Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

backspin.

backspin. wrote: »

It was the 80's.

So he hit the jackpot so if you think about it.
Unemployment was at very high levels. Jobs were few and far between.
That accepted folk who were working did ok. My Dad worked shifts in a factory at the time and was on a really good wage. I'm not glum enough to look at single cases though and think the 80s were fooking wonderful compared to today.

TheRiverman

Augeo wrote: »

The must be flush enough if they can afford all these planned strikes.

Very naive comment.

Twenty Grand

backspin. wrote: »

Are they, I was just thinking earlier of a neighbor of mine, a lorry driver, wife never worked and he managed to raise 4 kids and owns a decent house. That would be very difficult to do starting out now.

There's a great thread on here about the 80s and how many people have rose tinted glasses when the look back at what life was like.

Goldengirl

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The oecd report uses the ratio of nurses to beds.

Ireland has quite a high ratio compared to other countries.
However, who the report counts as nurses differs between coutries and bed occupancy isn't taken into account either.

So you can have a situation where the report says that say Ireland and Germany both have a 100 beds and 10 nurses on a ward. Or a 10:1 ratio.

Whats missing is that 2 of the Irish nurses are managers and aren't on the wards and the 100 Irish beds are constantly occupied, plus another 20 trolleys in the corridor that aren't counted. While the German hospital has maybe 80 beds occupied and their nurses are actually all nurses.
So the Irish ratio is actually 15:1 and Germany is 8:1.

Of course no one has actually read the OECD report that admits this flaw, and other sources I've linked that also highlight it, so the same bullsh*t "fact" just gets trotted out day after day.

Yes and in fact the OECD itself admits that the figures are not accurate due to differences in collecting data.

Goldengirl

noodler wrote: »

I'm gonna spell it out again for the last time anyway.


1. 2009: Pension levy applied to all public servants.

2. 2010: Croke Park deal, pay cuts applied to gross of all public servants.

3. 2013: Haddington Road Agreement: pay cuts to those earning more than 65k but BUT these cuts are temporary and will be paid back in 2017 and 2018.

THAT is what happened in when the government supposedly gave themselves a pay rise. It was merely restoration of a cut nurses were not subject to. It was restored for all public sector workers warning over 65k and subject to Haddington Road. Finally, it was NOT their decision, the pay deals are voted on by the unions, TD pay is linked to that of principal officer in the civil service... Politicians don't vote on their own salary.

Rant over.

If they are so worried about public finances they could refuse it. Poor things , being forced by the unions to take a 6.5 to 6.9% pay rise. .

Goldengirl

noodler wrote: »

Allowances are mainly shift allowance which is 20-30%.

Allowances are only paid to nurses who work them. Nurses working Mon to Fri patterns don't get them. There are a lot more of these areas operating in the health service than is commonly known.

Goldengirl

road_high wrote: »

See them on Facebook- like a cackle of callous witches- many want to up the anti to deliberately risk patients lives- this is the “caring” face of the modern day Irish nurse- patients are their bargaining chips. Disgusting carry on

This is how you describe nurses...you are a misogynistic troll who keeps popping out of your hole with sxxt and never reads or listens or debates. Just the same rubbish over and over again.

iamwhoiam

Goldengirl wrote: »

This is how you describe nurses...you are a misogynistic troll who keeps popping out of your hole with sxxt and never reads or listens or debates. Just the same rubbish over and over again.

I think a nurse rejected his advances in Coppers !

brendanwalsh

Government won't cave on this one. Trying to empty the public coffers 8 weeks before a likely brexit no deal. We will be back in 2008 if Leo empties the wallet.

Goldengirl

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think a nurse rejected his advances in Coppers !

Doubt if he gets out much, always trolling any public service threads 🙄

Edgware

Goldengirl wrote: »

Allowances are only paid to nurses who work them. Nurses working Mon to Fri patterns don't get them. There are a lot more of these areas operating in the health service than is commonly known.

Why should some nurse sitting on her arse taking blood samples between tea breaks get the same money as some nurse below in Accident and Emergency on a Friday night dealing with drunken scumbags?

tayto lover

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Government won't cave on this one. Trying to empty the public coffers 8 weeks before a likely brexit no deal. We will be back in 2008 if Leo empties the wallet.

Time will tell.
Leo will melt when they up the anti.

pjohnson

Goldengirl wrote: »

Doubt if he gets out much, always trolling any public service threads 🙄

I like the Union fans. Everyone else is a troll and Unions are great.

Without fail.

James Brown

They could pay the nurses and midwives and just say the hospital went up another billion, nobody seems to know who organised that.

TheRiverman

Edgware wrote: »

Why should some nurse sitting on her arse taking blood samples between tea breaks get the same money as some nurse below in Accident and Emergency on a Friday night dealing with drunken scumbags?

The words of an expert on how all hospital wards are functioning at present ?

Goldengirl

salonfire wrote: »

But that's the thing. What is there to set controls and avoid public sector employees demanding whatever they want and using the public as hostages?

The government sat round with the unions and agreed pay rise just 18 months ago.

Out of the blue comes an additional 12% on top of the already agreed 7% .

Half baked and wrong, again. Read the thread. Can't be bothered correcting sxxt like this anymore.

Goldengirl

jay0109 wrote: »

Wouldn't even bother with an allowance. Instead, give those front line public servants that are looking to buy a house first call on affordable housing built inside the M50.
I don't think most people would have an issue with that. It would also help with recruitment and retention in the long term

A Dublin weighting would be a good idea. All businesses public and private, are having problems recruiting staff for Dublin.

Damien360

Goldengirl wrote: »

A Dublin weighting would be a good idea. All businesses public and private, are having problems recruiting staff for Dublin.

A Dublin/Cork weighting makes sense. A bit like London and teachers. The weighting is given in percentage of house purchase cost up to an amount. My brother got that and had to remain in that employment for a minimum term. If he left that job, the house had to be sold and the council has to get it's money back plus any profit from sale. Once the fixed term was up, he was free to sell without backpayment to council. It made it easier to get teachers.

But, we are in a housing crisis with regards to pricing and availability. It would just fuel the fire.

Pay restoration would be nice. I still have not got back to my 2007 pay level and I'm in the private sector (not health). Our increases are in the order of 1%, but I have been getting those every year for the past 4. It is a matter of cost. My employer can't push customers for more and similarly the nurses can't push it's paymaster for more as it simply is not there.

In a little under 8 weeks Brexit will hit and we will have to finance that. You could double nursing wages and the current issue with the health service would remain. They are right to highlight so many things that are wrong but paying more won't fix it.

Goldengirl

salonfire wrote: »

This is certainly true.

They are all about the common man, the worker and the union when it comes to themselves. But the first person you'll see looking for a bargain is a public sector worker, hopping on the cheapest Ryanair flight whose staff are treated like dogsh1t


When the private sector was getting shredded, not a mention about it.

Are you serious ,you silly person?
I may work in the public sector but my husband and half my family are private sector. This is just blatant divisive propaganda from you. We all pay taxes and some of my taxes go to IDA and ISME and grants and incentives for businesses, and also social welfare which was very necessary after the crash. And how do you know what flights a nurse gets anymore than the business person.?..

Twenty Grand

Does a Dublin weighting make sense in the long term?
The only major difference between Dublin and other urban centres is the cost of accommodation.

If that was to level out over the next 5 years then youd be back tonight two tier system.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Wrong. Nurses rejected that.. Please read the thread, this has been posted numerous times . Again half baked, jumping in with a comment.

Not wrong. The INMO accepted the Public Service Stability Agreement 2018-2020 and the pay rises in it. They are looking for increases beyond the agreement. Of course, striking for a pay rise would itself be a breach of the agreement. That is why they have come with this ruse that it is all do with retention - so they can take the money and still strike (in their opinion - I wonder how long they will be indulged about this?).


There is no evidence that there is an across the board retention issue. Yet they are demanding across the board pay rises in all grades. It is a money-grab - plain and simple. Look at the INMO's contemptuous rejection this evening of Government offer of talks on issues that might actually be to do with retention.

Goldengirl

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

A teacher may have to go to bed worrying about a student who is very upset/distracted:acting out because their mum/dad IS the patient that nurse is looking after.

I teach 170 students across the age range of 12-18.
A lot of these students have problems and that’s where the pastoral role of being a teacher comes in.

I would never say that any job is “easy” without having first hand experience of it.

You can’t point at the holidays and say “teaching is easy”.
It’s a cop out.

Teaching isn't easy . A lot of training and high standards to maintain while watching out for vulnerable kids. But they are trying to derail this thread and you, by attacking teachers. They have done this with anyone who supports nurses but works in a different area.
Thank you for your support .

They won't get their pay restoration as it means the whole public service would be gagging for it then.

As an aside, all health care professions earn less than they did in 2008. As an example, a senior pharmacist in 2008 started on 64000 euro but only starts on 61000 euro today.

Galwayguy35

I'd say they thought the government would have caved by now, good to see them standing firm.

Disrupting the lives of sick people just for a pay rise.

eagle eye

Galwayguy35 wrote:

I'd say they thought the government would have caved by now, good to see them standing firm.

The only problem is that can't go out indefinitely. If they went on a full out strike it'd get sorted real quick.

Galwayguy35 wrote:

Disrupting the lives of sick people just for a pay rise.

What are they supposed to do? Nobody was listening to them, they had no choice but to take this action.
It's about more than just pay too.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

The only problem is that can't go out indefinitely. If they went on a full out strike it'd get sorted real quick.


What are they supposed to do? Nobody was listening to them, they had no choice but to take this action.
It's about more than just pay too.

I would fully support nurses if this strike was about conditions but it's not. It's about getting a 12% pay increase.

HamSarris

The argument has been made that nurses should get the same pay as professions like physiotherapy, speech and language therapy and occupational therapy. It has been argued that each requires a degree so why should nurses be discriminated against?

Firstly, half of young adults have a degree so it doesn't entitle anyone to their own office and a big salary anymore.

Second, the take home pay of nurses currently matches these professions given that the average nurse makes 25% more than their base salary with allowances, irregular hours and overtime. For example, after 10 years experience, a staff grade physiotherapist takes home 47k. The average staff grade nurse takes home 51K.

Lastly, it's clear that some professions are a lot harder to get into others. Just look at the differences in CAO points. If nursing pay basic is increased to match these professions, the average nurse will take home 25% more than people in these professions who don't have the same allowances, overtime etc. This will build up a lot of resentment with these and other professions - the former A students will start to feel they're at the bottom of the class in terms of pay and the threat of large scale industrial action will increase.

CAO Points 2018:

Physiotherapy
UL: 566
Trinity: 543
UCD: 545
RCS 532

Speech & Language
Trinity: 520
NUIG: 529
UCC: 509

Occupational Therapy
UCC: 522
Trinity: 507
NUIG: 521

General Nursing
UCC 440
Trinity: 408
UCD: 402
NUIG: 445

Goldengirl

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Show me where?

I said leading up, the years 2000-2006,

Taken from previous post.

It was even worse.
€13bn in 2008
€23.5bn in 2009
€53.5bn in 2010
€22bn in 2011
€14bn in 2012
€10bn in 2013

Borrowing to fund the public servants and social welfare recipients that Bertie bought and (we) paid for during the good times.

It makes the banking bailout look like the Teddy Bear's picnic.

At least we got back around €18bn from the banks. But we're still saddled with Rolls Royce pay and pensions for the public service.

We're still paying back the money and you have the same fcukers telling us it was really all the fault of the banks while they have their hands out looking for more of the same.

It's time people woke up to the bull**** they're being spun by populist economic morons.

So is your other name Facehugger?
Because this is his post that you have put up , from a few days ago...and the answer , which I will quote , is not mine, but if you can read a graph?? It Is from Wanderer78 , p 133 , an attachment from Prof Steven Keen. Go back and look at it, it shows the main debt caused by the crash was not public service pay. But then we know that .

Miike

eagle eye wrote: »

The only problem is that can't go out indefinitely. If they went on a full out strike it'd get sorted real quick.

People will die if they do this. Not a nurse in this country wants to see someone die (any normal nurse doesn't want this anyway, you'd hope).

I do think this escalation of strikes by the dominant unions isn't going to help the matter either. I support nurses in this but I think they should dial back the gung-ho and open as much dialogue as possible (including addressing non-pay related aspects) before they go announcing more and more stoppages, overtimes bans and strikes.The optics aren't great from either side but this could quickly spin out of control.

Martina1991

Are there many nurses that just work 9 to 5 monday to Friday?

Are nights and weekends compulsory at all?

facehugger99

eagle eye wrote: »

It's about more than just pay too.

The only people who peddle that lie are the nurses and the terminally stupid.

I’ll presume you’re a nurse.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Teaching isn't easy . A lot of training and high standards to maintain while watching out for vulnerable kids. But they are trying to derail this thread and you, by attacking teachers. They have done this with anyone who supports nurses but works in a different area.
Thank you for your support .

Both nurses and teachers individually generally do a good job. That is recognized in the their pay as well as non-pay elements of their employment. Don't try pretending that those who dont accept the present hostage-taking of the sick and dependent are somehow anti nurse.

Galwayguy35

eagle eye wrote: »

The only problem is that can't go out indefinitely. If they went on a full out strike it'd get sorted real quick.


What are they supposed to do? Nobody was listening to them, they had no choice but to take this action.
It's about more than just pay too.

So you think they should be just given 12% pay rises then do you?

This country is just coming out of a recession, but the PS are still whinging about the fact they had to take a pay cut to their secure pensionable job while the rest of us lost our jobs.

They need to get real and realise there isn't an endless supply of money the government can tap into, that's how Bertie bought PS votes and we all know where we ended up there.

pjohnson

eagle eye wrote: »

It's about more than just pay too.

Unions always peddle this yet once pay is increased the other points are very quickly forgotten.

Goldengirl

mikhail wrote: »

General Nursing is 100 points lower at UCD than Engineering, and 80 lower at TCD. This is publically available information. I don't really see why you're just making **** up.

Its higher in DCU and UCC ? Don't know about Galway or Limerick, but my point is ..you can't say one degree is better than another just because the points are higher . Does that mean that nurses trained in DCU or UCC are better trained than others in the country? Are engineers in UCC or DCU less able to do their jobs?

hawkelady

HamSarris wrote: »

The argument has been made that nurses should get the same pay as professions like physiotherapy, speech and language therapy and occupational therapy. It has been argued that each requires a degree so why should nurses be discriminated against?

Firstly, half of young adults have a degree so it doesn't entitle anyone to their own office and a big salary anymore.

Second, the take home pay of nurses currently matches these professions given that the average nurse makes 25% more than their base salary with allowances, irregular hours and overtime. For example, after 10 years experience, a staff grade physiotherapist takes home 47k. The average staff grade nurse takes home 51K.

Lastly, it's clear that some professions are a lot harder to get into others. Just look at the differences in CAO points. If nursing pay basic is increased to match these professions, the average nurse will take home 25% more than people in these professions who don't have the same allowances, overtime etc. This will build up a lot of resentment with these and other professions - the former A students will start to feel they're at the bottom of the class in terms of pay and the threat of large scale industrial action will increase.

CAO Points 2018:

Physiotherapy
UL: 566
Trinity: 543
UCD: 545
RCS 532

Speech & Language
Trinity: 520
NUIG: 529
UCC: 509

Occupational Therapy
UCC: 522
Trinity: 507
NUIG: 521

General Nursing
UCC 440
Trinity: 408
UCD: 402
NUIG: 445

Not really fair saying that nurses take home more than physio’s due to their working overtime and irregular hours !! Granted nurses work shift but it’s not fair saying overtime brings it up !! You think overtime should be compulsory? Try finding a physio after 6pm or on a weekend !!

peterjmaxwell

facehugger99 wrote: »

The only people who peddle that lie are the nurses and the terminally stupid.

I’ll presume you’re a nurse.

I'm neither but my wife is a nurse and unless you've heard the horror stories I've heard for the last 10 year you know nothing.

Tell me this, if pay parity is out of the question, how do you suggest we solve the recruitment and retention problem? How do we get enough nurses hired (who are actually nurses and not someone who showed up to a recruitment fair abroad and said they were a nurse without any checks) to fill the shortfall we have now?

I dont blame new graduates leaving immediately, they're forced to work for nothing for 3 years doing all same tasks and having the same repsonibilities as a regular qualified nurse. They _should_ be there with supervision, with someone checking over the work they do but instead the HSe treat them as a regular staff number and count them in ward staffing figures. A trainee nurse on my wife's ward was taken off night duty and sent to open an overnight ward on her own with no supervision and two care assistants to help (two care assistants who were earning more than the trainee nurse would earn if they had qualified and were actually being paid to do the job they were).

There is a retirement crisis looming with all of the foreign nurses who were hired in during the last strike who have early retirement written into their contracts. My wife's ward has lost 30% of their nurses in the last year with no replacements and another 40% are due to retire in the next 3 years and there is nobody there to fill that gap.

Goldengirl

Greengrant wrote: »

People are wealthier than ever on average, poor people today are better off than 20 years ago who were better off than poor people 40 years ago and so on. Let "greedy" people make as much money as they want, that brings jobs and innovation.

Trickle down does it? I don't think the increasing child poverty and homelessness bears that out.

Twenty Grand

hawkelady wrote: »

Not really fair saying that nurses take home more than physio’s due to their working overtime and irregular hours !! Granted nurses work shift but it’s not fair saying overtime brings it up !! You think overtime should be compulsory? Try finding a physio after 6pm or on a weekend !!

Also, since when has the number of points related to the difficulty of a course??

That's news to me..

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

Both nurses and teachers individually generally do a good job. That is recognized in the their pay as well as non-pay elements of their employment. Don't try pretending that those who dont accept the present hostage-taking of the sick and dependent are somehow anti nurse.

How would anyone take your comments as anything otherwise?

Goldengirl

Goldengirl wrote: »

Trickle down does it? I don't think the increasing child poverty and homelessness bears that out.

Skangers breeding like foooook to get priority on housing lists seems to have backfired for many.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

How would anyone take your comments as anything otherwise?

I have not denigrated nurses' professionalism. I have said that I think that nurses individually generally do a good job. I am not anti-nurse in any way.



However, I think the current infliction on the sick and needy shames them - at least it should do. It won't help their image as a profession in the longer term. And the INMO's persistent ruse that this is primarily about recruitment and retention should embarrass them. It is about money across the board, plain and simple.


By the way, you have repeatedly made incorrect assertions on this thread without acceptance of error, eg, that the demand is not for across the board increases, that the INMO did not (by ballot) accept the Public Service Stability Agreement. Your posts should come with a large pinch of salt!

pleas advice

Deleted User wrote: »

I would fully support nurses if this strike was about conditions but it's not. It's about getting a 12% pay increase.

Didn't they say it wasnt about pay though?

c.p.w.g.w

Will the nurses escalation of strike action, back fire on them with regards the support from the public?

Goldengirl

facehugger99 wrote: »

They were a massive factor - I would say the biggest factor in the length and depth of the recession caused to the country.

Only a fool would claim otherwise.

The PS were also shielded from the worst of the crash while hundreds of thousands of private sector workers faced redundancy and emigration.

The bitching and moaning from the pampered PS brigade over the very minor cuts they had to 'endure' is nauseating as is the constant clamoring to get their snouts back into the trough as soon as the economy showed sign of improvement.

Oh my God, only a fool would listen to you!
Such bitterness towards people working in the public sector, because of the " safe job" , twisted by people with a financial interest in the media to direct their anger st the Joe soaps busy doing their jobs when the crash happened. Never mind the fact that half of the households in the country were relying on the PS job to pay the mortgage and keep their heads above water!
As Wanderer said nothing to do with the public service pay , the property bubble and extreme lending by the banks along with an unfavourable credit crisis worldwide , was the cause. The governments reliance on stamp duty boosts to pay rather than normal taxation for everyday spending, and then the bank guarantees, followed by bank bailouts , was what crushed our country.

Goldengirl

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They could pay the nurses and midwives and just say the hospital went up another billion, nobody seems to know who organised that.

Comments like that...are welcome on this thread, lol! )

Goldengirl

Edgware wrote: »

Why should some nurse sitting on her arse taking blood samples between tea breaks get the same money as some nurse below in Accident and Emergency on a Friday night dealing with drunken scumbags?

Day wards? Endoscopy Units? Disability and Elderly ? Another poster with no idea ...8(

1641

peterjmaxwell wrote: »

Tell me this, if pay parity is out of the question, how do you suggest we solve the recruitment and retention problem? QUOTE]


But our pay scales do not compare unfavourably with Australia and the UK, where most who emigrate apparently go. The Public Service Pay Commission (with significant union people on board) concluded :



“Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.



So they must be leaving for other reasons. Some probably because they want to see the world, experience different cultures, work in different environments, etc. There is not much we can do about that. Some others may go because of issues in our system, eg, to do with career development, supervision, further training, etc. etc. The management side and (this evening) the Government have offered to meet to discuss how these type of issues could be addressed. The Pay Commission recommended targetted increases in selected specialities. The INMO have rejected any of this. They want increase for everyone, plain and simple (although they pocketed the increases in the public service pay agreement).



By the way, the UK has a shortage of nurses because they decimated their training places during the recession and have not recovered from this. They obviously find it cheaper to take our nurses out of training than to provide sufficient training places themselves.There probably isn't much we can do about this.

TheRiverman

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I'd say they thought the government would have caved by now, good to see them standing firm.

Disrupting the lives of sick people just for a pay rise.

More ignorance of the full facts of this strike.

Goldengirl

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Does a Dublin weighting make sense in the long term?
The only major difference between Dublin and other urban centres is the cost of accommodation.

If that was to level out over the next 5 years then youd be back tonight two tier system.

If it levelled out , good ,then get rid of it. Dublin costs more , from accomodstionn and property tax alone. I think all workers should get a tax credit to help or an allowance, while it is such an issue. Cork too if it is an issue.