Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I left 'free' education at the age of 7 - in 1971- when I was transferred by my parents to a non-denominational private school - which means it got zero money from the State. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Not as much as the price of a pencil never mind a teacher's salary.

Actually this is a bugbear of mine, but since the early days of the State, all private schools at primary and secondary level have received state funding. The purpose for this was to ensure that children from non-Roman Catholic backgrounds had denominational education for their needs, but it applied (and still does apply) to all private schools in the state.

There was talk of ending public funding for private schools at the beginning of the last recession, but I think they only ended up tinkering with staff:student ratios.

I agree with everything else you said, but as I mentioned, this is a little bugbear of mine!

facehugger99

All this bullish:t with ‘allowances’.

It’s typical public service slight of hand to hide the true payments being made.

There needs to be clarity on these and the equivalent pension payments that the private sector are funding, if only so we can see how much of a ride we’re being on.

wrangler

feckthisgenie wrote: »

No it wasn't, that girl was separated parent of 2 children living on a single wage. Obviously no support from the father

I know the family, father paying the mortgage, and more, still has to rent a place for himself.....takes the kids four days a fortnight, has a good house rented because of that, it's about a mile from her if the journalist bothered to talk to him....works all the hours god gives to look after little girls. Girl was scandalously used by the cause

David73

RinusLaptop76 wrote: »

I don't mind being challenged at all, but don't ask for concrete numbers if you are not doing it yourself. I am surprised that with your high education your grammar and spelling is sh1t mate.

Come with concrete numbers as well when you challenge others for that, I'd say that is not more then fair.

You seem adament that I am in the wrong so go ahead and publish your findings and put me in my place Rinus! I doubt you will.

It's also important to look at the classification of a student loan. Many banks offer 0% overdraft on current account or student credit cards for a period. If a student uses this interest free facility as a method of paying for items online or abroad while they have sufficient cash in their bank account, is this really a student debt?

oh, I mistyped loan, therefore I must be illiterate.
I think you're completely petty Rinus in this whole argument.

RinusLaptop76

RinusLaptop76 wrote: »

Read back. This had to do with someone claiming nursing students have no student loans and their education is for free. I claimed that there are nursing students with loans and their study is not for free.

Sorry... I never said they have no loans.
4 years of third level is free.
& I'm sure many nursing students get grants for reg fees etc the same as any eligible student on other courses.

Varta

David73 wrote: »

Can you stop reacting to my comments, I find your replies insulting and uncomfortable.

I hope you understand.

Thank you!

Now you know how you made everyone else feel, that is, until they copped that you are a troll.

David73

facehugger99 wrote: »

All this bullish:t with ‘allowances’.

It’s typical public service slight of hand to hide the true payments being made.

There needs to be clarity on these and the equivalent pension payments that the private sector are funding, if only so we can see how much of a ride we’re being on.

Good point

David73

Varta wrote: »

Now you know how you made everyone else feel, that is, until they copped that you are a troll.

I make valid arguments without insulting anyone.

You insult me in saying I've a mental disorder when you don't like my valid arguments.

Looks like you're the Troll.
Ever get lonely in that box room in your Moms room insulting everyone you keyboard warrior?

feckthisgenie

wrangler wrote: »

I know the family, father paying the mortgage, and more, still has to rent a place for himself.....takes the kids four days a fortnight, has a good house rented because of that, it's about a mile from her if the journalist bothered to talk to him....works all the hours god gives to look after little girls. Girl was scandalously used by the cause

I also know the situation and I call bullsh1t on what you say. If the father pays and does all you say then why has there not been uproar on the false reporting?

Bannasidhe

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Actually this is a bugbear of mine, but since the early days of the State, all private schools at primary and secondary level have received state funding. The purpose for this was to ensure that children from non-Roman Catholic backgrounds had denominational education for their needs, but it applied (and still does apply) to all private schools in the state.

There was talk of ending public funding for private schools at the beginning of the last recession, but I think they only ended up tinkering with staff:student ratios.

I agree with everything else you said, but as I mentioned, this is a little bugbear of mine!

I agree but to clarify - only denominational or multi-denominational private schools get State funding. Non-denominational do not. Dept of Education rules.
So to have an education free completely free from religion in any form costs because it isn't subsidised in any way, shape, or form.
My school (since closed) was set up by 7 sisters in the 1920s as a protest against the interference of, primarily, the RCC in girls education but also against the if you are not a Catholic you must be a Protestant mindset. Cork at the time had a decent enough sized Jewish population and even a few Muslims and Hindus - ours was the school for them as well as the atheists.
To avoid State interference, it self funded. We didn't do religion classes - we did civics instead

wrangler

feckthisgenie wrote: »

I also know the situation and I call bullsh1t on what you say. If the father pays and does all you say then why has there not been uproar on the false reporting?

Go and visit them when the little girls are with him, they're in absolute luxury, a shocking thing to do to any man when he's doing his best, he'd take the kids all the time in a heartthrob, he pays the mortgage straight in.
Does she still smoke €100/week

Bannasidhe

Augeo wrote: »

Sorry... I never said they have no loans.
4 years of third level is free.
& I'm sure many nursing students get grants for reg fees etc the same as any eligible student on other courses.

Aw would you stop.
4 years of 3rd level is 12k in registration fees.
That. is. not. Free.

David73

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree but to clarify - only denominational or multi-denominational private schools get State funding. Non-denominational do not. Dept of Education rules.
So to have an education free completely free from religion in any form costs because it isn't subsidised in any way, shape, or form.
My school (since closed) was set up by 7 sisters in the 1920s as a protest against the interference of, primarily, the RCC in girls education but also against the if you are not a Catholic you must be a Protestant mindset. Cork at the time had a decent enough sized Jewish population and even a few Muslims and Hindus - ours was the school for them as well as the atheists.
To avoid State interference, it self funded. We didn't do religion classes - we did civics instead

Educate together schools do get Government funding.

Bannasidhe

David73 wrote: »

Educate together schools do get Government funding.

Educate together schools are multi-denominational not non-denominational.

I made the distinction very clear.

They are multi-denominational schools with non-denominational boards of management - meaning the patrons are not a religious body like the the RCC or COI.

But this thread isn't about that so I'll leave you to get back to complaining about Nursey's.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Aw would you stop.
4 years of 3rd level is 12k in registration fees.
That. is. not. Free.

If the registration fees are borrowed payment won't be deferred for 4 years..... take up your disagreement with free 3rd level with someone else.
It was free when I was there and still is

Sam Quentin

I think the nurses will 'stick' it out!? Well if the nurses are in any way like a couple of my friends ex wife's.. they hound them for every penny they can get from them always wanting more,more,more. The guys are not in high paying jobs and don't have a lot anyway,.but that doesn't matter All women want is diamonds and pearls. DIAMONDS and PEARLS lads. :-)))

Bannasidhe

Augeo wrote: »

If the registration fees are borrowed payment won't be deferred for 4 years..... take up your disagreement with free 3rd level with someone else.
It was free when I was there and still is

No. It isn't.
It's €3k a year.

Martina1991

RinusLaptop76 wrote:

A newly graduated nurse does not earn 40k, starts at about 24k, read back, there is a link for that, and I read up on it as well. Then pay back your loan and cost of living now, not so affordable as you say.

iebamm2580 wrote:

Plenty of people in the private sector who have student loans start on something similar so your point is simply not valid as to arguing for a pay increase, and you know damn well with allowances its much closer to 30k nurses start on.

The first point on a staff nurse pay scale is 29,345.

wrangler

Sam Quentin wrote: »

I think the nurses will 'stick' it out!? Well if the nurses are in any way like a couple of my friends ex wife's.. they hound them for every penny they can get from them always wanting more,more,more. The guys are not in high paying jobs and don't have a lot anyway,.but that doesn't matter All women want is diamonds and pearls. DIAMONDS and PEARLS lads. :-)))

Going to the Irish Times was a bit over the top, husband self employed, you know what that's like..if that typifies nurses.!!!!!
They were delighted to get a story to support the cause no matter what harm they done
Shameful

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. It isn't.
It's €3k a year.

Free fees.....

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/fees.html

Bannasidhe

Augeo wrote: »

Free fees.....

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/fees.html

From that very link

Most colleges charge an annual student contribution, formerly called the student services charge. It is also known as a registration fee and it covers student services and examinations. The amount of the contribution varies from one institution to another. The maximum rate of the student contribution for the academic year 2018-2019 is €3,000.

If there is charge it's not free.

You said 3rd level is essentially free. Your words, not mine.
You did not say 3rd level students on their first undergraduate degree do not have to pay tuition fees - which would be essentially correct.

Essentially free is incorrect because "Most colleges charge an annual student contribution" - says it right there in the link you provided.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Augeo wrote: »

Free fees.....

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/fees.html

Amazing how a discussion on the Nurses strike is absorbed by pedantic argument over the cost of third level education. For what it's worth there is a charge (fee, contribution, whatever you wish to call it) of €3000pa. In addition there is the cost of accommodation, which is substantial. But, it's all moot as it's not unique to the study of Nursing or Midwifery, nor is it pertinent to the strike.

RinusLaptop76

Augeo wrote: »

Sorry... I never said they have no loans.
4 years of third level is free.
& I'm sure many nursing students get grants for reg fees etc the same as any eligible student on other courses.

Again no facts, I am sure you say, and then it is fine, if others say it like that it has to backed by numbers etc.

wrangler

feckthisgenie wrote: »

I also know the situation and I call bullsh1t on what you say. If the father pays and does all you say then why has there not been uproar on the false reporting?

Don't you know that item wasn't released without being checked by professionals, She just didn't credit him and everyone assumed he wasn't around same as you, she doesn't say he has the children as much as he has either.
She didn't tell lies , she just didn't tell everything

RinusLaptop76

Martina1991 wrote: »

The first point on a staff nurse pay scale is 29,345.

I stand corrected

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

From that very link


If there is charge it's not free.

You said 3rd level is essentially free. Your words, not mine.
You did not say 3rd level students on their first undergraduate degree do not have to pay tuition fees - which would be essentially correct.

Essentially free is incorrect because "Most colleges charge an annual student contribution" - says it right there in the link you provided.

The tuition is free, the education part.

Samantha Icy Rubbish

Samantha Icy Rubbish wrote: »

Amazing how a discussion on the Nurses strike is absorbed by pedantic argument over the cost of third level education. For what it's worth there is a charge (fee, contribution, whatever you wish to call it) of €3000pa. In addition there is the cost of accommodation, which is substantial. But, it's all moot as it's not unique to the study of Nursing or Midwifery, nor is it pertinent to the strike.

Indeed it is a moot point.
I didn't bring it up

RinusLaptop76

RinusLaptop76 wrote: »

Again no facts, I am sure you say, and then it is fine, if others say it like that it has to backed by numbers etc.

Reckoning some nursing students get grants needs to be backed up by facts ?
Are you serious?

judeboy101

I see 3 outcomes.

1. Gov do nothing, eventually nurses pockets start taking a hit from no pay and they do ****ty deal

2. Gov apply fempi to nurses as they have broken pay agreement, nurses go all out strike , someone dies as result in hospital and ****ty deal done.

3. Nurses agree to stop protest and "commission" set up to look into blah blah blah....

wrangler

RinusLaptop76 wrote: »

I stand corrected

I doubt if the government believes the poor mouth effort outa them if their salaries are that good.

David73

Martina1991 wrote: »

The first point on a staff nurse pay scale is 29,345.

Martina girl, Rinus does not deal in facts.

They are into spouting poor mothery outta their ass, to suit their own agenda.

Just like the nurses claims for a pay increase!

David73

Augeo wrote: »

Reckoning some nursing students get grants needs to be backed up by facts ?
Are you serious?

Auego, that Rinus has been spouting ****e all day with no referenses. When they are challenged they simply insult the others argument and demand references !

Rinus quoted nurses start at 24k, was then caught out as they start at 29k

Fann Linn

judeboy101 wrote: »

I see 3 outcomes.

1. Gov do nothing, eventually nurses pockets start taking a hit from no pay and they do ****ty deal

2. Gov apply fempi to nurses as they have broken pay agreement, nurses go all out strike , someone dies as result in hospital and ****ty deal done.

3. Nurses agree to stop protest and "commission" set up to look into blah blah blah....

Allowances being looked at now which probably means some mechanism is found to pay them without impacting on the other PS unions and latest pay agreement.

TheRiverman

I know this discussion has been partly hijacked by posts on third level fees,but in relation to those fees I think every third level student regardless of what course he or she is doing has to pay a €3000 registration fee for each year of their course.Depending on their family financial circumstances students are entitled to apply to SUSI for a grant to cover in full or part cover the registration fees,also a student is entitled to an accommodation/ travel payment depending on the distance between their home and the college.Those grants/allowances are means tested by SUSI.

BarryD2

judeboy101 wrote: »

I see 3 outcomes.

1. Gov do nothing, eventually nurses pockets start taking a hit from no pay and they do ****ty deal

2. Gov apply fempi to nurses as they have broken pay agreement, nurses go all out strike , someone dies as result in hospital and ****ty deal done.

3. Nurses agree to stop protest and "commission" set up to look into blah blah blah....

The INMO has a big call to make tomorrow. A three day consecutive strike is a huge escalation and can do as much damage to the nurses reputation as the governments. And will individual nurses just start breaking the pickets out of a sense of duty & care? I don't think they ever thought it'd go this far.

trellheim

The INMO has a big call to make tomorrow. A three day consecutive strike is a huge escalation and can do as much damage to the nurses reputation as the governments. And will individual nurses just start breaking the pickets out of a sense of duty & care? I don't think they ever thought it'd go this far.

A: No they wont pass pickets
B: Yes they did. It was a 95% ballot for action all the way.

INMO have been very clear on this. Even the LUAS drivers had more action from the Management side at this stage and they were the least deserving of any cohort in the last decade of a payrise.

tayto lover

BarryD2 wrote: »

The INMO has a big call to make tomorrow. A three day consecutive strike is a huge escalation and can do as much damage to the nurses reputation as the governments. And will individual nurses just start breaking the pickets out of a sense of duty & care? I don't think they ever thought it'd go this far.

Far too much emphasis on “reputation” and “public opinion”.
When you strike you put all that kind of rubbish aside and fight only for what you want.
Individual nurses will stick to what the Union want them to stick to.

Inspector Coptoor

tayto lover wrote: »

Far too much emphasis on “reputation” and “public opinion”.
When you strike you put all that kind of rubbish aside and fight only for what you want.
Individual nurses will stick to what the Union want them to stick to.

Exactly.

Public opinion my arse.

Most people from Joe Public aren’t exactly fans of our elected officials.

Doesn’t stop our elected officials getting away with gouging us.
High taxation and SH1T€ services.

Pay front line staff more.

alloywheel

David73 wrote: »

Yes Engineers start on a lower salary and an engineering course is far more academically challenging than a nursey degree

So do architects, its a longer and more difficult course than nursing and upon completion of 5 years 3rd level, architects get paid peanuts for 2 years if they are lucky enough to get a job at all. And during the recession 70% lost their jobs. How many nurses lost their jobs?

tayto lover

alloywheel wrote: »

So do architects, its a longer and more difficult course than nursing and upon completion of 5 years 3rd level, architects get paid peanuts for 2 years if they are lucky enough to get a job at all. And during the recession 70% lost their jobs. How many nurses lost their jobs?

Get out there and strike then and show a bit of backbone.

David73

alloywheel wrote: »

So do architects, its a longer and more difficult course than nursing and upon completion of 5 years 3rd level, architects get paid peanuts for 2 years if they are lucky enough to get a job at all. And during the recession 70% lost their jobs. How many nurses lost their jobs?

Be careful there Alloywheel you're making too much of a valid counter argument there. The likes of Mike, Vartra, feckthisgenie and Rinus won't like that at all!

alloywheel

tayto lover wrote: »

Far too much emphasis on “reputation” and “public opinion”.
When you strike you put all that kind of rubbish aside and fight only for what you want.

I agree, nurses now have a very low reputation with most members of the public when they put their own selfish claim for a pay increase ahead of appointments with cancer patients, which were cancelled.

The nurses are going to be disappointed with their union leading them astray when they strike and get nothing. The government cannot give them anything because that would be unfair to other hospital staff, and because the government is 200 billion in debt with Brexit and a probable recession coming.

feckthisgenie

BarryD2 wrote: »

The INMO has a big call to make tomorrow. A three day consecutive strike is a huge escalation and can do as much damage to the nurses reputation as the governments. And will individual nurses just start breaking the pickets out of a sense of duty & care? I don't think they ever thought it'd go this far.

The ball is in the government's court now.
This hasn't been sprung on them, these 3 days are known weeks now and the government should have it sorted by now, so blood will be on their hands.
But our government would rather pay 100's of millions to junior bondholders and prop up the banks then play nurses

alloywheel

tayto lover wrote: »

Get out there and strike then and show a bit of backbone.

There would be no point in architects or most people in the private sector striking because wherever they work would simply be forced to close.

alloywheel

feckthisgenie wrote: »

But our government would rather pay 100's of millions to junior bondholders and prop up the banks then play nurses

It was the EU who forced the government not to burn the bondholders and creditor banks in Europe. Blame our government and the EU for that. That was a different matter to public sector pay.

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

This country will be bankrupt again in a few years if we carry on public spending. It wont be the public sector that will lose their jobs and be forced to emigrate then

Well said.

pwurple

alloywheel wrote: »

There would be no point in architects or most people in the private sector striking because wherever they work would simply be forced to close.

Pretty sure architects and engineers and project managers and waitresses all get paid more in Dubai and uae too.

tayto lover

alloywheel wrote: »

I agree, nurses now have a very low reputation with most members of the public when they put their own selfish claim for a pay increase ahead of appointments with cancer patients, which were cancelled.

The nurses are going to be disappointed with their union leading them astray when they strike and get nothing. The government cannot give them anything because that would be unfair to other hospital staff, and because the government is 200 billion in debt with Brexit and a probable recession coming.

Ah for Jaysus sake they said the same about the Garda, Luas drivers and every other organization that ever had a strike or threatened one. Reputation me hole.

If you want anything you have to fight for it. Reputation butters no parsnips.
They found money for the Garda quick enough from that empty purse.

Fann Linn

alloywheel wrote: »

There would be no point in architects or most people in the private sector striking because wherever they work would simply be forced to close.

Plenty of private sector workers have gone on strike, Dunnes stores and Luas for starters.

feckthisgenie

Fann Linn wrote: »

Plenty of private sector workers have gone on strike, Dunnes stores and Luas for starters.

Luas was the biggest joke of the lot

alloywheel

And that is just one of many reasons why the nurses will not get it: if they get it then the physios and hospital porters and ambulance drivers and clerical staff and teachers and you name it will want it too. €58,000 a year is average pay of nurses and compares favourably with other peoples income as it is.