Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Graces7

Good to see this

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0211/1028768-nurses-strikes-labour-court-talks/

Galwayguy35

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

But but but but.

We aren't in the UK are we, maybe you'd like to be I have no idea, but we aren't.

Desperation for nurses mean the HSE has to pay that. Most other nursing agencies have been blasted out of existence. Because being a good private sector man like yourself surely you can see, a nurse will go where the pay is best?

SNG basic, no frills wage is €31.50 an hour. Impossible to earn that working for the HSE as a staff nurse. And I'm qualified 20 years, and work unsociable hours and don't earn €57,000 a year.

Maybe you should follow your own advice then and go where the pay is best instead of whinging about it.

Galwayguy35

Going by the comments I've seen from nurses on articles about the proposed deal it looks like they will vote to reject it.

Alrigghtythen

Agency staff should be taken on as proper staff. It costs a fortune for agency staff and the nurses are more willing to be agency staff as the money is better

How is giving them a payrise going to improve their conditions?

Wheeliebin30

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Agency staff should be taken on as proper staff. It costs a fortune for agency staff and the nurses are more willing to be agency staff as the money is better

How is giving them a payrise going to improve their conditions?

Well that’s what they wanted.

A pay rise.

monkeybutter

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Agency staff should be taken on as proper staff. It costs a fortune for agency staff and the nurses are more willing to be agency staff as the money is better

How is giving them a payrise going to improve their conditions?

the whole point is that they are under staffed, increased pay is more attractive and helps to keep staff.

Not sure 2.5% is going to do that really

monkeybutter

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well that’s what they wanted.

A pay rise.

What do you do exactly? Other than spend the day posting on here? Did you get a pay rise for that?

NIMAN

I don't get this "they got more money, I want more money" line that prevails in Irish society.

All the headlines are how this is opening up the Gov now to a raft of strikes and pay claims from the public sector.

People need to stop worrying what other people are earning. If the teachers weren't striking a month ago, they shouldn't start striking now just cos the nurses got more money.


As for the nurses themselves, I thought it was more conditions they wanted improved? Not just more money.

After all, if you are snowed under at work, short staffed, stressed etc, thats not going to change cos you are given a few extra grand each year. You'll be still as miserable in work.

Old diesel

alloywheel wrote: »

Do you have a link or were your drinking again? £18 an hour is the average that the NHS pays for agency nurses in the UK.

Of course with backhanders and corruption and brown envelopes anything is possible in the HSE, as long as the Irish taxpayer gets screwed again.


The average pay of nurses in the HSE is €58,000. The link was previously provided on a number of occasions.

He's giving an Irish HSE figure for agency nurse.

Actually its even worse then that as the figures quoted for the Irish Agency Nurse is what the Agency pays the nurse.

The agencys margin is on TOP of those figures

mjv2ydratu679c

Calm down all, these rises along with the other unsustainable public spending rises, along with the ponzi public sector pension scheme will all be filleted by the IMF the next time they are in town. The decisions they fudged the last time will have to be made the next time due to our debt pile.

road_high

Veda Orange Boot wrote: »

Calm down all, these rises along with the other unsustainable public spending rises, along with the ponzi public sector pension scheme will all be filleted by the IMF the next time they are in town. The decisions they fudged the last time will have to be made the next time due to our debt pile.

Plus there’s no room to increase taxes like the last time. So yea, cuts in expenditure it’ll be

spodoinkle

monkeybutter wrote: »

What do you do exactly? Other than spend the day posting on here? Did you get a pay rise for that?

lol of the day

Old diesel

alloywheel wrote: »

No, read the link and look back at the posts. It is accepted that the average nurses income, including allowances, if €57,000 according to the HSE themselves.

Agency nurses cost the NHS just over €18 per hour on average, which is a lot less than our pampered nurses here get.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/13/nurseshortages-cost-nhs-24-billion-last-year/

The IRISH Agency figures are NOT included in those NHS figures.

Id also like to know how that 18 pounds an hour relates to.

Because thinking about it - if that's what the Agency in UK charges per hour then it's possible the UK nurse is actually underpaid as the Agency will take a margin from that 18 per hour.

Is it possible that 18 per hour is the differential between an NHS staff nurse fully employed by NHS on standard NHS and the Agency nurse.

Kivaro

road_high wrote: »

Plus there’s no room to increase taxes like the last time. So yea, cuts in expenditure it’ll be

And also hopefully cut the billions of euros currently allocated in the coming years for brand new social housing for those who just want a forever home without the need to contribute/work.

daithi7

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I understand perfectly well.
There is no way in hell 4 nurses on 140k, and 70 nurses on 100k brought up the average for 65,000 other nurses by so much.

No you don't understand.
Run a normal distribution curve around a peak at 58,000 euros out to the outliers and you'll likely have a picture of the current distribution of nursing salaries in Ireland. (though it will now be ~60k pa of course)

In general, nurses are already overpaid, yet this government has compromised the public sector pay deal to pay them even more with ever greater increases.....

Conclusion: this minister & government do not have the stomach for the fight!!

road_high

daithi7 wrote: »

Conclusion: this minister & government do not have the stomach for the fight!!

It’s not even about nursing now. It’s the Pandora’s box it opens across the public service. Even small increases above what is already committed tto will mean massive increases in public expenditure. That’s really the elephant in the room and where the worry lies

EdgeCase

I think they'll get some kind of a pay rise, but there's no way they're going to get everything they're asking for, but then again you always ask for more than you know you'll get and we realistically can't chase the kinds of salaries paid in the US, where healthcare costs are absolutely astronomical. The total public and private spend in the US on healthcare is about $8500 per capita per year and rising, that would compare to about $5500 here and were are at the upper end of the OECD on healthcare spending.

Unless you're willing to pay a lot more PRSI and tax, there's no way that we can really chase those kinds of outlays that you see in the US or Dubai and we will continue to lose staff to those markets as they are basically unsustainable bubbles.

I'm not saying the nurses don't deserve better pay, they absolutely do but there's a sensible middle ground to be found yet.

I also fully agree with them on the fact that it would make a lot more sense to recruit nurses directly into the public sector and retain them than pay over the odds for agency staff, who ultimately don't benefit from those higher outlays by the public sector as it's disappearing into agency fees and they also have no job security. That's a waste of money and achieving nothing for the system, the staff or the patients.

We need to invest properly and sensibly to ensure that we are creating the kinds of jobs that retain nurses and doctors and that they're happy to and proud to work in. We can't chase the insane salaries of bubble economies, but we should be aiming for a healthcare system that's more like what you'd see in places like Scandinavia and Australia. We're getting bad value for money and somehow treating those working in the system (except at the very top) very badly along the way and still managing to produce patchy results for patients.

mariaalice

road_high wrote: »

It’s not even about nursing now. It’s the Pandora’s box it opens across the public service. Even small increases above what is already committed tto will mean massive increases in public expenditure. That’s really the elephant in the room and where the worry lies

Almost to the very second, it was announced they had a union rep that represents some of the rest of the HSE public services unions on the RTE news.

wrangler

mariaalice wrote: »

Almost to the very second, it was announced they had a union rep that represents some of the rest of the HSE public services unions on the RTE news.

The increase is going to be no good to them because the cost of living is going to be ramped up now by the Public (dis)service.
And we'll all still have a lousy health service

daithi7

EdgeCase wrote: »

.... that would compare to about $5500 here and were are at the upper end of the OECD on healthcare spending.

....We're getting bad value for money and somehow treating those working in the system (except at the very top) very badly along the way and still managing to produce patchy results for patients.

yes our spend per person is in the top decile on the planet , yet our outcomes are in the lowest decile in the OECD. i.e. we have the worst value for money healthcare system on the planet.

Public sector pay, pensions and (lack of) performance are the main reasons for this imho.:mad:

road_high

wrangler wrote: »

The increase is going to be no good to them because the cost of living is going to be ramped up now by the Public (dis)service.
And we'll all still have a lousy health service

They’ll slap an increase on hospital charges which will feed through in health insurance.

marvin80

EdgeCase wrote: »

We need to invest properly and sensibly to ensure that we are creating the kinds of jobs that retain nurses and doctors and that they're happy to and proud to work in. We can't chase the insane salaries of bubble economies, but we should be aiming for a healthcare system that's more like what you'd see in places like Scandinavia and Australia. We're getting bad value for money and somehow treating those working in the system (except at the very top) very badly along the way and still managing to produce patchy results for patients.

The big issue here is the outrageous money being spent on the Health sector overall due to inefficiencies in the Admin and management side of things.

Extra hundreds of millions is thrown at the Health Service for the last few years via the Budget and it disappears, in fact the health service has gotten worse - this can't continue to happen.

If this side of things was corrected (an impossible job I'd say) then there would be no issue giving nurses decent salaries and retaining them after they qualify.

The unions have a lot to answer for in this regard. It's great to have unions standing up for workers rights but there taking the pi*s with their constant money grabbing at every opportunity - the nurses strike is a good example and it's going to filter across the public service:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/nurses-deal-opens-door-to-public-pay-freeforall-37807153.html

I've mentioned it already but debt-wise Ireland is not in a great state. The last few years Ireland has had a budget surplus but instead of clearing off some of the debt or investing heavily in capital projects, the budgets have thrown money at people in the hope of getting votes in the next election.

It's a bit like having your mortgage in arrears and you come into a bit of money, instead of putting some of it towards the mortgage you go off on a fancy holiday - crazy stuff.

Rant over!

EdgeCase

daithi7 wrote: »

yes our spend per person is in the top decile on the planet , yet our outcomes are in the lowest decile in the OECD. i.e. we have the worst value for money healthcare system on the planet.

Public sector pay, pensions and (lack of) performance are the main reasons for this imho.:mad:

Not in the OECD, possibly in the EU on spend anyway.

The US is literally on another level when it comes to bad value for money. Almost 2X the spend again, including huge public outlay and it can't even achieve universal coverage.

What worries me is that we have had a tendency to follow the some kind of messy hybrid of bits of the NHS and bits of the US model, which tends to result in public money being absorbed into bottomless pits.

The most stark statistic from the Irish system was that even though there's in theory a solid public health system almost 50% of the population hold voluntary insurance. Plenty of other EU countries have the option of secondary insurance, but you might see 10-15% uptake. The fact that it's so high here was interpreted as a total lack of confidence in the public system, which would seem accurate to me.

It's crazy though when you consider that basically no Irish political party has a policy that should lead to the system that we currently have. Even Fine Gael had a notion of pushing towards a continental style universal insurance model, but we have basically achieved almost no progress on that at all.

There's very little public support or political support for the status quo, it's just nobody seems to have the mandate to really get in deep and change it.

I really think we need to do something like have a Citizens Assembly on health reform followed by giving serious mandate for hard changes. Even if that were to include a referendum on moving us to a single tier model and doing whatever compulsory purchases or changes of ownership necessary to achieve that.
It's a national crisis and it's chewed up minister after minister and government after government.

I don't see this mess ever being resolved in tit-for-tat politics. It's one of the most obvious cases for use of deliberative democracy processes - Citizens Assembly and all-party structure for really taking this on and forcing change.

It's not going to be resolved by tweaking the edges of rearranging the deckchairs.
The whole system needs radical reform much like when the NHS was established in the UK after WWII.

It would be controversial and it would require facing own a lot of often well-meaning vested interests too.

Geuze

marvin80 wrote: »

I've mentioned it already but debt-wise Ireland is not in a great state. The last few years Ireland has had a budget surplus but instead of clearing off some of the debt or investing heavily in capital projects, the budgets have thrown money at people in the hope of getting votes in the next election.

2018 saw a small fiscal surplus, none before that.

road_high

Geuze wrote: »

2018 saw a small fiscal surplus, none before that.

And that still with USC and higher rates of taxation in place.

marvin80

Geuze wrote: »

2018 saw a small fiscal surplus, none before that.

That makes it worse!

I know personally I benefited in a small way due to tax cuts but felt it was an outrageous thing to do.
Not enough planning for the rainy day just very short-sighted but I suppose that's the system.

tayto lover

I don’t believe the nurses will accept this deal. It doesn’t look good enough to me. It won’t encourage our emigrated nurses to return.
They should look for better.

EdgeCase

Geuze wrote: »

2018 saw a small fiscal surplus, none before that.

The issue that the Government is justifiably terrified of is spending out to the limits of the budget and then hitting a Brexit or Trump induced recession and being unable to climb back down to lower spending again.

They are at least starting to get the idea that when you've got it you spend it on capital not current expenditure.

road_high

marvin80 wrote: »

That makes it worse!

I know personally I benefited in a small way due to tax cuts but felt it was an outrageous thing to do.
Not enough planning for the rainy day just very short-sighted but I suppose that's the system.

Taxes are already far too high. Well past the point of diminishing returns. It’s in the public expenditure side that the major issue is and not being tackled

daithi7

daithi7 wrote: »

And so, can you actually address the issues I highlighted?

Are you telling me this does not go on?? Cos SmartA I've heard it from the horse's mouth... i.e. poor working practices, high sick leave and entitled attitudes impact on effective surgery time, other professionals in the room and the overall efficiency of the system....

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/nurses-absenteeism-blamed-for-ward-closure-43676.html

hawkelady

The document will have to be studied very carefully. Word going around is certain grades will have to sign new contracts and the new contract will have you on the pension plan after 2004 ... a pre 2004 pension plan is worth a fair bit tbh. Might be rejected yet !

daithi7

https://www.cuecomponents.com/newgolo.html

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

......It won’t encourage our emigrated nurses to return...........

That can't be the aim
Not feasible.
Loads of us can earn more abroad, I'm not tempted as I like living here etc etc etc.

mariaalice

hawkelady wrote: »

The document will have to be studied very carefully. Word going around is certain grades will have to sign new contracts and the new contract will have you on the pension plan after 2004 ... a pre 2004 pension plan is worth a fair bit tbh. Might be rejected yet !

Maybe, but I would say its more to push forward an agenda nurses doing more identifiable technical based tasks while HCA will be given more advanced roles and the HCA will definitely be doing more of the caring bit of nursing the thing is unless this is firmly tied down in a contract identifying exactly what tasks are to do be done by what graded it tends to drift.

In the Irish system it was possible to avoid the more technical aspects of nursing and still get paid the same no matter.


In the future it will be about more personal and professional responsibility will equal more money less personal and professional responsibility will equal less money.

The big issue is because we have such a sue everyone culture who was/is responsible legally will be a big issue.

Varta

daithi7 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/nurses-absenteeism-blamed-for-ward-closure-43676.html

The article you referenced is from 2007 and has nothing whatsoever to do with your ridiculous claim that surgeons have to stop a surgery because nurses walk out of the theatre. I doubt you read the entire article or you wouldn't have referenced it, because it contains this delicious quote from one of your own who disputed that absenteeism was an issue:
"Kieran O’Donnell TD of Fine Gael claimed the drop in nurses on duty is a result of the executive’s embargo on filling jobs."
LOL

daithi7

road_high wrote: »

Taxes are already far too high. Well past the point of diminishing returns. It’s in the public expenditure side that the major issue is and not being tackled

Public spending is now totally out of control imho. This government have removed the office of Minister for Public expenditure, allowed the budget for the NCH to treble, overspent the one off corporate tax windfall last year on annual budgets and now compromising their own public sector pay deal by caving to the nurse's demands. It's time for a new government imho.

hawkelady

mariaalice wrote: »

Maybe, but I would say its more to push forward an agenda nurses doing more identifiable technical based tasks while HCA will be given more advanced roles and the HCA will definitely be doing more of the caring bit of nursing the thing is unless this is firmly tied down in a contract identifying exactly what tasks are to do be done by what graded it tends to drift.

In the Irish system it was possible to avoid the more technical aspects of nursing and still get paid the same no matter.


In the future it will be about more personal and professional responsibility will equal more money less personal and professional responsibility will equal less money.

The big issue is because we have such a sue everyone culture who was/is responsible legally will be a big issue.

Agree. You have to take into consideration that nurses ultimately have responsibility for a hca.

daithi7

Varta wrote: »

The article you referenced is from 2007 and has nothing whatsoever to do with your ridiculous claim that surgeons have to stop a surgery because nurses walk out of the theatre. I doubt you read the entire article or you wouldn't have referenced it, because it contains this delicious quote from one of your own who disputed that absenteeism was an issue:
"Kieran O’Donnell TD of Fine Gael claimed the drop in nurses on duty is a result of the executive’s embargo on filling jobs."
LOL

Nope I read it, but one opinion does not a fact make!!

(especially when all the facts of the above case indicate other reasons, i.e. nurses absenteeism and lack of flexibility in working practices )

p.s. I made a claim that a surgeon had to stop surgery due to nurses insisting on changing shift during an operation. I know it occured, and assumedly occurs to this day, cos despite all the performance related pay increases and increments, my bet is that opting for this is still at the nurse's discretion.

mariaalice

hawkelady wrote: »

Agree. You have to take into consideration that nurses ultimately have responsibility for a hca.

Who is exactly legally responsible is what knocks back changes in the HSE the public services and Irish society in general.

Varta

daithi7 wrote: »

Nope I read it, but one opinion does not a fact make!!

(especially when all the facts of the above case indicate other reasons, i.e. nurses absenteeism and lack of flexibility in working practices )

p.s. I made a claim that a surgeon had to stop surgery due to nurses insisting on changing shift during an operation. I know it occured, and assumedly occurs to this day, cos despite all the performance related pay increases and increments, my bet is that opting for this is still at the nurse's discretion.

And I told you that your claim was utter nonsense. It has never happened, except in your head.

Varta

daithi7 wrote: »

Nope I read it, but one opinion does not a fact make!!

(especially when all the facts of the above case indicate other reasons, i.e. nurses absenteeism and lack of flexibility in working practices )

p.s. I made a claim that a surgeon had to stop surgery due to nurses insisting on changing shift during an operation. I know it occured, and assumedly occurs to this day, cos despite all the performance related pay increases and increments, my bet is that opting for this is still at the nurse's discretion.

If only you could apply that to yourself.

facehugger99

daithi7 wrote: »

Public spending is now totally out of control imho. This government have removed the office of Minister for Public expenditure, allowed the budget for the NCH to treble, overspent the one off corporate tax windfall last year on annual budgets and now compromising their own public sector pay deal by caving to the nurse's demands. It's time for a new government imho.

Who?

There is no fiscally conservative party prepared to take politically unpopular decisions to secure our future prosperity.

The only viable alternative to FG is FF which created a Public Service monster and HSE in the first place.

The likes of SF and Labour would be even worse again.

If you're a private sector worker, your choice basically comes down to how badly you end up getting shafted. That will stay the case as long as the PS unions are negotiating with a PS Government and being impartially :rolleyes: reported on by the PS national broadcaster.

daithi7

Varta wrote: »

And I told you that your claim was utter nonsense. It has never happened, except in your head.

it happened according to a very frustrated top surgeon and lifelong friend of mine, so thanks for your repeated negative assertions about this incident, it did occur, and your repeated bone headed assertion that it did not (except in my head) is both ignorant and inaccurate. Typical of you!!

p.s. see ya varta, wouldn't want to be ya!!!

hawkelady

daithi7 wrote: »

it happened according to a very frustrated top surgeon and lifelong friend of mine, so thanks for your repeated negative assertions about this incident, it did occur, and your repeated bone headed assertion that it did not (except in my head) is both ignorant and inaccurate. Typical of you!!

p.s. goodbye varta!!!

It did not occur the way you say. It just didn’t.

mariaalice

facehugger99 wrote: »

Who?

There is no fiscally conservative party prepared to take politically unpopular decisions to secure our future prosperity.

The only viable alternative to FG is FF which created a Public Service monster and HSE in the first place.

The likes of SF and Labour would be even worse again.

If you're a private sector worker, your choice basically comes down to how badly you end up getting shafted. That will stay the case as long as the PS unions are negotiating with a PS Government and being impartially :rolleyes: reported on by the PS national bro dcaster.

That is not true, it depends on what private sector you are in lots of padding/ or extras in private sector employment and not just in IT one person I have in mind top health insurance paid for, generous holidays, bonuses it is in the financial sector there are no unions involved.

daithi7

hawkelady wrote: »

It did not occur the way you say. It just didn’t.

htf do you know!?
like were you there!?!

wrangler

daithi7 wrote: »

Nope I read it, but one opinion does not a fact make!!

(especially when all the facts of the above case indicate other reasons, i.e. nurses absenteeism and lack of flexibility in working practices )

p.s. I made a claim that a surgeon had to stop surgery due to nurses insisting on changing shift during an operation. I know it occured, and assumedly occurs to this day, cos despite all the performance related pay increases and increments, my bet is that opting for this is still at the nurse's discretion.

There was a case on the sunday Indo where a surgeon left an operation for two hours......like WTF

Varta

daithi7 wrote: »

htf do you know!?
like were you there!?!

It did not happen. And you don't have a surgeon friend. At least not one that is visible to everyone else.

tretorn

How do the shifts work, do you have the same numbers at night as you do on the day shift.

Would having three shifts of eight hours be better than the twelve hour shifts which means nurses only have to be available for work three days a week. If nurses worked 8 Am to 4 pm, 4PM to Midnight and Midnight to 8 AM five days a week would this make the system more efficient. That would mean experienced nurses would be on site five days in a row rather than doing a Monday and Tuesday for example and then being off till Friday. Nurses probably wouldnt be interested in working like this though because then they have to be at work five days in a row.

We definitely need more HCAs, as far as I could see when my relative was in hospital for two months it is these workers who are doing the caring, the nurses spent most of their day at the top of the ward looking at computers and to be honest most of the younger nurses anyway dont want to do the hard physical graft. They see themselves as some sort of supernumary nurse and really the HSE doesnt need more nurses like this and they dont need to be training them to go abroad either which is what is happening now and the payrise they have got wont change that.

The Government should recruit a lot more Hcas and pay them a bit better and reduce the number of nurses on the wards, the modern day nurses seem to spend their days moaning about how hard their lot is. If the nurses were trained within the hospital system and not in universities they would find out pretty quickly what nursing actually involves and then they wouldnt be running out as fast as they can to Dubai to prop up the health service the wealthy can access in that awful country. To think that the Irish taxpayer is funding the nurses training so they can earn very big salaries using that training in Dubai.

Fiftyfilthy

So it was all about money?

I was reading all these stories in the media about nurses falling asleep at the end of a long day in their cars etc

How will 2k fix this?

I thought the strike was about work conditions and environment?