Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

ELM327

Disgraceful.
Claiming about conditions and stress of the job. It's as if they applied for a cushy desk job and were pushed into nursing by accident.

Newsflash: There is no recruitment crisis. Pay is being increased in line with agreed pay deals. I hope the government do not cave and the labour court rules in their favour.

Nurses do a great job and are respected rightfully in the community for it. I'd never do their job even for double my salary. But it was clear from the outset the nature of the work, and the pay agreements are in place.

#IStandWithSimonAndLeo

Twenty Grand

ELM327 wrote: »

Disgraceful.
Claiming about conditions and stress of the job. It's as if they applied for a cushy desk job and were pushed into nursing by accident.

Newsflash: There is no recruitment crisis. Pay is being increased in line with agreed pay deals. I hope the government do not cave and the labour court rules in their favour.

Nurses do a great job and are respected rightfully in the community for it. I'd never do their job even for double my salary. But it was clear from the outset the nature of the work, and the pay agreements are in place.

#IStandWithSimonAndLeo

You're dead right. Instead of trying to improve pay and conditions we should just be happy with our lot and accept that things will never improve.
Sure they knew the pay and conditions before they signed up, 10, 15, 20 years ago.

jay0109

So just that we're clear on this....the Nurses are in a deal that gives them a 7% pay rise by late 2020. And they also want a 12% payrise separate to that.
So about a 20% pay rise in 3 or so years. Not bad, not bad at all

alloywheel

jay0109 wrote: »

So just that we're clear on this....the Nurses are in a deal that gives them a 7% pay rise by late 2020. And they also want a 12% payrise separate to that.
So about a 20% pay rise in 3 or so years. Not bad, not bad at all

Especially when they are already among the highest paid in the world. What planet are they living on. The county is 200 billion in debt, and Brexit etc is coming, and they should be glad to have secure, pensionable jobs.

ethical

Why the use of false figures when both the HSE and INMO discuss salaries.
Hse say starting salary is €37,000,
Inmo say starting salary is €31,000

The truth would be nice to hear.

It reminds me of the Teaching profession in that a starting salary may be around €35,000........which is bloody good!!....... BUT the small print tell you that that starting salary is broken up amongst 4 or 5 teachers earning sh1t all and they would be better off on the Dole or in Saudi which is where most of them end up!........same as for nurses.

Great to hear Paschal and Young Harris saying they love nurses (well Harris definitely does!!!) Paschal I,I,I Donohue is a different kettle of fish,a good needle administered in the right place might calm him down a little!

alloywheel

ethical wrote: »

Why the use of false figures when both the HSE and INMO discuss salaries.

That was discussed earlier in the thread,
"including allowances:
The average pay was €58k
80% of nurses are paid > €40k
Graduates start on €36k"

Twenty Grand

alloywheel wrote: »

That was discussed earlier in the thread,
"including allowances:
The average pay was €58k
80% of nurses are paid > €40k
Graduates start on €36k"

This was all discussed earlier in the thread and completely debunked.
This whole thread is going around in circles.

ELM327

Twenty Grand wrote: »

You're dead right. Instead of trying to improve pay and conditions we should just be happy with our lot and accept that things will never improve.
Sure they knew the pay and conditions before they signed up, 10, 15, 20 years ago.

Except there is already an agreement to improve pay.


So yeah.

Twenty Grand

ELM327 wrote: »

Except there is already an agreement to improve pay.


So yeah.

You are aware this conversation started long before you arrived?
The answers to all your questions and misheld beliefs are already in this thread.

ELM327

Twenty Grand wrote: »

You are aware this conversation started long before you arrived?
The answers to all your questions and misheld beliefs are already in this thread.

Is there no agreement to improve pay?


Excuse my "beliefs".

https://www.per.gov.ie/en/public-service-pay-policy/public-service-stability-agreement/
http://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/PSSA-2018-2020-Benefit-Tables.pdf

TheRiverman

ELM327 wrote: »

Disgraceful.
Claiming about conditions and stress of the job. It's as if they applied for a cushy desk job and were pushed into nursing by accident.

Newsflash: There is no recruitment crisis. Pay is being increased in line with agreed pay deals. I hope the government do not cave and the labour court rules in their favour.

Nurses do a great job and are respected rightfully in the community for it. I'd never do their job even for double my salary. But it was clear from the outset the nature of the work, and the pay agreements are in place.

#IStandWithSimonAndLeo

If there is no recruitment crisis how come the nurse to patient ratio in Hospitals here is so high ?

ELM327

TheRiverman wrote: »

If there is no recruitment crisis how come the nurse to patient ratio in Hospitals here is so high ?

Bad middle management.
There are too many middle managers and the HSE is a black hole of funding.


If the nurses pay demands were cost neutral and funded by streamlining and making many middle managers redundant then I would be in favour of it.

1641

ethical wrote: »

Why the use of false figures when both the HSE and INMO discuss salaries.
Hse say starting salary is €37,000,
Inmo say starting salary is €31,000

The truth would be nice to hear.

Twenty Grand wrote: »

You're dead right. Instead of trying to improve pay and conditions we should just be happy with our lot and accept that things will never improve.
Sure they knew the pay and conditions before they signed up, 10, 15, 20 years ago.

We had a Pay Commission (with both union and employer reps). They said:


“Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.


The nurses have dismissed offers to talk re conditions.The Commission suggested further targeted allowances in key areas. The INMO have rejected talks regarding these. The nurses voted to accept the latest public service pay agreement but are now demanding 12% across the board increases.


It seem there are no shortage of people trying to sign up to the pay and conditions as they are. Or is it to get the benefit of the heavily subsidised third level training as a passport to "see the world"? See:

The Commission said that there were 5,494 first preference applications for 1,830 nursing and midwifery undergraduate places in 2018

weisses

ELM327 wrote: »

Is there no agreement to improve pay?


Excuse my "beliefs".

https://www.per.gov.ie/en/public-service-pay-policy/public-service-stability-agreement/
http://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/PSSA-2018-2020-Benefit-Tables.pdf

Is that not just to cover the sacrifices made with FEMPI

The benefits to different income groups range from 7.4 per cent for the lower paid to 6.2 per cent for the higher paid, over three years. Once again these proposals are progressive.They include restoration of pay cuts

https://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/Minister_Donohoe_publishes_the_Public_Service_Pay_and_Pensions_Bill_2017.html

TheRiverman

ELM327 wrote: »

Bad middle management.
There are too many middle managers and the HSE is a black hole of funding.


If the nurses pay demands were cost neutral and funded by streamlining and making many middle managers redundant then I would be in favour of it.

Unfortunately that wasn't sorted when the HSE was created,no streamlining then,just a big monster born.

ELM327

weisses wrote: »

Is that not just to cover the sacrifices made with FEMPI



https://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/Minister_Donohoe_publishes_the_Public_Service_Pay_and_Pensions_Bill_2017.html

They are pay raises from what they were on.

If they were not happy then they should not have signed up and committed to no further action until 2020.

TheRiverman wrote: »

Unfortunately that wasn't sorted when the HSE was created,no streamlining then,just a big monster born.

Agreed. But it could be done at any time. Here, it would be a win win IMO, give the nurses their pay rise but do it without costing anything extra to the taxpayer.


I'm not against the nurses, they do a great job, but they have an already agreed pay increment agreement and any exceptions to this should not be a cost to the taxpayer.

Idbatterim

There is clearly an issue with being able to keep nurses and doctors here. The outrageous marginal tax rate and cost of rent in Dublin being two huge factors. Look if they have over five hundred million to send up in smoke every budget on welfare increases, at a time of full employment. Then they can afford to hire more nurses ...

Idbatterim

alloywheel wrote: »

Correct, to pay the public sector. Where else do you think the money goes?

The world class welfare state. At least the public servants are working ! And I’m private sector by the way

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

The world class welfare state. At least the public servants are working ! And I’m private sector by the way

Oh come off it. Unemployment has fallen off a cliff. Vast majority of people are willing to work.

The majority of welfare spend is pensions.

Should the government take money from granny and give it to the nurses?

ELM327

Idbatterim wrote: »

There is clearly an issue with being able to keep nurses and doctors here. The outrageous marginal tax rate and cost of rent in Dublin being two huge factors. Look if they have over five hundred million to send up in smoke every budget on welfare increases, at a time of full employment. Then they can afford to hire more nurses ...

Again, if they cut long term dole to fund this increase, that would be a cost neutral increase and I'd be in favour of it for sure.


Marginal tax rates and rent in Dublin are not issues with nursing and are irrelevant to the pay debate

ELM327

salonfire wrote: »

Oh come off it. Unemployment has fallen off a cliff. Vast majority of people are willing to work.

The majority of welfare spend is pensions.

Should the government take money from granny and give it to the nurses?

Contributory pension should be untouched.


When people mention cutting welfare generally they mean people on long term "job seekers allowance"

1641

Idbatterim wrote: »

There is clearly an issue with being able to keep nurses and doctors here. The outrageous marginal tax rate and cost of rent in Dublin being two huge factors. Look if they have over five hundred million to send up in smoke every budget on welfare increases, at a time of full employment. Then they can afford to hire more nurses ...

There is no embargo on hiring nurses. The INMO have rejected the proposal to look at enhanced allowances in key areas of shortage.
The HSE is a basket case. We pay more for public health care than most countries in the OECD. This is not even considering the amount that people here pay in private health insurance because they feel they cannot depend on the public health system.
I believe nurses work hard individually (generally - as in any group, I suppose). But collectively all the Health Service unions contribute to the malaise and systemic inertia in the HSE (that is not exempting management at all).

Look at the difficulty in trying to redeploy people, re-assign roles, close and replace inefficient or ineffective services. Each union looks to what it can get for itself out of it - and not primarily about patient outcome. This is without looking to the Unions role in protecting "underperforming" staff.
We may not have as high a nurse:staff ratio as the OECD figures suggest.But we are certainly not low by comparative international standards. So clearly there are organizational and skill mix issues involved.


There is more than enough money in the HSE to provide a much better service. If all groups were prepared to engage without a self-protective agenda the service could be improved drastically and this should also make it a more attractive ans less stressful place to work.
Throwing more money at one group ( across all groups more likely) will achieve nothing. Reform first - and don't forget, when reform is on the agenda the hand will be out anyway.

Idbatterim

How is the cost of living irrelevant to the debate ? A poster mentioned virtually full employment. You know how many receive disability allowance here?!

It’s funny. Working People struggling as there is a cost attached to a twenty billion odd welfare state. Many who will probably never claim a cent in unemployment related welfare!

Some valid points in the post above. But what do you expect, the governments here have always. Been spineless. I’d blame them even more than the unions , who are representing their paying members. Look I think the unions in general are a joke. But I would put more blame on the governments.

Amirani

Talking to someone I know working in a Dublin hospital today, and apparently things are going pretty badly in light of the strike today. It's a non-emergency department, but there has been several incontinent patients left unattended for large amounts of time due to the lack of nursing staff. Management have requested that some nurses come in off the picket to help.

Nobody dying in this case, but having patients sitting in their own urine or feces for a long period of time is pretty awful. I'm sure there are similar situations being repeated across other non-emergency departments.

Idbatterim

“Nobody dying in this case, but having patients sitting in their own urine or feces for a long period of time is pretty awful. I'm sure there are similar situations being repeated across other non-emergency departments.” Get that waffler Harris in to care for them. Those overpaid morons should not have been given or accepted a pay increase!

speedboatchase

If horror stories emerge from today's strikes, who will the public side with? Not living in Ireland so can't get a good handle on the overall public perception.

omega man

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Will the nurses escalation of strike action, back fire on them with regards the support from the public?

Seems to be blind support from the public, well on social media at least. No one dare question their demands...

Tell me how

Idbatterim wrote: »

“Nobody dying in this case, but having patients sitting in their own urine or feces for a long period of time is pretty awful. I'm sure there are similar situations being repeated across other non-emergency departments.” Get that waffler Harris in to care for them. Those overpaid morons should not have been given or accepted a pay increase!

Their pay increase was part of the Public Sector pay deal, the same deal the nurses signed up to.

If they gave themselves an increase outside of that, there would rightly be uproar but, in this case, it is by the book.

TallGlass

I was thinking. If TDs and I think high Civil Servants got there pay restoration and didn't object to it at the time, are they not the ones after 'triggering' pay demands?

ELM327

Amirani wrote: »

Talking to someone I know working in a Dublin hospital today, and apparently things are going pretty badly in light of the strike today. It's a non-emergency department, but there has been several incontinent patients left unattended for large amounts of time due to the lack of nursing staff. Management have requested that some nurses come in off the picket to help.

Nobody dying in this case, but having patients sitting in their own urine or feces for a long period of time is pretty awful. I'm sure there are similar situations being repeated across other non-emergency departments.

Any nurse who refused to help there should be fired immediately.
That's disgusting.

Amirani

ELM327 wrote: »

Any nurse who refused to help there should be fired immediately.
That's disgusting.

In fairness, I'm fairly sure any nurse that has been called off the picket to help has done so. But still, the strike in the first place is definitely causing significant issues to patients and other hospital staff.

weisses

ELM327 wrote: »

They are pay raises from what they were on.

If they were not happy then they should not have signed up and committed to no further action until 2020.

If you look what was stated it is pay restoration after agreeing to cuts during the recession. If you want to be pedantic its a pay rise ... But we both know its a gift they paid for themselves.. Plus the huge pressure on nurses due to insufficient staffing levels... It all ads up

If all is so great with the Nursing profession in Ireland, Why are many graduates leaving as soon as they can ?

weisses

Amirani wrote: »

Talking to someone I know working in a Dublin hospital today, and apparently things are going pretty badly in light of the strike today. It's a non-emergency department, but there has been several incontinent patients left unattended for large amounts of time due to the lack of nursing staff. Management have requested that some nurses come in off the picket to help.

Nobody dying in this case, but having patients sitting in their own urine or feces for a long period of time is pretty awful. I'm sure there are similar situations being repeated across other non-emergency departments.

I thought HCA's are dealing with incontinent care,

weisses

weisses wrote: »

..........., Why are many graduates leaving as soon as they can ?

Perhaps that was always their plan?
Get qualified and head off for a few+ years.
All those who went to Oz etc a decade ago, most of them speak very favourably of the experience and many haven't come back.
Lots of nurses are from rural areas, total sh1t holes and they are chomping at the bit to foook off out of Ireland once qualified.

ELM327

weisses wrote: »

If you look what was stated it is pay restoration after agreeing to cuts during the recession. If you want to be pedantic its a pay rise ... But we both know its a gift they paid for themselves.. Plus the huge pressure on nurses due to insufficient staffing levels... It all ads up

If all is so great with the Nursing profession in Ireland, Why are many graduates leaving as soon as they can ?

Part of the agreement was no further increases and no strikes afair to 2020, agreed by unions.


So they should revoke all increases and go back to the pay prior to the agreement as the unions have reneged on their side.


I've no idea why nurses are leaving. There should be a clawback clause as we fund their education and qualification and let them leave. EG if you take the subsidized course and become a nurse then you must pay for the entire cost if you leave before 10 years service.

Wheeliebin30

weisses wrote: »

If you look what was stated it is pay restoration after agreeing to cuts during the recession. If you want to be pedantic its a pay rise ... But we both know its a gift they paid for themselves.. Plus the huge pressure on nurses due to insufficient staffing levels... It all ads up

If all is so great with the Nursing profession in Ireland, Why are many graduates leaving as soon as they can ?

It’s not it’s a pay rise.

Pay restoration is all still there as it’s a legal document.

Many graduates aren’t leaving.

Some are but it’s been established there is no problems with staff retention.

Once again all pure propaganda by the unions.

ELM327

Amirani wrote: »

In fairness, I'm fairly sure any nurse that has been called off the picket to help has done so. But still, the strike in the first place is definitely causing significant issues to patients and other hospital staff.

One would hope so. But their actions today are impacting cancer patients, patients with mental health issues, the most disadvantaged groups of society who need full time care.


How the nurses can sleep at night after abandoning someone with cancer or rescheduling their appointment for several months (which can be a long, long time for cancer to metastasize) is beyond me.

ELM327

Above all, if you don't like the job that *you chose* you can always reskill and go somewhere else. Plenty of others waiting to take the job from you*. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

(* there were 5 times as many applicants as there were places on nursing courses last year as per CAO)

Graces7

omega man wrote: »

Seems to be blind support from the public, well on social media at least. No one dare question their demands...

see

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0205/1027624-nurses-strike-reaction/

so much for the"this is not about pay" statements

and

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0204/1027540-patient-nurses-strike/

They are causing huge suffering .

weisses

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It’s not it’s a pay rise.

They include restoration of pay cuts ... according to the Minister

893bet

Graces7 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0204/1027540-patient-nurses-strike/

They are causing huge suffering .

That’s pretty poor.

Gonna get a lot worse before it gets better I suspect.

keyboard_cat

ELM327 wrote: »

Any nurse who refused to help there should be fired immediately.
That's disgusting.

Nurses should refuse to help in that situation that’s the HCA job you don’t need 4 years of training to help bring someone to the bathroom.

weisses

ELM327 wrote: »

One would hope so. But their actions today are impacting cancer patients, patients with mental health issues, the most disadvantaged groups of society who need full time care.


How the nurses can sleep at night after abandoning someone with cancer or rescheduling their appointment for several months (which can be a long, long time for cancer to metastasize) is beyond me.

Yes ... This is what lack off staffing causes

I think the figures of mistakes made by overworked Nurses and under staffing in general will shock you even more

BarryD2

Amirani wrote: »

Nobody dying in this case, but having patients sitting in their own urine or feces for a long period of time is pretty awful. I'm sure there are similar situations being repeated across other non-emergency departments.

Why would you need a third level college degree and €50K+ a year to change a nappy?

You'd have to have some sympathy for the nursing parity of pay argument. But it'll wear pretty thin with the public, if the strike goes on this week,

weisses

ELM327 wrote: »

Above all, if you don't like the job that *you chose* you can always reskill and go somewhere else. Plenty of others waiting to take the job from you*. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

(* there were 5 times as many applicants as there were places on nursing courses last year as per CAO)

I don't think trained nurses have an issue with nursing

Cut the drama ... its oozing from your posts

ELM327

keyboard_cat wrote: »

Nurses should refuse to help in that situation that’s the HCA job you don’t need 4 years of training to help bring someone to the bathroom.

So a nurse should refuse to help a patient in need? Lovely.
Nurse, HCA, Doctor, Surgeon they are all healthcare professionals.


My partner was a HCA for many years, so I'm all too aware of the ins and outs of that job. They are actually underpaid, unlike nursing.

ELM327

weisses wrote: »

I don't think trained nurses have an issue with nursing

Cut the drama ... its oozing from your posts

Cut the bull. it's oozing from your posts


If there's no issue then why are they abandoning their posts?

BarryD2

alloywheel wrote: »

Especially when they are already among the highest paid in the world. What planet are they living on. The county is 200 billion in debt, and Brexit etc is coming, and they should be glad to have secure, pensionable jobs.

Planet Dublin, Cork, Waterford & Galway in some cases, where it can difficult to afford rents etc. Serious consideration should be made for long term investment in moving hospitals out of cities and into towns/ villages with green field sites near road/rail infrastructure.

Cheaper to build, more accessible for the rest of the population, cheaper living, good quality of life. The only downside would be that city dwellers would have to travel just a wee bit outside their comfort zone, on the odd occasions that they need serious medical care.

keyboard_cat

ELM327 wrote: »

Above all, if you don't like the job that *you chose* you can always reskill and go somewhere else. Plenty of others waiting to take the job from you*. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

(* there were 5 times as many applicants as there were places on nursing courses last year as per CAO)

Who exactly is the plenty of other people waiting to take the job?
5 times as many cao applicants?
That doesn’t change the amount of people who actually get the course, it also doesn’t change the amount of people who drop out of college or get put off nursing during the degree and go back to college to study something new, or the many nurses who go abroad as they are offered more money training and oppertunities to specialize.
So who exactly are the plenty of people waiting to take the job? The handful who decide to stay in Ireland each year? Because you can be sure they are snapped up by the HSE instantly. Or do you plan on staffing the hospitals with the 17year olds who were to thick to get the points for nursing?

1641

BarryD2 wrote: »

Serious consideration should be made for long term investment in moving hospitals out of cities and into towns/ villages with green field sites near road/rail infrastructure.
Cheaper to build, more accessible for the rest of the population, cheaper living, good quality of life. The only downside would be that city dwellers would have to travel just a wee bit outside their comfort zone, on the odd occasions that they need serious medical care.

It would be interesting to see the "re-location" allowance demands for that one!