Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Kivaro

80,000 appointments cancelled to date since they started their strike. 27,000 appointments cancelled today alone. Well done nurses.
If the government caves in to their demands, it will cost us an extra €300 million every year ..... until they decide to strike again.

Twenty Grand

Kivaro wrote: »

80,000 appointments cancelled to date since they started their strike. 27,000 appointments cancelled today alone. Well done nurses.
If the government caves in to their demands, it will cost us an extra €300 million every year ..... until they decide to strike again.

Just shows how integral they are to the health service.

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Just shows how integral they are to the health service.

Well, obviously, but, that doesn't mean we can afford their requests for a 12% increase.

namloc1980

Didn't the INMO accept the terms of the Public Service Stability Agreement which runs until the end of 2020? They are now reneging on that agreement so they can't be negotiated with or trusted. If the government caves in, then it's open season for all the other PS.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, obviously, but, that doesn't mean we can afford their requests for a 12% increase.

How do you know what the country can and can't afford?

Donnielighto

I'd be OK with hse investment but they need to cut stuff first.

For those who are saying nurses are underpaid what is a fair wage, imo they are paid fairly.

Donnielighto

Twenty Grand wrote: »

How do you know what the country can and can't afford?

There's a budget and returns published. While we could pay the 12% we'd have to find it somewhere else or raise taxes. If it is to be found somewhere else then those savings should be implemented and evaluated before being considered as an offset for a pay rise. I have no sympathy for the unions tbh, they aren't unions in the traditional sense of looking at working conditions they are just lobby groups for wage rises at this point.

Outkast_IRE

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Sure, encourage people into healthcare education by locking them into a contract where they're penalised for working abroad.
I'm sure you'll have young people flocking to the door.

Or, you know, they could study literally anything else, for better pay, better conditions and less stress.

It's one of the most desirable professions in the world because of the high earning potential and the fact you are doing some good for people. There are many countries with this system in place for medical training .

There would be no shortage of people to take up the opportunity I would stake everything I own on that fact.

namloc1980

Twenty Grand wrote: »

How do you know what the country can and can't afford?

The nurses accepted the current pay agreement up to the end of 2020. With nearly 2 years to run on that, they are back looking for 12% now. It's a pay claim dressed up as a dispute about recruitment and conditions.

Kermit.de.frog

They should not be given a cent outside the existing economic stability agreements from the crisis.

This country was bankrupted 10 years a go and a large part of that crisis was the overpaying of civil servants and frontline staff across the public sector.

The result was the IMF had to come in here and make decisions for the government.

Give in to one set and the whole lot will be looking for their cake.

We can't afford it. We don't need another trauma like 2010 in this country.

Twenty Grand

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

It's one of the most desirable professions in the world because of the high earning potential and the fact you are doing some good for people. There are many countries with this system in place for medical training .

There would be no shortage of people to take up the opportunity I would stake everything I own on that fact.

Then why is there a lack of nurses in most of the western world?

The USA will need 1 million nurses over the next 5 years and they do not and will not exist by then.

The UK need 50,000 nurses in the next 4 years.

And here we are, Paddy Ireland, saying "sure they get a fair wage", "we can't afford to pay them", "sure they signed up for those conditions".

God luck hiring nurses over the next few years. The situation is going to get worse and worse.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They should not be given a cent outside the existing economic stability agreements from the crisis.

This country was bankrupted 10 years a go and a large part of that crisis was the overpaying of civil servants and frontline staff across the public sector.

The result was the IMF had to come in here and make decisions for the government.

Give in to one set and the whole lot will be looking for their cake.

We can't afford it. We don't need another trauma like 2010 in this country.

All of that is complete horsesh*t that's been peddled on this thread before and thoroughly disproven

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

How do you know what the country can and can't afford?

Are you for real? Are you telling me that Pascal called over to you and went through the budget before announcing it nd that you have information none of the rest of us have?

Healthcare budget has increased by over 40% since 2012. We are already high on the list both in terms of GDP and per capita compared to other countries.

And you do not see a problem with one group looking for 12% more? A group within which the average is 57K by the way.
I know, I know, you know loads of nurses who don't earn anywhere near that. That is fine. I agree those on the wards should be paid more. Tell them to strike against the excessive numbers in nursing management roles which has had the consequence of driving the average for the entire nursing group up so high and then I will support them.

daithi7

Is anyone reporting in the media how much nurses are already getting (and are due to get) under the existing public pay deal!? (you know the one they want to inflate by their greedy demands)

Also how much more are they paid versus nurse in the NHS and other similar countries in Europe e.g. Holland, Belgium, etc, etc

These metrics would be insightful if only they were actually publicised!!

Yer Da sells Avon

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They should not be given a cent outside the existing economic stability agreements from the crisis.

This country was bankrupted 10 years a go and a large part of that crisis was the overpaying of civil servants and frontline staff across the public sector.

The result was the IMF had to come in here and make decisions for the government.

Give in to one set and the whole lot will be looking for their cake.

We can't afford it. We don't need another trauma like 2010 in this country.

I can assure you, this country was not bankrupted as a result of nurses being paid too much. The state has got away with paying them far too little for far too long.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

Are you for real? Are you telling me that Pascal called over to you and went through the budget before announcing it nd that you have information none of the rest of us have?

Healthcare budget has increased by over 40% since 2012. We are already high on the list both in terms of GDP and per capita compared to other countries.

And you do not see a problem with one group looking for 12% more? A group within which the average is 57K by the way.
I know, I know, you know loads of nurses who don't earn anywhere near that. That is fine. I agree those on the wards should be paid more. Tell them to strike against the excessive numbers in nursing management roles which has had the consequence of driving the average for the entire nursing group up so high and then I will support them.

This country need nurses.

What's the best way to get nurses (that doesn't involve planeloads of fantasy Asians gagging to get into the country as one poster suggested, or taking graduates passports off them as another suggested)

Twenty Grand

daithi7 wrote: »

Is anyone reporting in the media how much nurses are already getting (and are due to get) under the existing public pay deal!? (you know the one they want to inflate by their greedy demands)

Also how much more are they paid versus nurse in the NHS and other similar countries in Europe e.g. Holland, Belgium, etc, etc

These metrics would be insightful if only they were actually publicised!!

Hmmmm, you know there might be a thread on Boards about it.

One with about 2800 posts precisely on that topic...

namloc1980

Twenty Grand wrote: »

This country need nurses.

What's the best way to get nurses (that doesn't involve planeloads of fantasy Asians gagging to get into the country as one poster suggested, or taking graduates passports off them as another suggested)

Certainly not by paying the existing nurses 12% outside of the existing public service pay agreements that they actually signed up to just over a year ago.

Twenty Grand

namloc1980 wrote: »

Certainly not by paying the existing nurses 12% outside of the existing public service pay agreements that they actually signed up to just over a year ago.

I'd say that's actually a pretty good start to encouraging more nurses to move here:rolleyes:

namloc1980

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I'd say that's actually a pretty good start to encouraging more nurses to move here:rolleyes:

Is it? This notion that all those nurses in Australia will suddenly come flooding home if the government caves in is laughable in the extreme. Answer this: the nurses signed up to the existing pay agreement that runs to the end of 2020 just over a year ago. Do agreements mean nothing to nurses??

Pauliedragon

I will say I'm getting sick of the media in this. The way they're banging on it's as if every Irish nurse abroad were drumbed out the industry. When I lived abroad I met dozens maybe hundreds of Irish nurses. Admittedly none of them were close friends but I knew them well enough to chat to regularly through my job but not one ever said to me they left Ireland because of wages. Conditions were brutal yes. They all left for similar reasons to me. Broaden horizons, meet new people, get away from the **** weather etc. What happened to the Irish one in Melbourne who's on "more than double what she would earn at home" She's on $65000 which is €40000. No quailified nurse is earning less then 20k so either the Indo is lying or she is so why didn't the radio presenter pull her up on that when she was on air? Also the cost of living over there is much higher than here. €40k Euro goes a lot further here then over there. If she wants a house anywhere near Melbourne she'll have to probably double her wage.

Twenty Grand

namloc1980 wrote: »

Is it? This notion that all those nurses in Australia will suddenly come flooding home if the government caves in is laughable in the extreme. Answer this: the nurses signed up to the existing pay agreement that runs to the end of 2020 just over a year ago. Do agreements mean nothing to nurses??

Does understaffed mean nothing to you?

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

This country need nurses.

What's the best way to get nurses (that doesn't involve planeloads of fantasy Asians gagging to get into the country as one poster suggested, or taking graduates passports off them as another suggested)

The Pay commission investigation found that pay was not the leading factor for disquiet amongst nurses.

I suggest that they table actions which they think would improve their working experience and that they strike for that.

Then, we should see more nurses being happy to work there because it is a more pleasant experience.

More pay is papering over cracks in a way which just postpones actually fixing the HSE.

daithi7

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Hmmmm, you know there might be a thread on Boards about it.

One with about 2800 posts precisely on that topic...

And who is reporting these facts in the media?

which is the actual question I posed.

Because none of the coverage I have seen has even referred to the pay rises already due to the nurses under the latest public pay deal, and/or how much more the Irish nurses are currently paid ahead of their equivalents in similar cost of living countries in the EU .

p.s. it's no bloody wonder our health budget is a massive inefficient leaky bucket, when our national media are so pathetic at actually analysing and discussing the relevant issues. The media seem to prefer to broadcast emotive nurses prattle on about patient safety (when its abundantly clear this is simply not the issue at all) and about emotive issues such as disrupted treatments, cancelled appointments and the like. Already over inflated pay, further pay rises due and premiums over other countries might be just too many facts for our pinko liberal media to actually highlight!?!

namloc1980

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Does understaffed mean nothing to you?

Can't answer the question, typical.

Twenty Grand

Twenty Grand wrote: »

This country need nurses.

What's the best way to get nurses (that doesn't involve planeloads of fantasy Asians gagging to get into the country as one poster suggested, or taking graduates passports off them as another suggested)

namloc1980 wrote: »

Certainly not by paying the existing nurses 12% outside of the existing public service pay agreements that they actually signed up to just over a year ago.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Can't answer the question, typical.

You're not too good at it either :rolleyes:

namloc1980

Twenty Grand wrote: »

You're not too good at it either :rolleyes:

You quote me answering questions as an example of me not answering questions . You're not very good at this are you? :pac:

Twenty Grand

namloc1980 wrote: »

You quote me answering questions as an example of me not answering questions . You're not very good at this are you? :pac:

How do we recruit more nurses?

By not giving them more money!

There may be no such thing as stupid questions, but there's definitely stupid answers;)

mikhail

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Let's do the following
1. Stop our medical schools taking on graduates from all over the world who return as soon as they are done . Unis are out of pocket but so what educate your own first then worry about foreign students .

The universities will happily take on more students if only they are paid for them.

The foreign students massively subsidise the universities. The local places are capped largely because the unions don't want their cosy little situation threatened.

pjohnson

namloc1980 wrote: »

You quote me answering questions as an example of me not answering questions . You're not very good at this are you? :pac:

Probably needs more pay to do better.

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

How do we recruit more nurses?

By not giving them more money!

There may be no such thing as stupid questions, but there's definitely stupid answers;)

It seems you missed this from earlier.

Tell me how wrote: »

The Pay commission investigation found that pay was not the leading factor for disquiet amongst nurses.

I suggest that they table actions which they think would improve their working experience and that they strike for that.

Then, we should see more nurses being happy to work there because it is a more pleasant experience.

More pay is papering over cracks in a way which just postpones actually fixing the HSE.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

It seems you missed this from earlier.

Ok great! So how do we improve conditions?

Hire more....oh wait...

How do we hire more nurses again?

pjohnson

If the "new" important issue is recruiting new staff I wonder how the INMO would feel if the government proposed a new higher payscale for NEW entrants while leaving the currebt staff unaffected. Surely everyone is a winner?

New graduates will get the higher starting pay to stay in Ireland therefore reducing the understaffing issue for the current nurses?

Of course this only works if recruitment is the ACTUAL problem. If its current nurses just wanting more its back to the drawing board.

namloc1980

Twenty Grand wrote: »

How do we recruit more nurses?

By not giving them more money!

There may be no such thing as stupid questions, but there's definitely stupid answers;)

If this truly was a dispute about recruitment then the INMO and the nurses should be saying improve pay for new recruits, not having the paw out looking for 12% themselves. This is nothing more than a pay claim dressed up as a recruitment and conditions dispute. Simple as.

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Ok great! So how do we improve conditions?

Hire more....oh wait...

How do we hire more nurses again?

We'll try once more.
I've put the relevant points in bold and numbered them as you don't seem to have read them yet.

Tell me how wrote: »

1 - The Pay commission investigation found that pay was not the leading factor for disquiet amongst nurses.

2 - I suggest that they table actions which they think would improve their working experience and that they strike for that.

3 - Then, we should see more nurses being happy to work there because it is a more pleasant experience.

More pay is papering over cracks in a way which just postpones actually fixing the HSE.

Also, if you can't figure out the difference in paying for more nurses as opposed to paying nurses more, I really don't know what to say to you.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

We'll try once more.
I've put the relevant points in bold and numbered them as you don't seem to have read them yet.



Also, if you can't figure out the difference in paying for more nurses as opposed to paying nurses more, I really don't know what to say to you.

Saw that
1 Pay commission says pay isn't a problem. Yet thousands are on strike for more pay.

2. Nurses want better conditions. Which involves the need for more nurses. Which they can't hire because few are applying for jobs.

I'm all for paying for more nurses. Ok let me rephrase the question: how to we encourage more students to study nursing and stay in the country when they graduate?

If you need more nurses to improve conditions, then how do you entice more people to get into nursing in the first place?

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Saw that
1 Pay commission says pay isn't a problem. Yet thousands are on strike for more pay.

2. Nurses want better conditions. Which involves the need for more nurses. Which they can't hire because few are applying for jobs.

I'm all for paying for more nurses. Ok let me rephrase the question: how to we encourage more students to study nursing and stay in the country when they graduate?

If you need more nurses to improve conditions, then how do you entice more people to get into nursing in the first place?

Thousands are on strike for more pay yes but that does not invalidate the findings of the commission.

I understand that we have many in nursing roles who do not provide hands on care, if nurses were willing to see a reduction in the numbers in such roles so that a greater percentage were on the ward then I suspect that that would improve conditions.

There are always going to be those who qualify and then travel for life experiences and so on. Even more so when they have a 3rd level qualification which means that they can walk in to a job while abroad. Maybe we have to look at some form of contract so that if they do not work x number of years in the Irish system, they have to refund part of the cost of their training (maybe give them a window to do so so that they can still take the sabbatical for life experiences.)

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

Thousands are on strike for more pay yes but that does not invalidate the findings of the commission.

Definitely casts it in a very bad light

I understand that we have many in nursing roles who do not provide hands on care, if nurses were willing to see a reduction in the numbers in such roles so that a greater percentage were on the ward then I suspect that that would improve conditions.
.)

What evidence is there that any of this is true?

Tell me how wrote: »

Maybe we have to look at some form of contract so that if they do not work x number of years in the Irish system, they have to refund part of the cost of their training (maybe give them a window to do so so that they can still take the sabbatical for life experiences.)

And how would that entice ANYONE to study nursing?

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

What evidence is there that any of this is true?

1 - If the 57K average is true (which I believe it is) and we are told that those on the wards are not earning such money, then it follows that it has to be going to the nursing managers. If the numbers are such that it skews the average so much, then I believe they are an excessively high percentage of the nursing group
2 - a consultant friend told me that there were much greater numbers of nursing managers in a hospital here than one he worked at in Canada. Single piece of anecdotal evidence I know, but there you go.

Twenty Grand wrote: »

And how would that entice ANYONE to study nursing?

Well, why do people get in to nursing as it stands?
In theory, everyone who has applied so far would still do so as they have known what the salary is and they have still chosen to do so. So, some might then choose to travel, but return to work out their obligation, thus increasing numbers on the wards, thus increasing the system, thus enticing more to choose it as a career.

daithi7

There are nursing vacancies in Ireland primarily because we have an expanding health service with a growing number of vacancies for nurses from increased budgets.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

then I believe they are an excessively high percentage of the nursing group
2 - a consultant friend told me that there were much greater numbers of nursing managers in a hospital here than one he worked at in Canada. Single piece of anecdotal evidence I know, but there you go.



Well, why do people get in to nursing as it stands?
In theory, everyone who has applied so far would still do so as they have known what the salary is and they have still chosen to do so. So, some might then choose to travel, but return to work out their obligation, thus increasing numbers on the wards, thus increasing the system, thus enticing more to choose it as a career.

What you believe and what a friend told you is not evidence. Any link to your claim?

Do you believe that student numbers in nursing would increase or decrease if new applicants were obliged to work in Ireland for a certain number of years or face financial penalties, while no other course or trade had the same restriction?

Snowbat

daithi7 wrote: »

Also how much more are they paid versus nurse in the NHS and other similar countries in Europe e.g. Holland, Belgium, etc, etc

These metrics would be insightful if only they were actually publicised!!

TheJournal.ie seems to be alone in reporting on this.
https://www.thejournal.ie/nurses-midwives-pay-4433076-Jan2019/
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/

hawkelady

daithi7 wrote: »

There are nursing vacancies in Ireland primarily because we have an expanding health service with a growing number of vacancies for nurses from increased budgets.

That’s a joke , right. Waiting lists are getting longer ffs. Wards are closing cause there are no staff to keep them open.
We really are going around in circles with some of these fg bots !

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

What you believe and what a friend told you is not evidence. Any link to your claim?

Do you believe that student numbers in nursing would increase or decrease if new applicants were obliged to work in Ireland for a certain number of years or face financial penalties, while no other course or trade had the same restriction?

As I said, it is anecdotal, but no less relevant than the posts that say "my experience with nurses means I think they should be paid more".

You could consider the 1st point of my post which relates to the average of 57K and where that is coming from if ward nurses are so underpaid.

On the second point, I don't honestly know. As I said, I think many would still do the course because they want to work in Ireland anyway.

alloywheel

Lillyfae wrote: »

As an aside my own father is a retired nurse (retired at 55 after 35 years of service) and for the life of me I cannot fathom where my parents get their money from. He even went back to night duty for his last 2 years because that's what counts for the pension.

You cannot fathom where your father, a retired nurse, gets his money from? He gets it from the taxpayer here, that is who. I know loads of public servants who retired at 55 / 60 on pensions of 35 and 40 k a year, plus a tax free lump sum of 18 months wages.

Twenty Grand

Tell me how wrote: »

As I said, it is anecdotal, but no less relevant than the posts that say "my experience with nurses means I think they should be paid more".

You could consider the 1st point of my post which relates to the average of 57K and where that is coming from if ward nurses are so underpaid.

On the second point, I don't honestly know. As I said, I think many would still do the course because they want to work in Ireland anyway.

Fair enough on the first point.

On the second, Ireland and every other country is in serious trouble when recruiting healthcare professionals.
I think we as a country need to seriously examine nursing and place massive incentives in place to encourage students to enter the profession.

This will undoubtedly be financial.

Regarding the suggestion to simply increase starting wages, you just end up compressing the wage bands, which leads to less financial reward for time served.

It's a chicken and egg situation.

Can't get the nurses to improve conditions
Can't encourage people into nursing until conditions improve.

eagle eye

facehugger99 wrote:

They're already well paid by every conceivable metric.

They are not well paid and cannot be compared to nurses in countries where they get all their breaks and have less patients to tend to.

alloywheel

Kivaro wrote: »

I keep hearing on news reports from nursing union representatives that they are still getting great public support.
That is simply not the case.

You can say it all you want, but when you initially say that you are striking for patient safety, and then walking off the job and actually putting patients' safety at risk, not to mention the major inconveniences that nurses are forcing on already vulnerable human beings and their families due to cancellations/rescheduling/stress etc., then we clearly see that it is not about patient safety.
The mask slipped (excuse the pun) when striking nurses outside the new children's hospital were complaining on television of the cost-overruns of the hospital and asked why that money should not be given to nurses instead.

I can assure the striking nurses that the majority of the public out there are not very happy with your strike-for-more-money actions.

I totally agree, and the lack of support for the striking nurses is coming from all segments of society. Most people are on less than the 57,000 or whatever the average nurse makes, and most people do not have the security, pension or perks of being a nurse ( high absenteeism rates etc). Very few people want to pay more tax just to pay nurses (and other public servants who will strike if nurses get their increase) more.
As someone else said, the only people beeping their horns with the nurses during the day were teachers.

Twenty Grand

alloywheel wrote: »

I totally agree, and the lack of support for the striking nurses is coming from all segments of society. Most people are on less than the 57,000 or whatever the average nurse makes, and most people do not have the security, pension or perks of being a nurse ( high absenteeism rates etc). Very few people want to pay more tax just to pay nurses (and other public servants who will strike if nurses get their increase) more.
As someone else said, the only people beeping their horns with the nurses during the day were teachers.

Lads, nurses are hiring if you're interested.

Then you could be in a cushy job with big money and all the perks instead of moaning about them.

Martina1991

Twenty Grand wrote:

2. Nurses want better conditions. Which involves the need for more nurses. Which they can't hire because few are applying for jobs.

I thought (open to correction) that nearly all new nursing graduates were offered jobs straight out of college in the hospitals they were on final year placement. A friend of mine graduated 2 years ago, she said her interview was a formality and she was guaranteed a job if she wanted it.

Twenty Grand

Martina1991 wrote: »

I thought (open to correction) that nearly all new nursing graduates were offered jobs straight out of college in the hospitals they were on final year placement. A friend of mine graduated 2 years ago, she said her interview was a formality and she was guaranteed a job if she wanted it.

Youre right.

Hospitals are hiring anyone they can. But there's still a huge shortage.