Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Oh my God, only a fool would listen to you!
Such bitterness towards people working in the public sector, because of the " safe job" , twisted by people with a financial interest in the media to direct their anger st the Joe soaps busy doing their jobs when the crash happened. Never mind the fact that half of the households in the country were relying on the PS job to pay the mortgage and keep their heads above water!
As Wanderer said nothing to do with the public service pay , the property bubble and extreme lending by the banks along with an unfavourable credit crisis worldwide , was the cause. The governments reliance on stamp duty boosts to pay rather than normal taxation for everyday spending, and then the bank guarantees, followed by bank bailouts , was what crushed our country.

For someone who relies on simplistic gibberish you are very quick to label others as fools. You are right about one thing, though, this has been addressed ad nauseum on this thread, usually when someone spouts the " but it was nothing to do with the public sector line" ( by wanderer, among others). Noone has said the public sector caused the crash, but they were a big factor in the crisis in the public finances due to the foolish benchmarking. Go back and read earlier posts if you are interested - but you are not, right ?

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Trickle down does it? I don't think the increasing child poverty and homelessness bears that out.

As if the strikers give two hoots about child poverty and homelessness. If they get their fat increase there will be less in the kitty to go around. It will be precisely these and similar areas that will suffer, eg, homecare packages, home helps, respite care, etc.

Goldengirl

hawkelady wrote: »

Not really fair saying that nurses take home more than physio’s due to their working overtime and irregular hours !! Granted nurses work shift but it’s not fair saying overtime brings it up !! You think overtime should be compulsory? Try finding a physio after 6pm or on a weekend !!

Physios do do on-call . Not much , but they do some. Never seen an OT or Speech therapist out of hours , mind you,

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

As if the strikers give two hoots about child poverty and homelessness. If they get their fat increase there will be less in the kitty to go around. It will be precisely these and similar areas that will suffer, eg, homecare packages, home helps, respite care, etc.

I don't agree with you . Nurses in all areas advocate for improvements, but you can't say that because you want to paint nurses as evil money grabbers .

pjohnson

Goldengirl wrote: »

I don't agree with you . Nurses in all areas advocate for improvements, but you can't say that because you want to paint nurses as evil money grabbers .

So you think they would end the strike if everything but the pay rise was fixed for them? If they aren't money grabbers that should be agreeable right?

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

I don't agree with you . Nurses in all areas advocate for improvements, but you can't say that because you want to paint nurses as evil money grabbers .

Your term, not mine. I have never used it and don't at all believe nurses are evil. But I do believe that the strike is wrong and shameful, and all about money, pure and simple.


Lots of people advocate for improvements - it hardly something to feel too virtuous about. Prioritising these improvements over personal gain would be a different matter.

Goldengirl

Goldengirl wrote: »

I don't agree with you . Nurses in all areas advocate for improvements, but you can't say that because you want to paint nurses as evil money grabbers .

The INMO literally contradicted you a few hours ago, rejecting Govt talks on improving conditions bar pay.

You are not the voice of nurses so please drop the holier than thou attitude. They are out for their cash grab. Despite having already agreed to increases this year and next.

Miike

salonfire wrote: »

The INMO literally contradicted you a few hours ago, rejecting Govt talks on improving conditions bar pay.

I have to agree with you there. Even if they went to these talks as a method of opening meaningful dialogue it would have been something. I was really surprised by the language used by INMO when speaking to the media about it too!

This is starting to look like a race to the bottom for everyone involved. It's a delicate subject for certain - GP rallies too on Wed . There's a lot going down.

Wheeliebin30

Miike wrote: »

I have to agree with you there. Even if they went to these talks as a method of opening meaningful dialogue it would have been something. I was really surprised by the language used by INMO when speaking to the media about it too!

This is starting to look like a race to the bottom for everyone involved. It's a delicate subject for certain - GP rallies too on Wed . There's a lot going down.

You couldn’t paint the nurses in such a holy light only two days ago, what’s changed your mind?

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

I have not denigrated nurses' professionalism. I have said that I think that nurses individually generally do a good job. I am not anti-nurse in any way.



However, I think the current infliction on the sick and needy shames them - at least it should do. It won't help their image as a profession in the longer term. And the INMO's persistent ruse that this is primarily about recruitment and retention should embarrass them. It is about money across the board, plain and simple.


By the way, you have repeatedly made incorrect assertions on this thread without acceptance of error, eg, that the demand is not for across the board increases, that the INMO did not (by ballot) accept the Public Service Stability Agreement. Your posts should come with a large pinch of salt!

You are right . Nurses did reject the PSPC as opposed to PSSA ( had to recorrect that twice on autocorrect and should have edited my post ) I did think that the increase applied was only to staff nurse grade, so I was incorrect
I do think you are being anti nurse in your statements. The strike is to improve staffing and retention, and really is a last stand of a very tired , desperate workforce. Nurses are not strike happy , money grabbers , as I think a lot of people know, else , as many of you have said , they should have gone into other jobs. This is what makes striking at all , difficult. But I think people should be warned , things have deteriorated to such a level, with no politicians listening , that nurses need to take action like this is extreme indeed..

Goldengirl

salonfire wrote: »

The INMO literally contradicted you a few hours ago, rejecting Govt talks on improving conditions bar pay.

You are not the voice of nurses so please drop the holier than thou attitude. They are out for their cash grab. Despite having already agreed to increases this year and next.

They have ruled out talks that do not include pay. Conditions alone are a sop!

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

Your term, not mine. I have never used it and don't at all believe nurses are evil. But I do believe that the strike is wrong and shameful, and all about money, pure and simple.


Lots of people advocate for improvements - it hardly something to feel too virtuous about. Prioritising these improvements over personal gain would be a different matter.

No I am quoting from the poster before, but that's what you have implied , more than once.
Nurses are advocates for patients , every day , that is our role. It's not virtuous , it's just what we do!

Goldengirl

Goldengirl wrote: »

They have ruled out talks that do not include pay. Conditions alone are a sop!

Exactly, it's all a sop.

All the tear jerking stories about the conditions is just pure propaganda. Pay is their primary concern.

If the conditions were so intolerable, why reject talks to improve them.

Miike

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You couldn’t paint the nurses in such a holy light only two days ago, what’s changed your mind?

I had a big long winded reply typed out until I saw your username. No point in trying to get into educated, logical debate with you. I'll keep it simple:
I still support the nurses but I fear the INMO might be on the road of throwing all their toys out of the pram. Rejecting talks is one thing but the way they went about it is another.

Edit: I feel like I need to add to this - Conditions of work were supposed to be addressed in 2017, by an agreement between unions and government. This is the reason they rejected these talks again. It's the same story of yesteryear on broken promises. However, INMO could have just reiterated that instead of going down the route of "This is disrespectful". I would suggest they change their approach and try to engage in any and all talks to see what can be done to solve this before it gets seriously ugly for everyone involved. This will become an issue of media chess and optics, which is going to take from the substance of the strikes. At least, in my opinion that is.

Goldengirl

Salonfire,

Goldengirl wrote: »

You are right . Nurses did reject the PSPC as opposed to PSSA......
I owe you that ...

However....
.
I do think you are being anti nurse in your statements. The strike is to improve staffing and retention, and really is a last stand of a very tired , desperate workforce. Nurses are not strike happy , money grabbers , as I think a lot of people know, else , as many of you have said , they should have gone into other jobs. This is what makes striking at all , difficult. But I think people should be warned , things have deteriorated to such a level, with no politicians listening , that nurses need to take action like this is extreme indeed..

I am requoting this because this is what I said a few posts up , and is what I still say, despite your cynicism .

pjohnson

Goldengirl wrote: »

They have ruled out talks that do not include pay. Conditions alone are a sop!

So pay is what they care about. Good you admit that much anyway.

Did a nurse on the Claire Byrne show just say that fundamentally it comes down to money?

Just before the break there.

pjohnson

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Did a nurse on the Claire Byrne show just say that fundamentally it comes down to money?

Just before the break there.

The mask and "concern for others" always drops away!

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

YThe strike is to improve staffing and retention, and really is a last stand of a very tired , desperate workforce. .

Goldengirl wrote: »

They have ruled out talks that do not include pay. Conditions alone are a sop!

Are your comments above not contradictory? If it is just about retention then discuss retention issues. I think the INMO is being disingenuous about this. And I think many individual nurses have convinced themselves that this strike is all for altruistic reasons because that view fits more comfortably with their self-image as the caring profession par excellance.

I will repeat what I said in response to Peterjmaxwell (post 2049):

But our pay scales do not compare unfavourably with Australia and the UK, where most who emigrate apparently go. The Public Service Pay Commission (with significant union people on board) concluded :

“Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.

So they must be leaving for other reasons. Some probably because they want to see the world, experience different cultures, work in different environments, etc. There is not much we can do about that. Some others may go because of issues in our system, eg, to do with career development, supervision, further training, etc. etc. The management side and (this evening) the Government have offered to meet to discuss how these type of issues could be addressed. The Pay Commission recommended targetted increases in selected specialities. The INMO have rejected any of this. They want increase for everyone, plain and simple (although they pocketed the increases in the public service pay agreement).

By the way, the UK has a shortage of nurses because they decimated their training places during the recession and have not recovered from this. They obviously find it cheaper to take our nurses out of training than to provide sufficient training places themselves.There probably isn't much we can do about this.

FixdePitchmark

Pay equalisation is a ticking time bomb.

Pay deals during crash that caused a difference don't work.

Fair play to the kids calling the government and the compliance of unions in this area.

Fair play to the nurses.

But they should go all out.

When these deals were being done the bond holders were getting paid and now the government continue to refuse apple money.

alloywheel

1641 wrote: »

But our pay scales do not compare unfavourably with Australia and the UK, where most who emigrate apparently go. The Public Service Pay Commission (with significant union people on board) concluded :

“Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English , a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with and higher than , and the UK,” notes the spending review.

Well said. Given the national debt has multiplied so much between 2007 and 2017 ( from 40 billion to about 200 billion?) why would our government borrow even more to pay our already very well paid (compared to most countries around the world) nurses? They have job security and good pensions and high absenteeism, in most peoples opinion I know they have a neck going on strike.

ILikeBananas wrote: »

The Irish Times Politics podcast discussed this during the week. They thought that it might be a hard sell to the public based on that fact that, including allowances:

• The average pay was €58k
• 80% of nurses are paid > €40k
• Graduates start on €36k

I suspect that the union will tend to steer the conversation away from the above figures since the general public might lose support for the nurses if they discovered that they were being paid more than themselves.

You were proved correct

KaneToad

Ok, so INMO state that the strike is about staffing levels and retention. That sounds reasonable to me.

Their assertion that the ONLY WAY to improve staffing levels and retention is to pay more is where, I believe, their argument is unreasonable.

I think they (INMO) are very unwise to refuse to talk to govt side about staffing levels & retention issues. How do they know that the govt don't have some suggestions that would solve those two burning problems. Granted, it's unlikely they do but it would serve the INMO well to at least be seen to hear them out.

Mrsmum

I'd say a lot of nurses do actually think they are badly paid in comparison to nurses in other countries even though they are actually not. The male nurse in the Claire Byrne show just now who said it did come down to money definitely did genuinely seem to believe that. And of course when anyone goes abroad what do they always tell everyone back home except that things are totally fantastic over there which feeds into this narrative that the grass is much greener away. So imo nurses have themselves convinced of 'facts' that aren't facts at all.

tayto lover

Mrsmum wrote: »

I'd say a lot of nurses do actually think they are badly paid in comparison to nurses in other countries even though they are actually not. The male nurse in the Claire Byrne show just now who said it did come down to money definitely did genuinely seem to believe that. And of course when anyone goes abroad what do they always tell everyone back home except that things are totally fantastic over there which feeds into this narrative that the grass is much greener away. So imo nurses have themselves convinced of 'facts' that aren't facts at all.

Their take home pay abroad is probably much better.
We’re robbed with taxes and charges here.

alloywheel

KaneToad wrote: »

Ok, so INMO state that the strike is about staffing levels and retention.

It is not unknown for a STARTLING 100,000 working days to be lost in one month in the HSE due to absenteeism. Come on, many of us have friends or relations who are nurses and have told us stories of their many days off when they do not really need to.

alloywheel

tayto lover wrote: »

We’re robbed with taxes and charges here.

Correct, to pay the public sector. Where else do you think the money goes?

eagle eye

HamSarris wrote:

Second, the take home pay of nurses currently matches these professions given that the average nurse makes 25% more than their base salary with allowances, irregular hours and overtime. For example, after 10 years experience, a staff grade physiotherapist takes home 47k. The average staff grade nurse takes home 51K.

Ok then, no nights or ungodly hours and weekends for nurses anymore and pay them the same as physiotherapists.
See how that works.
You do realise how much of a person's life is given up by working nights and weekends and until 8pm every day shift?
I did it for many years and the quality of life was crap. I don't do it anymore, I have every bank holiday off now and every weekend. Life is so easy. I'm earning less but I don't mind that because my life is so much better.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Their take home pay abroad is probably much better.
We’re robbed with taxes and charges here.

I'm an engineer and emigrated for a few years when the arse fell out of it here, you'd want to be getting a good few quid extra in to your hand to make it worthwhile really.

Taxes can be high abroad too, accommodation and travel increase as well, flights are pricey if you want to come home, particularly at times like christmas.

I enjoyed it but its not all sweetness and light, most irish I worked with came home.

Elemonator

[Deleted User] wrote: »

are you claiming that public sector wages caused ..... the economic crash

I said problems, I didn’t say economic crash. Wouldn’t be wrong to say they contributed though. Contributed to the bubble and the budget deficit.

Twenty Grand

Elemonator wrote: »

I said problems, I didn’t say economic crash. Wouldn’t be wrong to say they contributed though. Contributed to the bubble and the budget deficit.

Ordinary Joe public contributed far far more to the crash than any public sector wages.

alloywheel

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Ordinary Joe public contributed far far more to the crash than any public sector wages.

Do not forget that public pay growth ran far ahead of the private sector in the years leading up to the crisis in 2007/2008. It was paid by stamp duty and other taxes which was unsustainable. At the moment our elephant in the room is the huge percentage (by international norms) of our total tax take paid by multinationals here. That is not sustainable either. It is arguable we should not have increased the national debt from 40 billion to 200 billion during the past 10 or 12 years just to throw much of it on wages instead of proper investment in infrastructure etc.

backspin.

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Ordinary Joe public contributed far far more to the crash than any public sector wages.

Property was the main reason for the crash. So many people buying 2nd, 3rd, 4th houses. Driving more and more building and often in places where there wasn't realistic demand. Developers borrowing silly money from the banks, Joe Soap borrowing money from the banks. It all lead to the crash.

Sections of the media decided the PS were to blame, in particular INM (Irish News & Media). I remember it well, the attacks on the PS were relentless.

alloywheel

backspin. wrote: »

Property was the main reason for the crash. So many people buying 2nd, 3rd, 4th houses.

Ask any auctioneer who were the biggest buyers of holiday homes by far during the crash, and they will tell you it was teachers and lecturers.

As someone else said "As much as it makes me sick I will vote Fine Gael if they stand up to the entire public sector about the annual fecal merry go round fat cat toilet pay rise flush that happens every year"

backspin.

alloywheel wrote: »

Ask any auctioneer who were the biggest buyers of holiday homes by far during the crash, and they will tell you it was teachers and lecturers.

And Guards, but it wasn't just them. I remember so many of the mini Johnny Ronans thinking they re the next big property developer. Tradesmen turned property developers. Look at all the houses built in places like Roscommon and Leitrim. It wasn't Lectures there.

alloywheel

Correct. And we should learn from past mistakes. Our nurses are some of the highest paid in the world by all accounts, with one of the highest absenteeism rates and a great pension.

nb most of the tradesmen and mini Johnny Ronans lost it all, many emigrated and some had to change career and retrain, and about 6 or 7 I know committed suicide. No job security there.

Dakotabigone

To pcp a new mini isn’t cheap.

Corruptedmorals

Day 2 looming and they're not even in proper talks yet. It's getting harder and harder to deal with in terms of rescheduling. Post operative and urgent patients are a whole other headache. Hitting 3 Tuesdays and 3 Thursdays in a row is so frustrating...all hospitals work the same. Those are the same theatre lists and the same outpatient clinics being cancelled. We are running out of space. Hopefully the pressure tactic works and they engage in proper talks this week..

pjohnson

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Day 2 looming and they're not even in proper talks yet. It's getting harder and harder to deal with in terms of rescheduling. Post operative and urgent patients are a whole other headache. Hitting 3 Tuesdays and 3 Thursdays in a row is so frustrating...all hospitals work the same. Those are the same theatre lists and the same outpatient clinics being cancelled. We are running out of space. Hopefully the pressure tactic works and they engage in proper talks this week..

What talks?

They have no interest in talking. They just want their money, patients/talk be damned.

Greengrant

Goldengirl wrote: »

Trickle down does it? I don't think the increasing child poverty and homelessness bears that out.

Do you have statistics to support the assertion that child poverty is increasing?

facehugger99

50,000 appointments canceled today.

This really is disgraceful behaviour by an already well-paid group of workers. They are holding a vulnerable section of the public to ransom to squeeze a few extra quid out of the taxpayers.

The Nurses should be really ashamed of themselves.

FixdePitchmark

Someone probably will die during action.

Will be interesting how that changes dynamics.

Mad_maxx

Mrsmum wrote: »

I'd say a lot of nurses do actually think they are badly paid in comparison to nurses in other countries even though they are actually not. The male nurse in the Claire Byrne show just now who said it did come down to money definitely did genuinely seem to believe that. And of course when anyone goes abroad what do they always tell everyone back home except that things are totally fantastic over there which feeds into this narrative that the grass is much greener away. So imo nurses have themselves convinced of 'facts' that aren't facts at all.

"received wisdom" is a powerful thing

Majority of the public instinctively believe nurses are poorly paid too, facts don't matter

Mad_maxx

backspin. wrote: »

Property was the main reason for the crash. So many people buying 2nd, 3rd, 4th houses. Driving more and more building and often in places where there wasn't realistic demand. Developers borrowing silly money from the banks, Joe Soap borrowing money from the banks. It all lead to the crash.

Sections of the media decided the PS were to blame, in particular INM (Irish News & Media). I remember it well, the attacks on the PS were relentless.

The ramping up of public sector pay was only made possible by the revenue from the construction sector so the public sector gained handsomely even the cash cow was itself rotten

Of course the old saying "you can give a dog a bone"
.
The government didn't cut public sector pay as much as was proportionate to the loss in stamp duty revenue so the gap was filled with income tax increases and severely cutting the pay and conditions of those who entered the public sector post crash, as usual in this country the older folk were shielded

facehugger99

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The ramping up of public sector pay was only made possible by the revenue from the construction sector so the public sector gained handsomely even the cash cow was itself rotten

Of course the old saying "you can give a dog a bone"
.
The government didn't cut public sector pay as much as was proportionate to the loss in stamp duty revenue so the gap was filled with income tax increases and severely cutting the pay and conditions of those who entered the public sector post crash, as usual in this country the older folk were shielded

True, but there was also a huge cut in Capital spending which exacerbated job losses in the construction industry.

It's a lot more palatable for politicians to can infrastructural projects than to tell the nurses, guards and teachers they have to lose a few more quid in their pay packets.

Of course you can see the impact of these cuts now as housing and congestion are becoming bigger issues.

The public service are the last to suffer cuts and the first to seek "restoration":rolleyes: to boom time pay levels.

Of course, that's not even enough for most of them and the nurses are being used as the stalking horse to squeeze even more money from the tax-payers.

Will the Government stand firm in the face of such blatant greed and blackmail?

Who the fcuk knows - this being Ireland, it's doubtful.

marthabarry

I believe the nurses should stay within the agreement already in place.
Holding patients to ransom is not a nice thing to do - many are really worried about cancelled appointments. Some have very serious problems that can't wait. Why would nurses cause such problems to the people they profess to care about?
Nurses do a great job but are not any more 'special' than anyone else. I regularly attend hospital and not all nurses jobs are equal - perhaps an allowance could be given to those with the more stressful / high pressure jobs.
I think they're doing the wrong thing in striking - they are not badly off. Perhaps they could have fought this in another way?? A work to rule or something?


Having said all that it's no wonder people get annoyed when we see the rises Varadkar and the TD's are getting?

Wheeliebin30

marthabarry wrote: »

I believe the nurses should stay within the agreement already in place.
Holding patients to ransom is not a nice thing to do - many are really worried about cancelled appointments. Some have very serious problems that can't wait. Why would nurses cause such problems to the people they profess to care about?
Nurses do a great job but are not any more 'special' than anyone else. I regularly attend hospital and not all nurses jobs are equal - perhaps an allowance could be given to those with the more stressful / high pressure jobs.
I think they're doing the wrong thing in striking - they are not badly off. Perhaps they could have fought this in another way?? A work to rule or something?


Having said all that it's no wonder people get annoyed when we see the rises Varadkar and the TD's are getting?

The rises are the part of pay restoration right across the ps.

It’s not a pay rise.

Mad_maxx

facehugger99 wrote: »

True, but there was also a huge cut in Capital spending which exacerbated job losses in the construction industry.

It's a lot more palatable for politicians to can infrastructural projects than to tell the nurses, guards and teachers they have to lose a few more quid in their pay packets.

Of course you can see the impact of these cuts now as housing and congestion are becoming bigger issues.

The public service are the last to suffer cuts and the first to seek "restoration":rolleyes: to boom time pay levels.

Of course, that's not even enough for most of them and the nurses are being used as the stalking horse to squeeze even more money from the tax-payers.

Will the Government stand firm in the face of such blatant greed and blackmail?

Who the fcuk knows - this being Ireland, it's doubtful.

Every single political party vigorously courts the public sector vote and the media portrays public sector grievance as much greater in importance

alloywheel

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Every single political party vigorously courts the public sector vote

Thats what helped created the problems in the last boom / bust cycle. Our public servants are still among the highest paid in the western world, with the best pensions and highest absenteeism rates. Our Taoiseach gives bad example from the top down, he is overpaid too. And there are far too many overpaid politicians in the country too, given our small population.

Graces7

pjohnson wrote: »

What talks?

They have no interest in talking. They just want their money, patients/talk be damned.

see

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0205/1027557-nurses_strike_day_2/

eagle eye

alloywheel wrote:

Thats what helped created the problems in the last boom / bust cycle. Our public servants are still among the highest paid in the western world, with the best pensions and highest absenteeism rates. Our Taoiseach gives bad example from the top down, he is overpaid too. And there are far too many overpaid politicians in the country too, given our small population.

Yes and all the top.paid workers get the same % increase as the lower paid public sector worker which is increasing the gap in wages all the time.
Why does a guy earning 100k + need a raise?
You can give a raise to all workers on basic pay of 60k or less which would seem fair to me.
The reason I pick that number is because I worked out that a single income family with three kids on 55k is as well off as a welfare recipient with a wife and three kids with all the trimmings like rent allowance, back to school allowance, fuel allowance and of course the medical card with free drugs.