Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

tretorn

The twelve hour shifts are in reality thirteen hours by the time nurses hand over. This is probably okay in your twenties and thirties but a lot of nurses with families would be in their forties and fifties. The alternative though is 9 to 5 everyday and many nurses probably wouldnt choose this because if childcare is involved it would be much more expensive to have to pay childcare everyday.

Also if you do twelve hour shifts three shifts is a full working week, that could be Monday and Tuesday and Friday which means you get every Tuesday and Wednesday to do what you want. Some nurses work three nights in a month and they get about a thousand euros for this.

I dont think we are getting the full picture here. If they are on a max of 57,000 euros that is more than most people earn.

tayto lover

Time for both sides to sit down now and quit posturing.
We all know that they will always meet eventually.
The Govt are stupid for insisting that pay will not be discussed. That’s just stupid. Of course pay will be a big part of the discussions.

Inspector Coptoor

1641 wrote: »

Apart from the PRD everyone is subject to income tax, USC and PRSI and VAT. Any if all of the above groups get their demands either these deductions will increase or services and supports will be cut.
The PRD is extra but very few private sector workers have anything like the pension benefits of the public service.

I know how taxation works.

Point is that public sector workers pay more tax on earnings over €35k than Private Sector workers so any “increase” needs to be thought of in the context that a 10% increase is really only a 4% increase in net pay.

As for your claims about public sector pensions, more misinformation.
The very same nurses, teachers and other public sector workers affected by new entrants pay are also hit by a new, much more inferior pension based on career average earnings.

Public Sector workers from 2012 onwards will pay way more into a pension than they will ever get back unless they lives into their 90s100s

Graces7

mooreman09 wrote: »

I don't agree with this. People need to be treated with respect and hopefully its resolved with little impact on vulnerable people.

There is already great impact on very vulnerable patients. Who are suffering blamelessly.

TheRiverman

Anyone listen to the nurse on Liveline who has worked in Beaumont Hospital for many years.She had to go to Brussels to have a hip replacement due to the waiting list here.Having listened to her,I would say that Leo Varadkar,Simon Harris,Pascal Donoghue and all middle and senior management in the HSE should hang their heads in shame.Also all previous Taoisigh and Goverments that were responsible for this mess should do the same.

mooreman09

1641 wrote: »

Wow, you personally know a nurse, so your viewpoint is now more priveleged than anyone elses? I personally know (and respect) many nurses, so should that give me extra privelege points by your reasoning, no? If the nurse you know is that stressed/distressed then a pay rise is not going to mke any difference. It is well acknowledged that there are structural issues that need to addressed, and probably many others such as supervision, further training, skill mix, etc. Our overall number of nurses is not low by international comparison (nor are nursing earnings) so there are other isssues that need to be addressed. They should be addressed.As the nurse you know is "not really interested in more money", this is probably her priority also.

Get offf your very high (emotive) horse and recognise that lots of people recognise the nurse contribution but disagree with the pay demand (and the disingenuous way it is being presented as retention).


I don't (personally!)have any strong views on nurses pay v paramedics, but it is clear that the demands based on simple salary scales are simplistic. Other posters have pointed out the allowances, training supports and promotional opportunities that are available to nurses but not to these grades. I think a lot of the pro-payrise comments on here have shown little respect for the professionalism of these grades. Perhaps, if you happened "to know" one you would feel different about it. I would prefer a decision based on dispassionate, factual analysis of all the factors.



There doesn't seem to be any shortage of nursing candidates. But I wonder how many may be put off by all the emotive stories and claims (many erroneous) being put out there by the nursings reps.


Final observation. Perhaps your observation that those who question the IMNO demands "have feelings of sense of worthlessness and jealousy of people who achieve and produce" might actually more accurately reflect where you yourself are at?

Someone needs to reevaluate their posts. Calling me emotive, yet approximately 40% of your posts relate to this topic. Also, who's on a high horse? I'm glad you've time to construct such detailed and aggressive personalized comments on a forum.

Comments which in essence have no real viewpoint or position. Simply there for attention or to aggravate.

Take a look at yourself before criticizing others and posting intolerant or passively aggressive posts.

Do any of your points actually relate to any of the issues on hand, also if people can't use first hand experiences they have with nurses then what can they use? Seems pretty straightforward, I back the nurses due to personal experiences.

I'm ok with agreeing to disagree Thanks for your input.

Ginger83

mooreman09 wrote: »

I don't agree with this. People need to be treated with respect and hopefully its resolved with little impact on vulnerable people.

Quickest way to resolve it.

Martina1991

mooreman09 wrote:

Martina - that's not a benefit. They work 90 hours in a week and get a week off. Fair play to that nurse for taking advantage of that in her phase of life. I bet that nurse had no family. Think of that.

Its not a benefit, but gain I understand someone thinking that when they don't know nurses personally and the toll it takes on them over time.

She chooses to work nights because it gives her more time off for holidays. She's young and childless, so shes making good money and has the time off to enjoy it. So it is a benefit.

I do know many nurses personally. I work on call nights and weekends and i know for a fact i will never hear anyone talking about the toll my profession has on our health.

1641

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I know how taxation works.

As for your claims about public sector pensions, more misinformation.
The very same nurses, teachers and other public sector workers affected by new entrants pay are also hit by a new, much more inferior pension based on career average earnings.

Public Sector workers from 2012 onwards will pay way more into a pension than they will ever get back unless they lives into their 90s100s

Although I have heard the claim I haven't seen a reference to an actuarial audit that shows this . Have you got a link?


As for the new entrants, this could have been resolved previously if the goodwill, concern and generosity had been there from the established members.

alloywheel

Most nurses I know have a great lifestyle, loads of time off, holidays etc. They also have security and a great pension, and a tax free lump sum upon retirement of about €90,000 in the cases I know of. We are already at, or near, the top of the scale for health service spending in Europe. There should be no pay increase for anyone until the whole system is rationalised and reformed.

facehugger99

TheRiverman wrote: »

Anyone listen to the nurse on Liveline who has worked in Beaumont Hospital for many years.She had to go to Brussels to have a hip replacement due to the waiting list here.Having listened to her,I would say that Leo Varadkar,Simon Harris,Pascal Donoghue and all middle and senior management in the HSE should hang their heads in shame.Also all previous Taoisigh and Goverments that were responsible for this mess should do the same.

This kind of ****e gets bandied around a lot, but one of the biggest obstacles to reform of the HSE are the unions - the nurses being one of the biggest.

Ask any nurse about some of their workshy colleagues - they all know a few -they're impossible to get rid of.

1641

mooreman09 wrote: »

Someone needs to reevaluate their posts. Calling me emotive, yet approximately 40% of your posts relate to this topic. Also, who's on a high horse? I'm glad you've time to construct such detailed and aggressive personalized comments on a forum.

Comments which in essence have no real viewpoint or position. Simply there for attention or to aggravate.

Take a look at yourself before criticizing others and posting intolerant or passively aggressive posts.

Do any of your points actually relate to any of the issues on hand, also if people can't use first hand experiences they have with nurses then what can they use? Seems pretty straightforward, I back the nurses due to personal experiences.

I'm ok with agreeing to disagree Thanks for your input.

Sorry for not being clearer. The payrise should not be acceded to. There is no justification for it. The INMO claim that it is all about recruitment and retention is false.

I have had plenty of experience with nurses - but probably not your friend! I just prefer to base my opinion on the wider facts and context of the case.(Is that emotive - or intolerant? Sorry).


Thanks for your feedback (in a passive aggressive way:))

alloywheel

Of course the payrise should not be acceded to. And to answer the OP question "Do you think nurses will get their payrise?", no I think they will not, 90% of the public if fed up with their whinging and the government simply cannot borrow more to give to them. We are 200 billion in debt as it is, with Brexit and a probable recession ( from Trump or China or wherever) coming down the line.

Doing it for the patients....



Ssssuuuure

And for my own pocket primarily Joe

Such a preachy tone.

I have zero sympathy for the nurses

Greedy shower

Markcheese

There'll be a few more strikes, some meaningless flexibility concessions will be offered to the government, who will offer an unsociable hours "allowance" to the nursing unions... Probably not pensionable...
Game over, move on.

Rossi IRL

The HSE must be very poorly run, apparently we have second highest paid nurses in Europe and we can't keep them.

HSE must be a mess

Start sorting out that mess before any pay is looked at

Can't just keep throwing money at problems

Patrick2010

mooreman09 wrote: »

If I'm not happy with my terms I upload a CV to the internet and stick it to my employer, Public servants cannot do this.

Why not?, is there a bar on public servants on joining the private sector?.

eagle eye

Why would a nurse want to work in this country when you can go ab

Patrick2010

eagle eye wrote: »

Why would a nurse want to work in this country when you can go ab

Because they earn more money here than in most other countries?. Unless they go to Dubai I assume.

alloywheel

When the taxpayer has paid for many years of education they should have to stay working here for say 7 years. Either that or charge them for their training / education and give them a student loan to pay back. The Irish taxpayer has had enough of seeing them swanning off abroad and having a great time after their training, after all the money that was spent on them here.

BarryD2

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The gross pay of a lot of public sector workers sounds decent on paper.

When the pension contribution, pension levy, tax, PRSI and USC are taken out, it’s a fairly ****e sum to try and live on in an urban center, especially Dublin.

Then you buy anything and there’s even more tax on that

What makes you think that this is any different for anyone else? We all pay income tax, PRSI, USC, levies - many of us have to fund our own pensions. We all pay stamp duties, excise and VAT.

eagle eye wrote: »

Why would a nurse want to work in this country when you can go ab

Presumably because you grow up here, are educated here, have family here, friends and social life here, have a sense of wanting to contribute to the society of your birth???

Ciaran_B

alloywheel wrote: »

When the taxpayer has paid for many years of education they should have to stay working here for say 7 years. Either that or charge them for their training / education and give them a student loan to pay back. The Irish taxpayer has had enough of seeing them swanning off abroad and having a great time after their training, after all the money that was spent on them here.

The taxpayer has funded everyones education - not just nurses. Should no-one be allowed emigrate? Or is it just nurses you want to force to stay?

Inspector Coptoor

BarryD2 wrote: »

What makes you think that this is any different for anyone else? We all pay income tax, PRSI, USC, levies - many of us have to fund our own pensions. We all pay stamp duties, excise and VAT.
?

I clearly said I felt all workers are being gouged.

Public sector workers are paying for their pensions twice so they DO pay for their pensions.

Most private sector workers aren’t in unions and seem happy to accept the status quo.

These trade unionists are looking for better terms and conditions and pay and fair play to them

alloywheel

The nurses are the one who seem to abuse the system the most, there was a few of them on the radio recently saying how all their friends emigrated because they would have a better time in the sun etc.

iamwhoiam

alloywheel wrote: »

When the taxpayer has paid for many years of education they should have to stay working here for say 7 years. Either that or charge them for their training / education and give them a student loan to pay back. The Irish taxpayer has had enough of seeing them swanning off abroad and having a great time after their training, after all the money that was spent on them here.

And the other engineers and physios and teachers and IT developers etc all have to stay here for 7 years ? Or is it just aimed at nurses ? They are not the only ones who's education was funded ?

alloywheel

If students are heavily subsidised and get a "free" education at the expense of the taxpayer, yes they should have to work some years in that country, or else pay something back towards the cost of the education, like happens in some other countries.

alloywheel

As regards pensions, I know someone in the HSE on a pension of €80,000. A pension of €88,000 would cost €5.6 million if bought in the marketplace.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/pensions-could-make-millionaires-of-civil-servants-1.2814021

99% if not 99.9% of private sector people could never afford to buy pensions like that.

Twenty Grand

alloywheel wrote: »

If students are heavily subsidised and get a "free" education at the expense of the taxpayer, yes they should have to work some years in that country, or else pay something back towards the cost of the education, like happens in some other countries.

Why stop there?

Every child from primary up gets state funded education.
Why not just have a ban on everyone leaving the country and working elsewhere?

Numpty.

iamwhoiam

alloywheel wrote: »

If students are heavily subsidised and get a "free" education at the expense of the taxpayer, yes they should have to work some years in that country, or else pay something back towards the cost of the education, like happens in some other countries.

I tend to agree with you actually but it has to be applied across the board then.

keyboard_cat

BarryD2 wrote: »

Presumably because you grow up here, are educated here, have family here, friends and social life here, have a sense of wanting to contribute to the society of your birth???

I think most would like to stay for those reasons but at the end of the day they trained for 4 years doing placements in local hospitals where they are treated like scum by most other hospital staff (ask any nursing student).
At the end of the 4 years they find out there is not much in the way of training or specializing in Ireland and you end up doing nurse/hca work. At this point recruiters come from all over the world because we have very well trained nurses and offer them better wages better working conditions further training opportunities and chances to specialize.
For someone who has no aspirations going up the annual general nursing pay scale might be fine but for most graduates they want more opportunities which are not available here

alloywheel

Across the board for third level, or else charge reasonable third level fees and give student loans where applicable. Too many whingers get educated here at the taxpayers expense and then leg it to Sidney to live the lifestyle after graduating. No such thing as a "free" education. Our emigrating nurses have the best of both worlds.

iamwhoiam

alloywheel wrote: »

Across the board for third level, or else charge reasonable third level fees and give student loans where applicable. Too many whingers get educated here at the taxpayers expense and then leg it to Sidney to live the lifestyle after graduating. No such thing as a "free" education. Our emigrating nurses have the best of both worlds.

In that case so have our emigratiing IT specialist and engineers to

Stugots

alloywheel wrote: »

As regards pensions, I know someone in the HSE on a pension of €80,000. A pension of €88,000 would cost €5.6 million if bought in the marketplace.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/pensions-could-make-millionaires-of-civil-servants-1.2814021

99% if not 99.9% of private sector people could never afford to buy pensions like that.

That argument is always glossed over by the public service unions. There are almost no defined benefit pensions left in private industry any more.

Imagine you're a nurse starting at age 21 on a salary of 31k and you want to save enough to have a pension of 20k in 40 years. It will cost you nearly €400 per month AFTER tax.

And what value do you place on having a permanent job?

Inspector Coptoor

alloywheel wrote: »

As regards pensions, I know someone in the HSE on a pension of €80,000. A pension of €88,000 would cost €5.6 million if bought in the marketplace.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/pensions-could-make-millionaires-of-civil-servants-1.2814021

99% if not 99.9% of private sector people could never afford to buy pensions like that.

A sample size of n=1 proves nothing.
A person on a pension of €88k would have had a salary of €176k

The thing most people don’t understand is that the “value” of these pensions is contingent on that recipient staying alive.
As soon as that person dies, be it a month, a year, 30 years into retirement, that pension fund dies too.

An €88k pension would include a lump sum of €264k.

If that peroson died a month after retiring, it would cost the taxpayer €271k total

After a year it would be €352k

If the person lived for 30 years after retirement it would cost the state €2.9M

To give you another example.
A teacher I know worked for 40 years.

Final salary was €75k
Got a lump sum of €112.5k
Pension was gonna be €37.5k per annum.

He died 6 months after retiring.

His pension therefore cost the state €131.25k

1641

keyboard_cat wrote: »

For someone who has no aspirations going up the annual general nursing pay scale might be fine but for most graduates they want more opportunities which are not available here

If that is the case is the 12% pay rise just for those with no aspirations?

Or, instead of the 12%, should the focus be on negotiating about the training, supervision, skill mix, specialisation, etc that might be more attractive for the more aspirant graduates? No doubt, this would take some money too. Would it be better spent?

1641

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

1 The thing most people don’t understand is that the “value” of these pensions is contingent on that recipient staying alive.
2 As soon as that person dies, be it a month, a year, 30 years into retirement, that pension fund dies too.
3 A teacher I know worked for 40 years.

Final salary was €75k
Got a lump sum of €112.5k
Pension was gonna be €37.5k per annum.
He died 6 months after retiring.
His pension therefore cost the state €131.25k

1 I don't think there is any evidence of retired public servants dying any quicker than anyone else. What would it cost to purchase an annuity of this value in the open market? (Bear in mind that pre -2004 public servants can retire without actuarial reduction at 60. What is the average live expectancy of a 60 year old?)

2. No, there is a survivor's/spouse pension if the primary recipient dies.
3. Are you proposing mass euthanasia as a way of managing public sector costs? A bit drastic!

alloywheel

Well, as the link above from the Irish Times says, "The pension paid to the average civil servant who retires at 60 with 40 years of service would cost a whopping €1.5 million if bought in the marketplace. On this basis the average civil servant could be classified as a millionaire."

Nurses pensions are something other people can only dream of

facehugger99

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

A sample size of n=1 proves nothing.

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

To give you another example.
A teacher I know ..........

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

keyboard_cat

alloywheel wrote: »

Well, as the link above from the Irish Times says, "The pension paid to the average civil servant who retires at 60 with 40 years of service would cost a whopping €1.5 million if bought in the marketplace. On this basis the average civil servant could be classified as a millionaire."

Nurses pensions are something other people can only dream of

Is there any mention of nurses in that article?

alloywheel

Is nurses pay a million miles removed from "the average civil servant".

Such an arrogant cheek to be striking today, when some people had appointments since last year etc.

keyboard_cat

alloywheel wrote: »

Is nurses pay a million miles removed from "the average civil servant".

Such an arrogant cheek to be striking today, when some people had appointments since last year etc.

The real issue is that people had appointments that they have had to wait for since last year. Nurses striking today has nothing to do with that.

hawkelady

Graces7 wrote: »

There is already great impact on very vulnerable patients. Who are suffering blamelessly.

The government hasn’t been listening to the inmo for the last year. They didn’t decide just to walk out of the wards and onto the streets ... this is their way to be heard. When the strike goes for three consecutive days... I’m fairly sure they will be heard by the boys and girls of Leinster house !

Stop trying to be so emotive... you’d think you expect the nurses to work for free the way you spout on !

Inspector Coptoor

facehugger99 wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Irony lost on you ya clown.

If you roll your eyes anymore you might go blind ....

coolshannagh28

Its an anomaly that while nurses are seen as relatively highly paid at an average of over 50 k p/a this is the sort of money required to have any standard of living in Ireland as hidden inflation and housing costs bite, spare a thought for the hundreds of thousands of private sector workers trying to make ends meet on €400 /week gross.

Inspector Coptoor

1641 wrote: »

1 I don't think there is any evidence of retired public servants dying any quicker than anyone else. What would it cost to purchase an annuity of this value in the open market? (Bear in mind that pre -2004 public servants can retire without actuarial reduction at 60. What is the average live expectancy of a 60 year old?)

2. No, there is a survivor's/spouse pension if the primary recipient dies.
3. Are you proposing mass euthanasia as a way of managing public sector costs? A bit drastic!

1. I don’t know the average figure.
Even if I did averages are meaningless.
A median figure would be more representative.

2. As far as I know, the spouse/children pension only applies if you die in service.
Open to correction on that.

3. Not what I was suggesting at all.
It’s disingenuous to suggest that all public sector workers have these magic pension pots accumulating.
These pensions are paid out of current taxation, not in a pension pot like a PRSA.

Also - the contributory pension is now included in a public sector workers pension

tayto lover

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Its an anomaly that while nurses are seen as relatively highly paid at an average of over 50 k p/a this is the sort of money required to have any standard of living in Ireland as hidden inflation and housing costs bite, spare a thought for the hundreds of thousands of private sector workers trying to make ends meet on €400 /week gross.

Yes. They should join a Union and demand better.

facehugger99

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Irony lost on you ya clown.

If you roll your eyes anymore you might go blind ....

Well, my bullsh;t detector seems to be working fine.

Why do you resort to personal insults when you lose an argument?

ItAintMeBabe

keyboard_cat wrote: »

The real issue is that people had appointments that they have had to wait for since last year. Nurses striking today has nothing to do with that.

This. 100 times over.

I am a nurse. I have sat and held patients hand while they sob over vital appointments being cancelled and the reason why? Severe staff shortages.

People may not agree that we are looking for our pay restoration, but anybody begrudging the strike because people's appointments have been cancelled today is completely uninformed on the overall matter.

facehugger99

Even the Union mouthpiece RTE are reporting that cancer services are being canceled because of the unjustified strike action.

Is it too late to hope that common decency will outweigh personal greed?