Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

ELM327

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't think any of them signed up for a pay cut which happened.

Private sector lost their jobs, public sector kept theirs at a slight pay reduction even when the "company" they work for was bankrupt several times over.


Completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, but well done.

Goldengirl

tretorn wrote: »

I have a relative in a nursing home and I have never found a nurse at any stage in his room and he is in the home for two years now. I mean they come in and get him up in the morning and put him in a chair and they dispense medicine. They dont chat or engage in any conversation with him and the care assistants do all the sheet changing, and showers and clothes organising etc. There is never a nursr to be found when I call in and I have made a few complaints about this and my relative says they are short staffed.

My relly needed physiotherapy and the PT attached to the home showed me what exercises needed to be done. He said to make sure the nurses signed that they had actually done the exercises because if you dont have that relly will be left in the chair. If relly says I dont want to do the exercises nurse will say, thats ok, we wont force you, there is no encouragement at all.

Relly had to get a wheelchair and it was complicated to work it. The wheelchair specialist had to go around the corridors and round up the staff to show them how to do it, most didnt even listen and then they practiced with elderly relly sitting in the chair. A new nurse arrived and I tried to show him how to work the chair and he stood watching the TV while i talked him through it.

I went in one day and relly was lying on the floor, I helped to pick him up and asked nurse manager what could we do to prevent this happening again, he said get relly into the bed and he left. I dont know how long relly was lying on the floor so the next thing was to get the wheelchair with a belt but because nursing staff didnt bother learning out to set the chair properly it wasnt comfortable for the elderly person. The wheelchair was also quite dirty because of food dropping onit and no one bothered to clean it either.

Elderly relative became very shaky and food was dropped into him and nurse or whatever would just drop it and leave and then come back and pick up what was left. If you asked about the daily food intake you would be shown the varied diet on the PC. It was quite clear the man couldnt manage to feed himself and he was the responsibility of the nurse and none of them cared.

So no, they arent all angels and they have no right to demand to be put on the same pay scale as PHysios and Speech and language therapists. The CAO points rise relative to expected income and Physios and SLTs traditionally earned more than nurses so points for these courses are higher. You can substitute one nurse for another but a PT is a highly qualified specialist in the anatomy of the body and a nurse is not specialised to undertake whats involved in physio for a stroke patient for example. The nurses are on a hiding to nothing demanding to be put on a par with physios, if the Government give into this then every grade paid higher than nurses at present will strike demanding an increase.

I am sorry to hear about your relative as have had experience of nursing home care with one of my own.
The fact is nursing homes do not employ RGNs to carry out care, but HCAs and RGNs are busy doing meds and caring for acutely ill residents. Most people know this, but nevertheless it should have been explained to you.
Physios and SLTs are highly trained in their field , but would not have a clue about many areas that nurses are expert in, and vice versa. That is why people train in differing areas! Most healthcare workers especially doctors, value nurses highly and would see the reasons for the claim for pay parity.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Glad you finally admitted it.
Why quote any article that admits it is not accurate?
Grasping at straws...

It is the best estimate available. Next to impossible to get it entirely accurate given all the variables, I suspect. Just look at the list of allowances that are there in addition to the basic salary (I know nobody gets them all, so need to point this out).

If you have a better source of data please point it out.
Meanwhile, as said:


You both constantly dismiss any indepenent analysis. The OECD admit that international comparison is difficult because of the multitudes of allowances, etc., and how they are applied in different jurisdictions. So ,no, it is probably not 100% accurate. Nevertheless, it is the best there is, unless you can link to any independent data -


“While other countries provide data on a different basis, the 2017 figure of US$ PPP 63,464 remains an accurate estimate of what an average nurse earns in Ireland. While international comparisons are difficult, due to differences in how the figures are compiled, the OECD is the best source of data and the actual salary figures reported by the OECD do not suggest that nurses are low paid.”

tretorn

If the nursing homes dont employ RGNs to carry out care then why are they charging elderly people over a thousand euros a week for their stay.

How busy can you be doing meds if you have eight people on a floor and six of them are bed bound or wheelchair bound. Most of the med work as far as I could see was dispensing pills twice a day and I dont know what else the nurses did or where they went during the day. You would walk up and down the corridor and they were nowhere to be found. I wasnt actually told who was what grade but i guessed the nurses were the ones with the white uniform and the pin on their lapel. The care staff seemed to wear blue and they did most of the work and were probably on twelve euros an hour.

Twenty Grand

tretorn wrote: »

The nurses keep referring to salaries they can earn in Australia but the standard of living in Australia is higher than here.

A hair including wash and blow dry in Australia costs the equivalent of 120 Euros. Health care and health insurance is also very expensive too.

To get an idea of nurses salaries we would need to compare with nurses pay in the UK.

But the UK is an absolute basket case for healthcare. The NHS
Why don't you compare Ireland to a country where healthcare actually works?

Mad_maxx

STB. wrote: »

Yes, lets dive to the bottom, get nurses with sketchy english and even sketchier qualifications.

Meanwhile we can export all our well trained nurses to countries that actually pay adequate wages.

Oh wait. That has already happened.

They are healthcare professionals, not fúcking shop workers.

We already have a series of this going on around the country with doctors also where people employed were straight out of "Catch me if you can"

Just in case some of you need hand holding. Transport, Health, Housing, general insfrastructure. All run down to nothing by this shower of FG incompetents. But hey lets blame somebody else. The overpaid PR gurus employed by the government will tell us what to think.

We certainly wont be thinking that the new hospital mis-management and overspend by the HSE and Minister for Health could have paid these pay increases several time over, and certainly wont be calling for him to own up to his responsibility.



Its both. Not enough staff, poor conditions, super stress and poor pay.

They happily hire dodgy consultants who I wouldn't let examine my dog

Geuze

daithi7 wrote: »

75% of our vastly inflated health budget is consumed by salaries and pensions. So we overpay our Hse employees significantly already.

Yes.

There are 2,000 staff in HR, while the Head of HR in 2010 said he needed 800 staff.

There are 62 payroll offices in the HSE.

Bertie Ahern did a deal with the unions when the health boards merged into the HSE - no jobs lost.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Physios and SLTs are highly trained in their field , but would not have a clue about many areas that nurses are expert in, and vice versa. That is why people train in differing areas! Most healthcare workers especially doctors, value nurses highly and would see the reasons for the claim for pay parity.

In relation to the INMO pay claim for parity with Physios, OTs, etc., this is what the Independent Pay Commission concluded:


"Furthermore, given the strength of conviction expressed to the Commission by the profession about the pay and status comparison with what they regard as comparable health professions and the need for fundamental reforms which will impact signicantly on nursing and midwifery in the context of implementing Sláintecare, the Commission believes there would be value in considering a more general review embracing the full spectrum of issues relating to scope and role (including task transfer), structure, operational flexibilities, management responsibilities, professional development and other measures designed to improve the quality and effciency of service delivery in an integrated way, alongside any compensation issues to be argued by the staff side."


It seems to that they were somewhat sceptical of the claim but recommended it be reviewed in the context of reforms to improve quality and efficiency of service delivery.


The INMO accepted the Commission so why reject it conclusions ? Because it suggested the claim could only be considered in the context of reforms?

tretorn

Twenty Grand wrote: »

But the UK is an absolute basket case for healthcare. The NHS
Why don't you compare Ireland to a country where healthcare actually works?

Where does healthcare actually work, would Germany or France be a good example.

What do nurses start on in Germany, does anyone know.

iamwhoiam

tretorn wrote: »

If the nursing homes dont employ RGNs to carry out care then why are they charging elderly people over a thousand euros a week for their stay.

How busy can you be doing meds if you have eight people on a floor and six of them are bed bound or wheelchair bound. Most of the med work as far as I could see was dispensing pills twice a day and I dont know what else the nurses did or where they went during the day. You would walk up and down the corridor and they were nowhere to be found. I wasnt actually told who was what grade but i guessed the nurses were the ones with the white uniform and the pin on their lapel. The care staff seemed to wear blue and they did most of the work and were probably on twelve euros an hour.

I can only speak for a family members care home . The RGNs do dressings , drug rounds , catheter care , they help feed and dress and comfort
. They liase with physios and other services
. Where I know they have far more than 8 patients and cover each other for breaks on other floors . I have never yet seen an nurse sit doing nothing

daithi7

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I can only speak for a family members care home . The RGNs do dressings , drug rounds , catheter care , they help feed and dress and comfort
. They liase with physios and other services
. Where I know they have far more than 8 patients and cover each other for breaks on other floors . I have never yet seen an nurse sit doing nothing

I have and thankfully I haven't even been in hospitals much until recently. There are regularly groups of 3 or more nurses hanging around yapping like they are in a cafe or at a social occasion or something. I'm not saying many don't work hard but there is definitely a chat culture among their ranks.

Goldengirl

alloywheel wrote: »

Close enough. The Irish Times said is was close to €58,000 per year, on average, after examining all the figures. The Sun newspaper says different, maybe it is appealing to some nurses who buy the paper, I certainly do not, but here is the quote and link: "the HSE has provided contrasting figures showing the average pay — including allowances and other extras for unsociable hours — comes to €57,000. "
https://www.thesun.ie/news/3715917/irish-nurses-salaries-comparison-teachers-gardai-strike/

Either way, it is among the highest nurses pay in the world, and much higher than the average industrial wage here.

You obviously only looked at the highlighted blue quote and didn't read the article, lol!
Thank you ,alloy, that article illustrates everything we nurses have been saying beautifully ))

Goldengirl

FTA69 wrote: »

Hang on a second, you said any cold or hangover and nurses are calling in sick; where’s your proof for that? Because it sounds to me you’re looking to thrown any and all sh*t at nurses that you can.

Workers in understaffed, highly-stressful jobs working in proximity to sick people and doing shifts are more likely to become ill in work. It isn’t some conspiracy of laziness like.

Also that article he quotes there is talking about work related injury and illness causing ill health not people "taking sickies"...what a .plonker

Twenty Grand

Goldengirl wrote: »

You obviously only looked at the highlighted blue quote and didn't read the article, lol!
Thank you ,alloy, that article illustrates everything we nurses have been saying beautifully ))

Says a lot for the level of argument on this thread.

Goldengirl

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Says a lot for the level of argument on this thread.

Yes , circular arguments

alloywheel

tretorn wrote: »

The nurses keep referring to salaries they can earn in Australia but the standard of living in Australia is higher than here.

A hair including wash and blow dry in Australia costs the equivalent of 120 Euros. Health care and health insurance is also very expensive too.

To get an idea of nurses salaries we would need to compare with nurses pay in the UK.

Correct. And we pay our nurses here far more (it costs the taxpayer here more) than nurses earn (get paid by the UK taxpayer) in the NHS, which is a more efficient system, less waiting lists, less people on trolleys etc.

Comparing nurses salaries to the richest countries where they have huge natural resources (oil, mining etc) gets nobody anywhere. This country is 200 billion in the red, thanks to very large public sector pay and pensions as it is.

Twenty Grand

alloywheel wrote: »

Correct. And we pay our nurses here far more (it costs the taxpayer here more) than nurses earn (get paid by the UK taxpayer) in the NHS, which is a more efficient system, less waiting lists, less people on trolleys etc.

Comparing nurses salaries to the richest countries where they have huge natural resources (oil, mining etc) gets nobody anywhere. This country is 200 billion in the red, thanks to very large public sector pay and pensions as it is.

Lol to that entire post.
NHS has a more efficient system, there's a laugh.

alloywheel

Hope Leo will bring in some agency nurses to help the poor cancer patients our own nurses neglected and let down so badly yesterday.
Agency nurses in the UK cost the government there an average of just over £18 per hour, which is a lot less than our nurses here earn on average (more like €35 to €36 per hour according to the statistics).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/13/nurseshortages-cost-nhs-24-billion-last-year/

alloywheel

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Lol to that entire post.
NHS has a more efficient system, there's a laugh.

Look at waiting times and patients on trolleys etc in N. Ireland versus the Republic - you will see they get a much better service up there, even though it costs them less.

Goldengirl

Greengrant wrote: »

Do you have statistics to support the assertion that child poverty is increasing?

Social Justice Iteland, CSO , Barnardos, DoSP . You can look it up yourself , very well documented. Doubled since the recession.

STB.

alloywheel wrote: »

If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.

alloywheel wrote: »

Google is your friend.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/more-staff-absences-in-health-than-any-other-sector-1.3466166?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fmore-staff-absences-in-health-than-any-other-sector-1.3466166

Yes, well google is not your friend. The article discusses absenteeism across the health sector over a 14 year period.

Nowhere does it mention that "100,000 days a month" are lost to absenteeism for the sector or nurses.

Its clear from your previous posts that Mensa wont be asking you to join anytime soon. So I'll ask you the question again. SOURCE.

Twenty Grand

alloywheel wrote: »

Hope Leo will bring in some agency nurses to help the poor cancer patients our own nurses neglected and let down so badly yesterday.
Agency nurses in the UK cost the government there an average of just over £18 per hour, which is a lot less than our nurses here earn on average (more like €35 to €36 per hour according to the statistics).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/13/nurseshortages-cost-nhs-24-billion-last-year/

Agency nurses are usually newly qualified and paid more than what you'd pay a full time nurse of equal qualification. Which is the whole point kf the article you linked, if you bothered to read past the headline. Of course the NHS is an absolute basket case and criminally understaffed, mainly because the pay is shocking.

But you keep holding up as a shining example which Ireland should follow for some bizarre reason.

Goldengirl

alloywheel wrote: »

Correct. And we pay our nurses here far more (it costs the taxpayer here more) than nurses earn (get paid by the UK taxpayer) in the NHS, which is a more efficient system, less waiting lists, less people on trolleys etc.

Comparing nurses salaries to the richest countries where they have huge natural resources (oil, mining etc) gets nobody anywhere. This country is 200 billion in the red, thanks to very large public sector pay and pensions as it is.

Having lived in UK and worked in NHS , you are talking BS !

Goldengirl

alloywheel wrote: »

Hope Leo will bring in some agency nurses to help the poor cancer patients our own nurses neglected and let down so badly yesterday.
Agency nurses in the UK cost the government there an average of just over £18 per hour, which is a lot less than our nurses here earn on average (more like €35 to €36 per hour according to the statistics).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/13/nurseshortages-cost-nhs-24-billion-last-year/

Top of the scale 20 years experience € 22 per hour..but don't let the FACTS get in your way!

alloywheel

STB. wrote: »

Its clear from your previous posts that Mensa wont be asking you to join anytime soon.

Less of the personal attacks or you will be reported.

Do not forget the total number of people employed by the HSE has increased from 99,327 to 110,975 or 11.54% since the end of 2014, and the number of administration and managerial staff has risen 17.21% from 15,113 in December 2014 to 17,705 in December 2017.

Are you surprised that absenteeism is so high in the HSE, even in admin roles?

STB.

Originally Posted by alloywheel
Correct. And we pay our nurses here far more (it costs the taxpayer here more) than nurses earn (get paid by the UK taxpayer) in the NHS, which is a more efficient system, less waiting lists, less people on trolleys etc.

Comparing nurses salaries to the richest countries where they have huge natural resources (oil, mining etc) gets nobody anywhere. This country is 200 billion in the red, thanks to very large public sector pay and pensions as it is.

The reason this country is in the red is through irresponsible lending, irresponsible developers gambling on a continued celtic tiger, and finally the bailing out of unsecured bondholders who wanted their money back having gambled on private businesses.

Its nothing to do with nurses pay nor pensions.


Go back to school.

alloywheel

Goldengirl wrote: »

Top of the scale 20 years experience € 22 per hour..but don't let the FACTS get in your way!

Including allowances the HSE themselves have admitted average pay for nurses is 57,000 per year (link provided earlier) ...but do not let facts get in your way.

jeonahr

alloywheel wrote: »

Including allowances the HSE themselves have admitted average pay for nurses is 57,000 per year (link provided earlier) ...but do not let facts get in your way.

Source please, I had read somewhere that the average nurse’s pay was just under the national average. My father is a senior nurse with almost 20 years experience in this country alone and only earns €30,000-€35,000 per annum and this is usually with a minimum of one day overtime every week.

Goldengirl

1641 wrote: »

In relation to the INMO pay claim for parity with Physios, OTs, etc., this is what the Independent Pay Commission concluded:


"Furthermore, given the strength of conviction expressed to the Commission by the profession about the pay and status comparison with what they regard as comparable health professions and the need for fundamental reforms which will impact signicantly on nursing and midwifery in the context of implementing Sláintecare, the Commission believes there would be value in considering a more general review embracing the full spectrum of issues relating to scope and role (including task transfer), structure, operational flexibilities, management responsibilities, professional development and other measures designed to improve the quality and effciency of service delivery in an integrated way, alongside any compensation issues to be argued by the staff side."


It seems to that they were somewhat sceptical of the claim but recommended it be reviewed in the context of reforms to improve quality and efficiency of service delivery.


The INMO accepted the Commission so why reject it conclusions ? Because it suggested the claim could only be considered in the context of reforms?

Because when they accepted that there would be a Commission it was meant to look at the issue of nurses' pay . However Paschal restricted the Commission from a finding in favour of a pay award and directed them to other measures, thereby making the whole thing an exercise in how to frustrate and aggravate both the PayCommission( who could not find in favour of Pay! ) and Nurses' , who hitherto had accepted everything taken from them , and had specifically requested this be looked into.
You know this...you are posing the same questions over and over , hoping you will get support from those who are not particularly well informed.It is almost as if you are a government spin doctor ?

STB.

alloywheel wrote: »

Less of the personal attacks or you will be reported.

Do not forget the total number of people employed by the HSE has increased from 99,327 to 110,975 or 11.54% since the end of 2014, and the number of administration and managerial staff has risen 17.21% from 15,113 in December 2014 to 17,705 in December 2017.

Are you surprised that absenteeism is so high in the HSE, even in admin roles?

So are you going to produce a source for your 100,000 nurses that you claim are absent every month or what ?

That will be very difficult given there are only 35,000 employed in the state. So you will have to find somewhere else to get 65,000 extra ghost nurses that are out on the sick note. Surely the patients have noticed. Must be like a ghost town in the hospitals.

Your an embarrassment at this stage. You'd be better off re-reging again, so people take you seriously.

Its not all negative though, I particularly liked your post about how the Johnny Ronan's of this world who had to re-invent themselves. Do you find it difficult to type with the arm restraints on ? Report away there Einstein.

Goldengirl

alloywheel wrote: »

Including allowances the HSE themselves have admitted average pay for nurses is 57,000 per year (link provided earlier) ...but do not let facts get in your way.

This is the link that has been shown as biased and inaccurate several times through the thread. Go back to your cave!

STB.

jeonahr wrote: »

Source please, I had read somewhere that the average nurse’s pay was just under the national average. My father is a senior nurse with almost 20 years experience in this country alone and only earns €30,000-€35,000 per annum and this is usually with a minimum of one day overtime every week.

Wasting your time. He has no sources. The thread is littered with misinformation from the same poster.

Goldengirl

STB. wrote: »

Wasting your time. He has no sources. The thread is littered with misinformation from the same poster.

Yes I have done with him and one or two others. They are, I agree, rereg for this thread and trying to derail any constructive meaningful debate , as they do under other names on any other thread about social issues. No facts or real discussion, just ignorance and bile , usually directed at anyone with a bit of positivity in their outlook.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Because when they accepted that there would be a Commission it was meant to look at the issue of nurses' pay . However Paschal restricted the Commission from a finding in favour of a pay award and directed them to other measures, thereby making the whole thing an exercise in how to frustrate and aggravate both the PayCommission( who could not find in favour of Pay! ) and Nurses' , who hitherto had accepted everything taken from them , and had specifically requested this be looked into.
You know this...you are posing the same questions over and over , hoping you will get support from those who are not particularly well informed.It is almost as if you are a government spin doctor ?

That is a complete lie - either you have just made it up or it has been fed to you by Sile Ni Goebbels. Provide any evidence that the independent commission was so directed by anyone. Every evening you come on with similiar rubbish as this.


And as for posing similar question over and over, this is first time I have posed this question - or perhaps you could point to the post where I posed it before. And then perhaps you could actually answer the question - without trying to divert with outlandish rubbish, as usual.

alloywheel

jeonahr wrote: »

Source please,

If you read the thread you will see it, often repeated. The Irish Times reported it too.

If you prefer the Irish Sun, here is their link, where they examined nurses salaries:https://www.thesun.ie/news/3715917/irish-nurses-salaries-comparison-teachers-gardai-strike/

They say "the HSE has provided contrasting figures showing the average pay — including allowances and other extras for unsociable hours — comes to €57,000. This is for all grades, including nursing managers and specialist nurses.

And, according to the HSE, the average pay of a staff nurse only comes to €53,000 — which is still higher than the average industrial salary of around €38,000."

Martina1991

jeonahr wrote:

Source please, I had read somewhere that the average nurse’s pay was just under the national average. My father is a senior nurse with almost 20 years experience in this country alone and only earns €30,000-€35,000 per annum and this is usually with a minimum of one day overtime every week.

30-35k is quite a broad bracket.
How would he be on so little with that much experience? The salary scale goes up to 45k+.

facehugger99

STB. wrote: »

[/I]


The reason this country is in the red is through irresponsible lending, irresponsible developers gambling on a continued celtic tiger, and finally the bailing out of unsecured bondholders who wanted their money back having gambled on private businesses.

Its nothing to do with nurses pay nor pensions.


Go back to school.

You’re wrong, PS pay and pensions are the main contributors to our debt, but the reasons hardly matters.

The fact the country is 200 billion in debt is an undeniable fact.

Another gouging of taxpayers by public sevenths is unaffordable.

If you can’t get your head around that, I’ll get my 8 year old to explain it to you.

2011abc

It’s so easy to see the Fine Gael-ers now they’re getting sloppy ! EG one recent poster with only 2 or 3 random posts on various fora and nearly 200 on this thread ! Do FG really reckon After Hours is the beating heart of the country and must be swayed

alloywheel

STB. wrote: »

That will be very difficult given there are only 65,000 employed in the state.

The HSE is the largest employer in the State, with more than 67,000 direct employees, and a further 35,000 employed by agencies funded by the HSE.




Link:
https://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/3.-HSE-Pay-and-Staffing.pdf


Interestingly, it says Ireland has " a high number of nurses per capita compared to other OECD countries in 2015. This resulted in Ireland having a significantly high ratio of nurses to doctors at 3.8 in 2015, well above the OECD average."

In the shambles that is the HSE, the Examiner says that the HSE: hires almost three times more office staff than nurses
https://www.irishexaminer.com/.../hse-hires-almost-three-times-more-office-staff-than-n...
It alsio says (and I quote) :While the total number of people employed by the HSE has increased from 99,327 to 110,975 or 11.54% since the end of 2014, the number of administration and managerial staff has risen 17.21% from 15,113 in December 2014 to 17,705 in December 2017.

110,975 and they still have massive waiting times, people on trolleys, people going abroad for treatment etc

And you say there are only 65,000 STB. lol

facehugger99

2011abc wrote: »

It’s so easy to see the Fine Gael-ers now they’re getting sloppy ! EG one recent poster with only 2 or 3 random posts on various fora and nearly 200 on this thread ! Do FG really reckon After Hours is the beating heart of the country and must be swayed

Seems like the nurses union does.

The NHS whilst not perfect has a better system than ireland. This has very little to do with nurses wages.

Mocadonna

Martina1991 wrote: »

30-35k is quite a broad bracket.
How would he be on so little with that much experience? The salary scale goes up to 45k+.

There is an awful lot of misinformation being spread. I saw somewhere else last week a nurse claiming they were on 25k a year, when pressed on it she admitted this was because she only works part time due to having children. Nothing wrong with working part time, but to make out that nurses earn this when the salary starts at 30k is very misleading.

Of course she had the usual "Leo should hang his head in shame, that's a shocking wage" crowd on the hook already so facts don't really matter. That's the way the world is gone these days I suppose.

1641

STB. wrote: »

[/I]
The reason this country is in the red is through irresponsible lending, irresponsible developers gambling on a continued celtic tiger, and finally the bailing out of unsecured bondholders who wanted their money back having gambled on private businesses.

Its nothing to do with nurses pay nor pensions.
Go back to school.

If you learned that in school, presumably it was playschool.


Ireland's debt currently €200 billion.
Approx €58 billion (net) of that relates to bank bailouts (Source Central Bank)
Approx €47 billion relates to existing debts prior to the crash.
Approx €95 billion is excess of Government spending over income (tax) since 2008 to keep the country running. As well as public sector pay and pension it, of course includes Social Welfare, educational and other supports, local gov,etc. But it does show how much we were living beyond our means, when the mad property related tax boom of the bubble. Hopefully we will not experience another bubble soon.

STB.

alloywheel wrote: »

The HSE is the largest employer in the State, with more than 67,000 direct employees, and a further 35,000 employed by agencies funded by the HSE.

Link:
https://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/3.-HSE-Pay-and-Staffing.pdf

Interestingly, it says Ireland has " a high number of nurses per capita compared to other OECD countries in 2015. This resulted in Ireland having a significantly high ratio of nurses to doctors at 3.8 in 2015, well above the OECD average."

Yes but this thread is about NURSES.

YOU made claims that there are 100,000 nurses on sick leave every month, despite the fact that there are are only circa 35,000 nurses employed directly by the HSE (the actually figure is 36,342).

Are you going to delete your post or at the least admit that this is a ridiculous statement.

And forget that DPER document. The HSE were double counting their staff. The reality is outlined in this letter to DPER. 2000 nurses less than 2007.

https://www.inmo.ie/tempDocs/Letters%20P%20Donohoe%20and%20R%20Watt%20Reply.pdf

alloywheel

2011abc wrote: »

It’s so easy to see the Fine Gael-ers now they’re getting sloppy !

Fine Gael are the party in charge of the HSE, and they are the party responsible for the New Childrens hospital being the most expensive per bed (by far) in the world. Shocking incompetence.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Yes I have done with him and one or two others. They are, I agree, rereg for this thread and trying to derail any constructive meaningful debate , as they do under other names on any other thread about social issues. No facts or real discussion, just ignorance and bile , usually directed at anyone with a bit of positivity in their outlook.

From you, this is funny!

Mocadonna

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

You didn't answer my question though, are nurses going to give up that allowance, and others, and start funding those qualifications themselves in lieu of higher base pay? The INMO claim they want pay parity with AHPs, that works both ways and I doubt that the HSE are going to give AHPs the same allowances or final year paid practical placements in college to ensure parity. Nurses "only get paid extra for one" better than getting paid nothing extra at all for a post grad after you have paid thousands to receive it.

That doesn't even touch on the multiple managerial grades over the clinical staff and specialisation grades which earn far more than top level AHPs. AHP base pay is higher because they have nowhere near the earning and career opportunities available to them over the course of their career that nursing staff do. I guess that doesn't matter though because every nurse isn't a DON.

Funnily enough, the same managerial grades (who are most certainly going to be on the old, higher payscale) want their 12% too, instead of advocating for the front line nurses and, most importantly, the new recruits to be paid appropriately. These are the new recruits that the INMO voted to give a lower salary to in the first place. Why do managerial grades need a 12% pay rise to supposedly improve conditions and retention when they aren't the ones on the wards?

The INMO claim *we can't retain newly qualified staff because money is too low* well, that's what happens when they are punished by pulling the ladder up from them to protect existing members... If this was about ending two tier pay for new recruits, I would support that 100%. Instead it is sticking the hand out for all grades, breaching PSSA agreements, while still burdening the new recruits with lower pay.

I asked a similar question a while back. An OT starts on 35000, a nurse on 30000. If the nurse works with the OT they get an allowance of 3700, so there isn't really a hell of a difference at the moment.

alloywheel

STB. wrote: »

YOU made claims that there are 100,000 nurses on sick leave every month, despite the fact that there are are only circa 35,000 nurses employed directly by the HSE (the actually figure is 36,342).

Are you going to delete your post or at the least admit that this is a ridiculous statement.

We were discussing the HSE and I said (and you should go back and look at the post) "If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot."

1641

jeonahr wrote: »

Source please, I had read somewhere that the average nurse’s pay was just under the national average. My father is a senior nurse with almost 20 years experience in this country alone and only earns €30,000-€35,000 per annum and this is usually with a minimum of one day overtime every week.[/QUOTE]


In response to questions from The Irish Times, the Department of Public Expenditure later released figures which show that average pay for nurses is €57-58,000 a year when allowances and premium payments are included. It also said 83 per cent of nurses and midwives earn over €40,000 in basic salary, excluding allowances.


As regards your father's alleged annual earnings, how is that even possible? Excluding allowances and premiums, the basic staff nurse scale goes far higher than this.

STB.

1641 wrote: »

If you learned that in school, presumably it was playschool.
Ireland's debt currently €200 billion.


Approx €58 billion (net) of that relates to bank bailouts (Source Central Bank)
Approx €47 billion relates to existing debts prior to the crash.


Approx €95 billion is excess of Government spending over income (tax) since 2008 to keep the country running.



As well as public sector pay and pension it, of course includes Social Welfare, educational and other supports, local gov,etc. But it does show how much we were living beyond our means, when the mad property related tax boom of the bubble. Hopefully we will not experience another bubble soon.

If you are going to selectively quote me, at least quote what I was responding to which was this genius.

Originally Posted by alloywheel This country is 200 billion in the red, thanks to very large public sector pay and pensions as it is