Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

mooreman09

I still support the nurses!!!

facehugger99

hawkelady wrote: »

where’s all you do is scratch yourself and stroll to the shops in your pjs for your family’s spaghetti and toast dinner !

Put down the shovel and stop digging - you're only making a show of yourself.

Twenty Grand

iebamm2580 wrote: »

So we cant compare any job to nurse pay unless its public sector? Your just suiting your argument, my point was and is still valid that many jobs are tougher than nursing and dont get paid as much.

I fully support the nurses.

If the government aren't willing to increase pay and improve conditions in order to recruit more nurses, then I'd highly recommend that existing nurses look abroad to countries with safe patient to nurse ratios and better conditions.

You have an internationally recognized skill, don't be afraid to market yourself to other countries where you'll be appreciated far more than here.

ohnonotgmail

iebamm2580 wrote: »

So we cant compare any job to nurse pay unless its public sector? Your just suiting your argument, my point was and is still valid that many jobs are tougher than nursing and dont get paid as much.

how can you make a comparison to private sectors workers when private sector wages vary wildly?



So what are these jobs that require a degree and are tougher with lower wages?

TheRiverman

trellheim wrote: »

you think Phil Sheedys driving this ? With a 95% mandate for action shes only carrying out members wishes.

Government can end this immediately they see fit. Get away with your guff about causing patient suffering. Every nurse I've talked to wants to get back to work with their pay properly equalized.

Phil Sheedy ?.

Ginger83

road_high wrote: »

If only they could magic up the billions this will cost in itself and knock on pay claims!
Of course patients will and are suffering. It might be just be “guff” to you but it’s real patients life and health they’re weaponising now.

There will always be casualties of war.

How many lives are lost each year to government incompetence?

iebamm2580

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how can you make a comparison to private sectors workers when private sector wages vary wildly?



So what are these jobs that require a degree and are tougher with lower wages?

Who said anything about having a degree? Anybody that has a degree knows they are easy to come by, i studied science btw so i know what i am talking about.

ohnonotgmail

iebamm2580 wrote: »

Who said anything about having a degree?

Well if you are comparing nurses to other workers surely you should be comparing them to others with the same level of qualifications?

iebamm2580 wrote: »

Anybody that has a degree knows they are easy to come by,
i studied science btw so i know what i am talking about.

UCD presumably?

Ginger83

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Nurses have bitten off more than they expected.
Public support is waning.
Leo is holding strong.
Vive la resistancé!!

Horse****, strikes will increase, 4 in a row, 5 in a row until the system is on its knees

iebamm2580

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well if you are comparing nurses to other workers surely you should be comparing them to others with the same level of qualifications?






UCD presumably?

No you presume wrong. Are you honestly saying that degrees are hard to come by? I have seen some of the least intelligent people get a degree and that includes nurses.

daithi7

Nearly 4000 posts later and 6 things haven't changed:

1. Irish nurses are still paid significantly more than their UK (& other EU) equivalents
2. We have a higher number of nurses per patient (by ~30%) in Ireland versus the OECD average
3. Irish nurses are currently enjoying significant pay rises, on already inflated salaries under the current public sector pay deal, with further increases due, far exceeding levels of inflation & CPI
4. A further increase in nurses pay rises will lead to the other public sector unions demanding more too, this with the economy maxed out, yet we are borrowing (without technical tax bonuses) to fund current expenditures
5. The Irish healthcare system is the worst value in the world (source OECD)
6. The aggressive strike actions from the nursing unions are impacting on sick people's healthcare when they are at their most vulnerable.
(This is particularly cruel & cynical by the nursing unions, as most of these sick patients will have worked in the private sector, having already paid overly high levels of tax throughout their working lives to fund already excessive public sector pay & pensions. Yet, when they are old and most feeble the nurses are opting to explicitly neglect their healthcare for the nurses's own agenda. This is simply mean, patently unfair and needs to be highlighted far clearer imho)

As far as I am concerned, if the nurses keep acting like this, the best solution might be to lay off the whole lot of them and privatise nursing in the Irish health system and see how the unions and their members like working in the private sector.
That should now be put as a clear option to them IMHO.

ohnonotgmail

iebamm2580 wrote: »

No you presume wrong. Are you honestly saying that degrees are hard to come by? I have seen some of the least intelligent people get a degree and that includes nurses.

UCC or UCG??



whether degrees are hard to come by or not if you are comparing salaries then you have to compare to people on the same educational level. You mentioned bin men as one example. do you honestly think bin men should get paid as much as nurses? It is not like collecting refuse is a hard physical job anymore. they wheel the bins to the lorry and the lorry does the rest.

boardise

The more of anything there is -the less valuable it is . Basic logic and common sense .
Same applies to Degrees - Bachelor degrees mean little -Masters degrees going the same way -the dogs of the road have them. More and more people of only average intelligence and ability getting Doctorates. I spent many decades lecturing in Universities so I have some insight into this dilution process.

Twenty Grand

daithi7 wrote: »

Nearly 4000 posts later and 6 things haven't changed:

1. Irish nurses are still paid significantly more than their UK (& other EU) equivalents
2. We have a higher number (~30%) of nurses per patient in Ireland versus the OECD average
3. Irish nurses are already enjoying significant pay rises, on already inflated salaries under the current public sector pay deal, with further increases due ahead of inflation & cpi
4. A further increase is nurses pay rises due will lead to all public sector unions demanding more too, this with the economy maxed out yet we are already borrowing (without technical tax bonuses) to fund current expenditures
5. The Irish healthcare system is the worst value in the world (source OECD)
6. The aggressive strike actions from the nursing unions are impacting on sick people's healthcare when they are at their most vulnerable.
(This is particularly cruel & cynical by the nursing unions, as most of these sick patients will have worked in the private sector, having already paid overly high levels of tax throughout their working lives to fund already excessive public sector pay & pensions. Yet, when they are old and most feeble the nurses neglect their healthcare for the nurses own ends. This is lousy, patently unfair and needs to be highlighted far clearer imho)

As far as I am concerned, if they keep acting like this, the best solution might be to lay off the whole lot of them and privatise nursing in the Irish health system and see how the unions and their members like working in the private sector. It should be put as a clear option to them IMHO,

Nearly 4000 posts later and 1 thing hasn't changed:

People are STILL quoting the OECD study that is inaccurate.

it is important to point out that the OECD data on nurses’ remuneration, which is frequently used as an indication of where Irish nurses fall on the scale, is not (by the OECD’s own admission) a reliable source.
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/

Phil Ní Sheaghdha, general secretary of the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, described the report as “wildly inaccurate to the point of being grossly misleading”.

She said it exaggerated pay for nurses and midwives in Ireland by including allowances which did not universally apply and treating shift pay in respect of night and weekend working as if it were basic pay.

“This report represents a department in denial. If any of it were true why did the HSE’s ‘ Bring them Home’ campaign fail so miserably. Why are our wards and services continually working understaffed? Why are Irish nurses and midwives leaving our shores for better conditions elsewhere and why is our health service so dependent on foreign recruitment,” she said.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/review-states-no-exodus-of-nurses-while-pay-competitive-1.3570521

brendanwalsh

daithi7 wrote: »

Nearly 4000 posts later and 6 things haven't changed:

1. Irish nurses are still paid significantly more than their UK (& other EU) equivalents
2. We have a higher number of nurses per patient (by ~30%) in Ireland versus the OECD average
3. Irish nurses are currently enjoying significant pay rises, on already inflated salaries under the current public sector pay deal, with further increases due, far exceeding levels of inflation & CPI
4. A further increase in nurses pay rises will lead to the other public sector unions demanding more too, this with the economy maxed out, yet we are borrowing (without technical tax bonuses) to fund current expenditures
5. The Irish healthcare system is the worst value in the world (source OECD)
6. The aggressive strike actions from the nursing unions are impacting on sick people's healthcare when they are at their most vulnerable.
(This is particularly cruel & cynical by the nursing unions, as most of these sick patients will have worked in the private sector, having already paid overly high levels of tax throughout their working lives to fund already excessive public sector pay & pensions. Yet, when they are old and most feeble the nurses are opting to explicitly neglect their healthcare for the nurses's own agenda. This is simply mean, patently unfair and needs to be highlighted far clearer imho)

As far as I am concerned, if the nurses keep acting like this, the best solution might be to lay off the whole lot of them and privatise nursing in the Irish health system and see how the unions and their members like working in the private sector.
That should now be put as a clear option to them IMHO.

Well said Sir.
Burn their feet in the fire, their tired little legs are wearing and ten thousand steps per day is no longer fun.
The night of the long knives is upon us, the handmaids will suffer.

iebamm2580

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

UCC or UCG??



whether degrees are hard to come by or not if you are comparing salaries then you have to compare to people on the same educational level. You mentioned bin men as one example. do you honestly think bin men should get paid as much as nurses? It is not like collecting refuse is a hard physical job anymore. they wheel the bins to the lorry and the lorry does the rest.

Look im just saying that having a degree doesn't mean much theses days so cant be used as a bargaining chip, yes i would agree that binmen done deserve the same pay, we can agree on that ha.

tayto lover

iebamm2580 wrote: »

No you presume wrong. Are you honestly saying that degrees are hard to come by? I have seen some of the least intelligent people get a degree and that includes nurses.

You must have a fine collection yourself then.

Theboinkmaster

daithi7 wrote: »

Nearly 4000 posts later and 6 things haven't changed:

1. Irish nurses are still paid significantly more than their UK (& other EU) equivalents

Not sure about this, then why is there such poor supply of Irish nurses?

iebamm2580

tayto lover wrote: »

You must have a fine collection yourself then.

Why would somebody want a collection of degrees? I got my one, got employed immediately after college and now work in a lab on a very good salary that i am appreciative of.

Varta

iebamm2580 wrote: »

Why would somebody want a collection of degrees? I got my one, got employed immediately after college and now work in a lab on a very good salary that i am appreciative of.

More like you are being worked on in a lab.

iebamm2580

Varta wrote: »

More like you are being worked on in a lab.

oh the humor, are you actually an adult, you post like a 10 year old child.

tayto lover

iebamm2580 wrote: »

Why would somebody want a collection of degrees? I got my one, got employed immediately after college and now work in a lab on a very good salary that i am appreciative of.

A rat?

TheRiverman

TheRiverman wrote: »

Phil Sheedy ?.

I presume that poster is referring to Phil Ní Sheaghdha

iebamm2580

tayto lover wrote: »

A rat?

yes we are called lab rats which i am not offended by in the least unlike some of this snowflake generation who take everything as an insult.

Twenty Grand

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Not sure about this, then why is there such poor supply of Irish nurses?

It doesn't suit any of the anti-nurse agenda to answer this question.
They'll mention stuff about young nurses just wanting to travel, but ignore that understaffing has been an issue in Irish hospitals for the last decade at least.

No other industry has such chronic understaffing due to people simply not wanting to do the job, or not wanting to do the job in Ireland.

Why would you work in Irish conditions for Irish pay when you can go abroad and be appreciated?

INMO general secretary, Liam Doran said the figures reinforce the need to improve the pay and conditions offered to nurses.

"A total of 7,500 Irish-trained nurses went to Britain in the last six years - and we've only brought 91 home," he said.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hse-campaign-to-bring-nurses-home-attracts-few-takers-35737729.html

People here are more worried about the pennies in their pocket now that the health of themselves and their families

TheRiverman

daithi7 wrote: »

Nearly 4000 posts later and 6 things haven't changed:

1. Irish nurses are still paid significantly more than their UK (& other EU) equivalents
2. We have a higher number of nurses per patient (by ~30%) in Ireland versus the OECD average
3. Irish nurses are currently enjoying significant pay rises, on already inflated salaries under the current public sector pay deal, with further increases due, far exceeding levels of inflation & CPI
4. A further increase in nurses pay rises will lead to the other public sector unions demanding more too, this with the economy maxed out, yet we are borrowing (without technical tax bonuses) to fund current expenditures
5. The Irish healthcare system is the worst value in the world (source OECD)
6. The aggressive strike actions from the nursing unions are impacting on sick people's healthcare when they are at their most vulnerable.
(This is particularly cruel & cynical by the nursing unions, as most of these sick patients will have worked in the private sector, having already paid overly high levels of tax throughout their working lives to fund already excessive public sector pay & pensions. Yet, when they are old and most feeble the nurses are opting to explicitly neglect their healthcare for the nurses's own agenda. This is simply mean, patently unfair and needs to be highlighted far clearer imho)

As far as I am concerned, if the nurses keep acting like this, the best solution might be to lay off the whole lot of them and privatise nursing in the Irish health system and see how the unions and their members like working in the private sector.
That should now be put as a clear option to them IMHO.

The Telecom Eirean debacle in 1999 means that trying to privatise either fully or partly any Public Service company/service would be very difficult.

hawkelady

I think the government know that if there is no agreement this evening , then the inmo will just keep going with the strike action , I hear they have dates agreed upon for the following three weeks !!! I can’t see the inmo backing down at all now , if they do , it’ll be seen as a huge climb down which will be seen for decades to come and they will never be taken seriously again !!! I’d put money on there will be an agreement tonight

facehugger99

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Why would you work in Irish conditions for Irish pay when you can go abroad and be appreciated?

Well why don't they just fcuk off then?

Find a country that's not 200 billion in debt that can afford to pay them what they feel entitled to - I hear the Middle East is lovely this time of year.

If they want to stay in Ireland they need to accept they're working in a Country that has been bankrupted by Public Sector greed over the decades - there' no more money left - Boo Hoo, it's very sad

tayto lover

iebamm2580 wrote: »

yes we are called lab rats which i am not offended by in the least unlike some of this snowflake generation who take everything as an insult.

Good man. I hope you have the guts to tell the nurses what you think the next time you are lying on a hospital bed. I seriously doubt you would.

daithi7

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Not sure about this, then why is there such poor supply of Irish nurses?

There isn't. This claim is completely bogus.

Most Irish nursing vacancies are filled easily with many applications per post. This is in an expanding health service that we are all paying for btw, where you might expect more shortages than in usual times. Also, the churn rates in Irish nursing staffing are low.

These findings were published and publicized through a specific study on the sector (by the government iirc). Yet eejits in the media still get this repeatedly assways on a daily basis e.g. Ciara Kelly on Newstalk.

Some nurses also actively contribute to this 'fake news' through inaccurate soundbytes, etc and through their union representatives who are very economical with the truth i.e. they lie their t**s off!!

TheRiverman

Unfortunately we didn't see this level of intensity by the INMO years ago,particularly back in 2010 when there was the recruitment embargo.Liam Doran just didn't have the balls to do it.Well done to Phil Ni Sheaghda.

iebamm2580

tayto lover wrote: »

Good man. I hope you have the guts to tell the nurses what you think the next time you are lying on a hospital bed. I seriously doubt you would.

I already said i think nurses have a tough job but dont think they do anything out of the ordinary to feel so entitled to a pay rise when they agreed a pay deal last year or the year before.

Theboinkmaster

daithi7 wrote: »

There isn't. This claim is completely bogus.

Most Irish nursing vacancies are filled easily with many applications per post.

I'm not so sure about this, having been in Holles St and Crumlin many times there are always a significant amount of non-Irish nursing staff who did not train in Ireland.

So where are all the Irish nurses?

trellheim

tayto lover wrote: »

Good man. I hope you have the guts to tell the nurses what you think the next time you are lying on a hospital bed. I seriously doubt you would.

lol, some of the folk here based on their keyboard warrior postings would be very happy to tell the nurse just how much they think they should be paid when they get wheeled into A&E.

daithi7

tayto lover wrote: »

Good man. I hope you have the guts to tell the nurses what you think the next time you are lying on a hospital bed. I seriously doubt you would.

Why should he or any other tax payer have to???

We have all (over) paid already for the privilege of using the worst value healthcare system in the world (source OECD), so kindly fup off with ideas about having to be on the nurses 'side' to get treatment. We pay, so provide, simples!!

Twenty Grand

facehugger99 wrote: »

Well why don't they just fcuk off then?

Find a country that's not 200 billion in debt that can afford to pay them what they feel entitled to - I hear the Middle East is lovely this time of year.

If they want to stay in Ireland they need to accept they're working in a Country that has been bankrupted by Public Sector greed over the decades - there' no
more money left - Boo Hoo, it's very sad

They are, in their thousands, and I fully support them in their venture. And now the ones that are left are on strike due to understaffing.

He warned that industrial stability could be jeopardised if the Government does not improve pay, and adequately tackle staff recruitment and retention problems in the health service.
"Meanwhile the NHS are going to become more aggressive in their recruitment campaigns. We simply won't solve our problems in this country until we solve the pay problem. Britain is offering much better packages, better educational opportunities, and better pay," he said.

Almost like this strike was predicted huh?

daithi7 wrote: »

There isn't. This claim is completely bogus.

Most Irish nursing vacancies are filled easily with many applications per post. This is in an expanding health service that we are all paying for btw, where you might expect more shortages than in usual times. Also, the churn rates in Irish nursing staffing are low.

These findings were published and publicised through a specific study on the sector (by the government iirc). Yet eejits in the media still get this repeatedly assways on a daily basis e.g. Ciara Kelly on Newstalk.

Nurses also contribute to this 'fake news' through inaccurate soundbytes, etc

Care to throw up a link to that?
My link was from May last year.
Considering the Dept. of Health started the Bring them Home campaign, I imagine the Dept. of Health recognize there's a nurse shortage.

A recent survey found 80pc of nurses and midwives due to qualify this year are planning to work abroad.

"A total of 7,500 Irish-trained nurses went to Britain in the last six years - and we've only brought 91 home," he said.

Varta

tayto lover wrote: »

Good man. I hope you have the guts to tell the nurses what you think the next time you are lying on strapped to a hospital bed. I seriously doubt you would.

I imagine it happens to him regularly.

upinsmoke

If working in major cities they should get extra like Dublin or Cork. Otherwise no.

Same as other jobs such as teaching etc

iebamm2580

Varta wrote: »

I imagine it happens to him regularly.

your wit is legendary, how do you think of these?

tayto lover

daithi7 wrote: »

Why should he or any other tax payer have to???

We have all (over) paid already for the privilege of using the worst value healthcare system in the world (source OECD), so kindly fup off with ideas about having to be on the nurses 'side' to get treatment. We've paid so provide, simples!!

And you’re blaming nurses because the health service is poor value for money???
You need to aim higher son.

daithi7

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I'm not so sure about this, having been in Holles St and Crumlin many times there are always a significant amount of non-Irish nursing staff who did not train in Ireland.

So where are all the Irish nurses?

I dunno. We have an ever expanding requirement so I guess there is also a requirement for overseas nurses in our system in a stringly funded healthcare system like we have.

My dad is getting treated for cancer currently (with his treatment disrupted due to these strike actions btw), and all his nurses have been Irish thus far. So different hospitals, areas ~ different ethnicity of nursing staff I guess!?

road_high

daithi7 wrote: »

My dad is getting treated for cancer currently (with his treatment disrupted due to these strike actions btw), and all his nurses have been Irish thus far. So different hospitals, areas ~ different ethnicity of nursing staff I guess!?

Very sorry they are using patients like your da in this way. Hope it doesn't affect him too much and can be reschduled.

daithi7

tayto lover wrote: »

And you’re blaming nurses because the health service is poor value for money???
You need to aim higher son.

I'll make this easy for you (as it obviously has to be )

if the number of nurses per patient in Ireland are over 30% higher than the OECD average which they are apparently. And irish nursing pay is on average 25% higher (using the irish versus UK average) then:

Irish nursing costs per patient are 1.25 x 1.3 = 1.625 times more costly than the OECD average.

The Irish nurses are not the problem per se, it is paying them too much and their inefficiency (probably due to poor deployment & working practices) that is costing Irish taxpayers 60% more per patient.

p.s. of course this is before taking account of nurse's sick day levels which are high apparently and bed utilisation levels & practices which are also supposed to be poor. So I think you could make a reasonable guesstimate that we are already paying ~ twice as much per patient for nursing in Ireland than the OECD average. That is a costly disgrace imho.

p.s. you need to try to think before you post in future. I know it's challenging but it might be worth it

Twenty Grand

daithi7 wrote: »

I'll make this easy for you (as it obviously has to be )

if the number of nurses per patient in Ireland are over 30% higher than the OECD average which they are apparently Untrue. And irish nursing pay is on average 25% higher (using the irish versus UK average) Using dodgy counting that includes Irish overtime and allowances, but not UKthen:

Irish nursing costs per patient are 1.25 x 1.3 = 1.625 times more costly than the OECD average.

The Irish nurses are not the problem per se, it is paying them too much and inefficiency that is costing us 60% more per patient than anything else.

p.s. of course this is before taking account of nurse's sick day levels Dodgy sources at best!which are high apparently and bed utilisation levels & practices which are poor.Because of understaffing So I think you could make a reasonable guesstimate that we are already paying nearly twice as much per patient for nursing in Ireland than the OECD averageInaccurate report.

p.s. you need to try to think before you post in future. I know it's challenging but it might be worth it

Stop using incorrect numbers because they suit your agenda

How the OECD quantifies wages and nurses number is incorrect. They say so in the report!!

Nearly 4000 posts later and 1 thing hasn't changed:
People are STILL quoting the OECD study that is inaccurate.

it is important to point out that the OECD data on nurses’ remuneration, which is frequently used as an indication of where Irish nurses fall on the scale, is not (by the OECD’s own admission) a reliable source.
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/

hawkelady

Inmo executive council meeting at 5:30. Fairly sure strikes will be called off for tomorrow

facehugger99

The IMMO will need to be thrown some sort of bone to allow them to call off the action while still preserving some face.

I'd expect it to be something that doesn't actually increase pay levels. IMMO can claim that the strikes were never about pay anyway. :rolleyes:

I'd say they're seriously regretting this - they won't be able to go on strike again for years and the other public service unions have had their papers marked.

Could be a victory for the taxpayer yet.

Twenty Grand

facehugger99 wrote: »

Could be a victory for the taxpayer yet.

I don't think the taxpayer has ever gotten any victories out of the HSE.
I don't expect this to be one either.

road_high

facehugger99 wrote: »

The IMMO will need to be thrown some sort of bone to allow them to call off the action while still preserving some face.

I'd expect it to be something that doesn't actually increase pay levels. IMMO can claim that the strikes were never about pay anyway. :rolleyes:

I'd say they're seriously regretting this - they won't be able to go on strike again for years and the other public service unions have had their papers marked.

Could be a victory for the taxpayer yet.

Certainly not going to plan as they'd wished. The state aren't going to cave, the nurses are losing public support, and individual nurses are presumably losing many days pay and facing an even bigger hole in their wages if this drags on much longer. And all for nothing.

trellheim

f the number of nurses per patient in Ireland are over 30% higher than the OECD average which they are apparently. And irish nursing pay is on average 25% higher (using the irish versus UK average) then:

Irish nursing costs per patient are 1.25 x 1.3 = 1.625 times more costly than the OECD average.

The Irish nurses are not the problem per se, it is paying them too much and inefficiency that is costing us 60% more per patient than anything else.

p.s. of course this is before taking account of nurse's sick day levels which are high apparently and bed utilisation levels & practices which are poor. So I think you could make a reasonable guesstimate that we are already paying nearly twice as much per patient for nursing in Ireland than the OECD average.

p.s. you need to try to think before you post in future. I know it's challenging but it might be worth i

What input do line nurses have into the HSE Annual Service plan there sunshine which is the actual document you need to be arguing FTE numbers about ? Answer - diddly squat. Go do some research on how our Health System actually runs.

Is it messed up ? Sure is. INMO have engaged with management several times "if you do this favour we'll staff that ward ( e.g. recruit the correct number of FTEs) . 1 year later zero recruits and people still busting their nut to keep things going "

brendanwalsh

If they get 1% or 12%, the handmaids will be going into the same sh1te work conditions and career prospects tomorrow and will still have one eye on a visa to dubai/ oz.