.
Had they declined that they might have shown example.

Such a ****ing lie.

And its spread all over social media.

Wheeliebin30

noodler wrote: »

Such a ****ing lie.

And its spread all over social media.

Left wing populist media.

I worry about the future and how the voting population read pure lies in the media.

No one ever pulls them up on it.

Twenty Grand

HamSarris wrote: »

So I think the population has been slightly fooled in this saga. The average worker on 40K honking their horns at nurses and feeling pity for them - even though these nurses could be earning 50% more than them.

This has been discussed here at length.

The top of the nurses payscale before extra is about 45k, with about 12k of allowances on top.

These allowances are mainly overtime, which they are doing because they're so understaffed, plus allowances which are not available to all nurses.
As I said before today (because we're just going in circles here) should nurses be put in a situation where their wages are deemed "high enough" because they have some colleagues pulling serious overtime due to understaffing and a few are getting specialist allowances?

I work with some lads who work every hour they can. 80, 90 hour weeks. Savage OT, easily 100k a year. I can't work it, because I have commitments and just don't want to. I'd be gutted if their OT was used to bump up average wages as an arguement against pay rises.

noodler

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Left wing populist media.

I worry about the future and how the voting population read pure lies in the media.

No one ever pulls them up on it.

I'm gonna spell it out again for the last time anyway.


1. 2009: Pension levy applied to all public servants.

2. 2010: Croke Park deal, pay cuts applied to gross of all public servants.

3. 2013: Haddington Road Agreement: pay cuts to those earning more than 65k but BUT these cuts are temporary and will be paid back in 2017 and 2018.

THAT is what happened in when the government supposedly gave themselves a pay rise. It was merely restoration of a cut nurses were not subject to. It was restored for all public sector workers warning over 65k and subject to Haddington Road. Finally, it was NOT their decision, the pay deals are voted on by the unions, TD pay is linked to that of principal officer in the civil service... Politicians don't vote on their own salary.

Rant over.

noodler

Twenty Grand wrote: »

This has been discussed here at length.

The top of the nurses payscale before extra is about 45k, with about 12k of allowances on top.

These allowances are mainly overtime, which they are doing because they're so understaffed, plus allowances which are not available to all nurses.
As I said before today (because we're just going in circles here) should nurses be put in a situation where their wages are deemed "high enough" because they have some colleagues pulling serious overtime due to understaffing and a few are getting specialist allowances?

I work with some lads who work every hour they can. 80, 90 hour weeks. Savage OT, easily 100k a year. I can't work it, because I have commitments and just don't want to. I'd be gutted if their OT was used to bump up average wages as an arguement against pay rises.

Allowances are mainly shift allowance which is 20-30%.

ismat

HamSarris wrote: »

The key piece of evidence is this debate is how much nurses actually get paid.

The current stats are that the average nursing pay is 57k. For staff grade the average pay is 51K. For the more senior grades it's a bit over 60k. The average is very representative of the nursing population as few get under 40k and few over 80k so there's no extremes distorting the average (i.e., median = mean).

The INMO have not disputed these figures. The only attempts to debunk these figures have come from individual nurses publishing their payslip and trying to pretend it represents the average. But why is it the case that every time reliable research has been conducted in this area, the average nursing salary is always in the 50-60k range. These are not nurses at the top of their scales. These are average nurses whose base income is substantially supplemented by large allowances, nightshifts and overtime.

So I think the population has been slightly fooled in this saga. The average worker on 40K honking their horns at nurses and feeling pity for them - even though these nurses could be earning 50% more than them.

You see this all the time. The teachers are the exact same. The people already in the system and the unions representing them screwed over the new entrants when they did their deal with the government. They always have the poor mouth on them.
What I can’t understand is why people keep training to be nurses if the pay and conditions are so bad. Someone entering the profession this year would of known the pay rates when they started their training. If it is so bad why did they not do something else?
At the end of the day it’s a job. If the job does not fulfill your needs do something else
If they want to go overseas and earn x amount let them go. If they want to work here for the rates on offer then let them work here. That is each individuals choice

1641

Twenty Grand wrote: »

This has been discussed here at length.

The top of the nurses payscale before extra is about 45k, with about 12k of allowances on top.

This is simply not so. It may be top of a staff nurse's pay scale. But this is not a dispute about staff nurse's pay - it is a pay claim across the board. CNMs pay scale goes up to about €64,000, right ? That is leaving out the higher promotional grades, which go considerably higher (and excluding any premiums,allowances or overtime).


And it is not that there are only a handful of promotional posts. As noted in a previous post, there were approximately 9,700 promotional positions in 2007 - I don't know the figure now (anybody?).


It is disingenuous to keep quoting the staff nurses' (basic) pay scale only. This is an across the board claim.

1641

Nice, really nice. But, sure, they have hearts of gold, thank God:

"NURSES are to escalate their strike action on Tuesday by refusing to provide cover for hundreds of people with an intellectual disability who attend day services for respite care.

The escalation will mean many more vulnerable people will be hit by the strike – on top of the 25,000 patients and people in the community who will be without a service."

hmmm

I've seen nurses in the media quoting their net pay only, which is very disingenuous. This is a careful media campaign clearly, but the public is beginning to see through it.

You might see the public offering their support, but they are quite happy for the government to hold the line, particularly with the unknown dangers of Brexit down the line. We might see a second budget this year.

1641

hmmm wrote: »

I've seen nurses in the media quoting their net pay only, which is very disingenuous. This is a careful media campaign clearly, but the public is beginning to see through it.

Or not disclosing that their pay relates to less than full time hours.

Inspector Coptoor

ismat wrote: »

You see this all the time. The teachers are the exact same. The people already in the system and the unions representing them screwed over the new entrants when they did their deal with the government. They always have the poor mouth on them.
What I can’t understand is why people keep training to be nurses if the pay and conditions are so bad. Someone entering the profession this year would of known the pay rates when they started their training. If it is so bad why did they not do something else?
At the end of the day it’s a job. If the job does not fulfill your needs do something else
If they want to go overseas and earn x amount let them go. If they want to work here for the rates on offer then let them work here. That is each individuals choice

Unions NEVER voted for pay cuts.
Unions never threw future members under the bus, or sold them down the river or pulled up the ladder.

That’s what the media has been peddling to you and you bought it hook, line and sinker.

The pay cuts for new entrants that were imposed back around 2011/12 came from the Dail floor and the Public Accounts Committee.

The government also have used the draconian measures of FEMPI to bully unions
Into signing up to the various sports ground themed collective pay “agreements”.

They are not agreements when threats and coercion is being used.

People are entitled to be union members.
People are entitled to withdraw their labour in search of better terms and conditions.

The money would be there IF government taxed multi national companies and banks correctly.

Twenty Grand

1641 wrote: »

This is simply not so. It may be top of a staff nurse's pay scale. But this is not a dispute about staff nurse's pay - it is a pay claim across the board. CNMs pay scale goes up to about €64,000, right ? That is leaving out the higher promotional grades, which go considerably higher (and excluding any premiums,allowances or overtime)

It is disingenuous to keep quoting the staff nurses' (basic) pay scale only. This is an across the board claim.

The post i replied to used the 57k pay figure, which is the average staff nurse pay plus allowances mentioned in that report.
He didn't mention the higher grades so neither did I.

hmmm wrote: »

I've seen nurses in the media quoting their net pay only, which is very disingenuous. This is a careful media campaign clearly, but the public is beginning to see through it.

You might see the public offering their support, but they are quite happy for the government to hold the line, particularly with the unknown dangers of Brexit down the line. We might see a second budget this year.

Is this your opinion or do you have any links to any of these claims?

ismat wrote: »

What I can’t understand is why people keep training to be nurses if the pay and conditions are so bad. Someone entering the profession this year would of known the pay rates when they started their training. If it is so bad why did they not do something else?
At the end of the day it’s a job. If the job does not fulfill your needs do something else
If they want to go overseas and earn x amount let them go. If they want to work here for the rates on offer then let them work here. That is each individuals choice

Govt spends thousands training nurses,
Govt fails to offers decent wages and condition.
Many nurses leave.
We have a shortage.
Govt spends even more money on agency and OT.

Now what step here would you change to solve our problems?

road_high

1641 wrote: »

Nice, really nice. But, sure, they have hearts of gold, thank God:

"NURSES are to escalate their strike action on Tuesday by refusing to provide cover for hundreds of people with an intellectual disability who attend day services for respite care.

The escalation will mean many more vulnerable people will be hit by the strike – on top of the 25,000 patients and people in the community who will be without a service."

See them on Facebook- like a cackle of callous witches- many want to up the anti to deliberately risk patients lives- this is the “caring” face of the modern day Irish nurse- patients are their bargaining chips. Disgusting carry on

ismat

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Unions NEVER voted for pay cuts.
Unions never threw future members under the bus, or sold them down the river or pulled up the ladder.

That’s what the media has been peddling to you and you bought it hook, line and sinker.

The pay cuts for new entrants that were imposed back around 2011/12 came from the Dail floor and the Public Accounts Committee.

The government also have used the draconian measures of FEMPI to bully unions
Into signing up to the various sports ground themed collective pay “agreements”.

They are not agreements when threats and coercion is being used.

People are entitled to be union members.
People are entitled to withdraw their labour in search of better terms and conditions.

The money would be there IF government taxed multi national companies and banks correctly.

You agree that the unions signed up to these agreements?

They could of protected future members but instead made sure that their current members kept their cushy number while sacrificing new members.

I don’t care if they strike every day for the next year. As you say that is their entitlement and I agree with you 100%. They will get sick of striking very quickly and the public won’t be to long in waking up to the lies being pedalled about their current pay levels etc

jay0109

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Unions NEVER voted for pay cuts.
Unions never threw future members under the bus, or sold them down the river or pulled up the ladder.

That’s what the media has been peddling to you and you bought it hook, line and sinker.

The pay cuts for new entrants that were imposed back around 2011/12 came from the Dail floor and the Public Accounts Committee.

Really! Ask new entrants to the Teaching profession what they think of the Unions who voted to keep the pay of existing teachers intact while introducing new grades for entrants.

Inspector Coptoor

jay0109 wrote: »

Really! Ask new entrants to the Teaching profession what they think of the Unions who voted to keep the pay of existing teachers intact while introducing new grades for entrants.

I am a teacher.
I have gone on strike in an attempt to get new teachers on the same pay scale I am on.

Teachers’ unions did not impose these new pay scales on the profession.
That was the government.

The one size fits all approach of an agreement for all public sector workers on pay just doesn’t work as so many of the jobs don’t have private sector equivalents and can’t be monitored by performance and or targets.

That’s not say there should be carte Blanche in terms of pay but certainly each profession, how long it takes to train in that profession and working unsocial hours need to be considered.

In addition to that, due to the spiraling cost of living in the greater Dublin area, an allowance for living in Dublin needs to be considered as is done in London.

Twenty Grand

road_high wrote: »

See them on Facebook- like a cackle of callous witches- many want to up the anti to deliberately risk patients lives- this is the “caring” face of the modern day Irish nurse- patients are their bargaining chips. Disgusting carry on

If that's what you think about nurses then I doubt anything anyone says will change your mind.

hmmm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The pay cuts for new entrants that were imposed back around 2011/12 came from the Dail floor and the Public Accounts Committee.

The unions were given a choice to cut pay for everyone, or just new entrants. The government at the time didn't care where the cuts came from, they just needed them.

The unions decided to pull up the drawbridges and protect their existing members. Their members then happily voted for this.

So spare us the pontificating about how hard new entrants have it, their own colleagues are the ones who shafted them.

1641

jay0109 wrote: »

Really! Ask new entrants to the Teaching profession what they think of the Unions who voted to keep the pay of existing teachers intact while introducing new grades for entrants.

Exactly. The teaching unions could have resolved the new entrants issue ages ago, eg, freezing increments for established members for a number of years to divert the (limited) funding available to the newbies.

Inspector Coptoor

hmmm wrote: »

The unions were given a choice to cut pay for everyone, or just new entrants. The government at the time didn't care where the cuts came from, they just needed them.

The unions decided to pull up the drawbridges and protect their existing members. Their members then happily voted for this.

So spare us the pontificating about how hard new entrants have it, their own colleagues are the ones who shafted them.

I know what I voted on and I NEVER voted for that, never mind doing so “happily”.

No “pontificating” from me either. Just giving you an alternate, and more correct, version of events.

ismat

hmmm wrote: »

The unions were given a choice to cut pay for everyone, or just new entrants. The government at the time didn't care where the cuts came from, they just needed them.

The unions decided to pull up the drawbridges and protect their existing members. Their members then happily voted for this.

So spare us the pontificating about how hard new entrants have it, their own colleagues are the ones who shafted them.

This is an actual fact.
It’s hard to believe a teacher would not believe something that actually happened and was reported on extentisively at the time

judeboy101

hmmm wrote: »

The unions were given a choice to cut pay for everyone, or just new entrants. The government at the time didn't care where the cuts came from, they just needed them.

The unions decided to pull up the drawbridges and protect their existing members. Their members then happily voted for this.

So spare us the pontificating about how hard new entrants have it, their own colleagues are the ones who shafted them.

Not true. As an asti member my union is the ONLY union to have never voted for a pay agreement that condones the two tier pay scale (we were outside ictu when negotiated). And we have been punished severely for our stand including being locked out by our employers, the first time since big jims time. The nurses have accepted pay inequality as recently as last year.

road_high

Twenty Grand wrote: »

If that's what you think about nurses then I doubt anything anyone says will change your mind.

No I don’t think that about all nurses- just the callous ones that want to endanger patient safety for a few euros. I’m sure there are many genuine ones in the profession that dont, but are drowned out by the union mob

Inspector Coptoor

ismat wrote: »

This is an actual fact.
It’s hard to believe a teacher would not believe something that actually happened and was reported on extentisively at the time

It’s not a “fact” for all teacher unions.
But don’t let the actual facts get in the way of a good story.

noodler

Teachers could have striked after budget 2011 was announced.

They didn't.

Tacit acceptance tbf.

tayto lover

road_high wrote: »

No I don’t think that about all nurses- just the callous ones that want to endanger patient safety for a few euros. I’m sure there are many genuine ones in the profession that dont, but are drowned out by the union mob

Without Unions you wouldn’t be earning anywhere near what you’re getting now.
Think about it.

jay0109

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I am a teacher.
I have gone on strike in an attempt to get new teachers on the same pay scale I am on.

Teachers’ unions did not impose these new pay scales on the profession.
That was the government.

Yes, the above is true. But the Teachers at the time voted to accept those new pay scales proposed by the Govt as long as the existing teachers were left alone, no increments stopped etc.

You left out that bit!

Twenty Grand

road_high wrote: »

No I don’t think that about all nurses- just the callous ones that want to endanger patient safety for a few euros. I’m sure there are many genuine ones in the profession that dont, but are drowned out by the union mob

Well 90% votes for strike action.