Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Fann Linn

road_high wrote: »

For capital projects in recent years there are very tight controls on cost over runs. They basically don't happen anymore once a project is underway. They tightened all that up about 15 years ago.

Childrens hospital.plus €800,000,000

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

But there is some truth in all this kamikaze talk. We do put up with over runs in costs, be they for hospitals, motorways, tunnels, national aquatic centres and a myriad of other state prpjects.

When politicians are asked or held accountable they bat these over runs aside with farcical answers and reasons.

Why should people then believe them when payclaims are rejected just because the same politicians say 'we can't afford it'?

More illiterate garbage.

Yes, there is projects that over-run. But equally, there is other projects that come under budget, somewhat offsetting the over-runs. Not ideal I know, but projects are a one off and provide an economic return.

Increasing salaries by 300m is 300m that must be found everyyear.

branie2

I hope so

Fann Linn

salonfire wrote: »

More illiterate garbage.

Yes, there is projects that over-run. But equally, there is other projects that come under budget, somewhat offsetting the over-runs. Not ideal I know, but projects are a one off and provide an economic return.

Increasing salaries by 300m is 300m that must be found everyyear.

And we heard that 2 years ago and they could find €80,000,000 in the back pocket for the Gardai payrise. Which must be found every year.

Let them pay the nurses now.

road_high

salonfire wrote: »

Yep. Very disheartening to see nothing has been learned form the harsh lessons we were dealt just a few years ago.

The country just about broke even last year. And that was on the back of large windfalls from Corporation Tax that no one was expecting or knows where the hell it all come from.

And now people are clamouring to increase spending on salaries (which is permanent) based on another boom.

I despair reading this stuff. Yes, I’d have to conclude we learned nothing and sadly there is a cohort out for all they can milk from the state, regardless of the consequences to anyone else or their own long term viability’s. They admit as much here.
If they finally bankrupt the state which they all seem determined to do then it’s back to the same cuts as 2009, possibly even worse next time around.
The scary thing for me is that personal taxes are still now at sub-penal rates- they weren’t in 2007/8 as we hit the last recession and yet now we are still barely threading water. That says to me we are still living a fair bit beyond our means and instead of anyone crying stop, we are accelerating towards another cliff.
There’s nothing much left to give next time.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

Childrens hospital.plus €800,000,000

Maybe with the budget overrun, extra features and equipment not originally included in the estimate has been requested by the HSE?

im6foot4

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Nurses could demand 150 k per annum and most would support them, we adore nurses in Ireland

Why wouldn't anyone adore nurses?

road_high

Fann Linn wrote: »

Childrens hospital.plus €800,000,000

That’s the initial cost- not the same as the project itself over running.

Fann Linn

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe with the budget overrun, extra features and equipment not originally included in the estimate has been requested by the HSE?

Dress it up any way you like.

Wheeliebin30

salonfire wrote: »

Yep. Very disheartening to see nothing has been learned form the harsh lessons we were dealt just a few years ago.

The country just about broke even last year. And that was on the back of large windfalls from Corporation Tax that no one was expecting or knows where the hell it all come from.

And now people are clamouring to increase spending on salaries (which is permanent) based on another boom.

That’s why the big boys are in power and the kids aren’t.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

And we heard that 2 years ago and they could find €80,000,000 in the back pocket for the Gardai payrise. Which must be found every year.

Let them pay the nurses now.

Exactly. That set the precedent and should not have happened. The Government should have stood firm against the Gardai.

Now the floodgates are opened, it will be a smash and grab by various public sector unions. Another 200m needs to be found for the teachers.

You'd swear people really do believe their is a money tree somewhere ready for harvest.

I could understand the pay claims somewhat if the country's coffers were bursting at the seams but that is far from the reality.

Fann Linn

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

That’s why the big boys are in power and the kids aren’t.

I hope ye don't mean FG because Hildegard didn't sound too convincing last night.

Wheeliebin30

salonfire wrote: »

Exactly. That set the precedent and should not have happened. The Government should have stood firm against the Gardai.

Now the floodgates are opened, it will be a smash and grab by various public sector unions. Another 200m needs to be found for the teachers.

You'd swear people really do believe their is a money tree somewhere ready for harvest.

I could understand the pay claims somewhat if the country's coffers were bursting at the seams but that is far from the reality.

They should teach kids in school about the recession that crippled this country in 2008.

All seems to be forgotten.

Fann Linn

salonfire wrote: »

Exactly. That set the precedent and should not have happened. The Government should have stood firm against the Gardai.

Now the floodgates are opened, it will be a smash and grab by various public sector unions. Another 200m needs to be found for the teachers.

You'd swear people really do believe their is a money tree somewhere ready for harvest.

I could understand the pay claims somewhat if the country's coffers were bursting at the seams but that is far from the reality.

That's the point I've been making. The govt set the precedent and then expect others to believe them.

Wheeliebin30

Fann Linn wrote: »

I hope ye don't mean FG because Hildegard didn't sound too convincing last night.

No just people who can make sensible decisions.

Who do you think should be in power?

road_high

salonfire wrote: »

Exactly. That set the precedent and should not have happened. The Government should have stood firm against the Gardai.

Now the floodgates are opened, it will be a smash and grab by various public sector unions. Another 200m needs to be found for the teachers.

You'd swear people really do believe their is a money tree somewhere ready for harvest.

I could understand the pay claims somewhat if the country's coffers were bursting at the seams but that is far from the reality.

As you say I’m stunned reading the comments here. Like a small state just finds another 300 million euros here or there!!
It’s a pity the IMF ever left, i’d have gladly let them run the nations finances as a responsible bank would. They'll be back soon enough anyhow if this carry on goes on much longer.

alexmalalex

Like it or not, history seems to be repeating itself. Prices are rising and the country is going to lose competitiveness.

I don't know how much nurses are paid, but they deserve more, given the increasing complexity of the job they perform, and the fact that they work extremely hard.

road_high

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

They should teach kids in school about the recession that crippled this country in 2008.

All seems to be forgotten.

The adults that supposedly went through it as well. It really was a hell time. I lost my job like thousands of others, I really don’t want to go through all that again.
I want the country’s finances properly and responsibly managed. It appears I’m asking too much to expect that

gctest50

salonfire wrote: »

..............

I could understand the pay claims somewhat if the country's coffers were bursting at the seams but that is far from the reality.

There are people who just want the place back in the misery of the recession

Varta

road_high wrote: »

Why is our nurse to population ratio the third highest in Europe? Where are all these nurses?

When they take a promotion they become management but are still classified as nurses. It's called massaging the figures.

road_high

alexmalalex wrote: »

Like it or not, history seems to be repeating itself. Prices are rising and the country is going to lose competitiveness.

I don't know how much nurses are paid, but they deserve more, given the increasing complexity of the job they perform, and the fact that they work extremely hard.

You made two statements here, both very much at odds with each other.
You’re spot on with point 1 which will happen if we rollover to point 2.

road_high

Varta wrote: »

When they take a promotion they become management but are still classified as nurses. It's called massaging the figures.

Ah right so they’re doing nothing useful as managers then?

Varta

road_high wrote: »

I’ve worked in companies where there was no overtime- you were on a salary and that was that. Many times had to work overtime during busy periods. Such is life in real world.

So have I. Salaried jobs are paid accordingly.

road_high

gctest50 wrote: »

There are people who just want the place back in the misery of the recession

They’ll have their wish with this carry on and fast

alexmalalex

Why not introduce performance-based pay for nurses?

I was in A&E a few months ago with a relative. It really is fascinating to see the change-over of staff - nurses at 8pm and doctors at 10pm. I remember this one nurse, when he came on duty, was so efficient. The zone he was managing was messy - curtains askew, machines here and there, etc - he very quickly tidied the area, prioritized, and got things done proactively and quickly. Other nurses were sloppy, inefficient, and while hard working did not optimise time or resources

So while I think there are natural limits to measuring and incentivizing performance, perhaps the solution is to give nurses a pay rise if they deliver on objectives.

P.S. The nurse in question was Asian, and clearly had been very well trained. I believe international experience is a must for nurses, as it is for doctors.

Varta

I have no skin in the game, but this is a legacy issue. For many years we had a hospital system staffed by nurses who were under the cosh of nuns. They were expected to be angels who should be happy to work for meals and a bed. If the government were honest they would acknowledge this and bring the nurses salary up to the point it should be at, i.e. roughly in line with teachers. then we could apply the public service agreements across the board. But until it is recognised that this is a legacy issue and dealt with accordingly it will never go away.

Varta

road_high wrote: »

Ah right so they’re doing nothing useful as managers then?

Whatever, but stop classifying them as nurses to massage the figures.

Dia1988

Those nurses do **** all anyway only sit down at nurses station and bitch how everything is so unfair for them and they're over worked, despite they sitting down for half their shift!

No. don't give them a pay rise!

They're not as qualified as Doctors, Primary Teachers , Engineers and/or architects.

Varta

alexmalalex wrote: »

Why not introduce performance-based pay for nurses?

I was in A&E a few months ago with a relative. It really is fascinating to see the change-over of staff - nurses at 8pm and doctors at 10pm. I remember this one nurse, when he came on duty, was so efficient. The zone he was managing was messy - curtains askew, machines here and there, etc - he very quickly tidied the area, prioritized, and got things done proactively and quickly. Other nurses were sloppy, inefficient, and while hard working did not optimise time or resources

So while I think there are natural limits to measuring and incentivizing performance, perhaps the solution is to give nurses a pay rise if they deliver on objectives.

P.S. The nurse in question was Asian, and clearly had been very well trained. I believe international experience is a must for nurses, as it is for doctors.

If you came to a desk at the end of another workers shift the first thing you would do is tidy it. And by the time you got to the end of your shift it would need tidying by the next worker. I won't even entertain your racist remark.

road_high

Varta wrote: »

Whatever, but stop classifying them as nurses to massage the figures.

Get them back on the wards then. They’re a cost regardless

Varta

road_high wrote: »

Get them back on the wards then. They’re a cost regardless

So no management. Or are you going to tell us that you have a wonderful plan to deliver management at no cost.

Varta

Dia1988 wrote: »

Those nurses do **** all anyway only sit down at nurses station and bitch how everything is so unfair for them and they're over worked, despite they sitting down for half their shift!

No. don't give them a pay rise!

They're not as qualified as Doctors, Primary Teachers , Engineers and/or architects.

To have included Primary Teachers in that list you are obviously one yourself.

thomasdylan

Dia1988 wrote: »

Those nurses do **** all anyway only sit down at nurses station and bitch how everything is so unfair for them and they're over worked, despite they sitting down for half their shift!

No. don't give them a pay rise!

They're not as qualified as Doctors, Primary Teachers , Engineers and/or architects.

What makes those qualifications better than nursing? All those courses are the same length apart from medicine and nursing is a more globally in-demand.

alexmalalex

Varta wrote: »

If you came to a desk at the end of another workers shift the first thing you would do is tidy it. And by the time you got to the end of your shift it would need tidying by the next worker. I won't even entertain your racist remark.

First of all, I pointed out the ethnicity of the nurse - how is that racist?

Second, the nurse in question kept the whole zone tidy all night.

Varta

thomasdylan wrote: »

What makes those qualifications better than nursing? All those courses are the same length apart from medicine and nursing is a more globally in-demand.

There were a lot of Architects pulling pints the past ten years.

Dia1988

Varta wrote: »

To have included Primary Teachers in that list you are obviously one yourself.

Ah you're just saying that because I distinguished what type of Teacher. You'd say similar if I distinguished what type of engineer, Civil Engineer!

Varta

alexmalalex wrote: »

First of all, I posited out the ethnicity of the nurse - how is that racist?

Second, the nurse in question kept the whole zone tidy all night.

By any standards, it was racist.

square ball

Nurses striking is a last resort as their employers will not sit down with them to renegotiate pay.

Of all public sector employees they probably have more cause to strike than anyone else. At the top point of the scale teachers are paid between 10-12k than nurses in Ireland.

The girlfriend is qualified over 5 years and getting paid €35k before tax having done a post grad and is responsible for giving out chemo to her patients. A teacher after 5 years is on over €41k. 35k before tax is very low for the stress, extra hours and responsibility.

Obviously not all nurses are good at their job like in every occupation and workplace but the vast majority are genuinely hard working, caring people and put patients needs before themselves. They could be getting abuse from a patient one minute, be in with a patient being told they won't be getting anymore treatment the next and back out treating patients soon after. It is an emotionally demanding environment that does take a lot out of you.

Was into A&E with a family member recently and the nurses had to manoeuvre the trolleys around to get machines up along the corridors to do tests as it was so busy. They were crazy crazy busy but still treated my family member like they were her first patient of the night. I am not sure how many people could work like that for an extended period.

I think nurses should be paid in line with teachers.

MaryBrosnan

Dia1988 wrote: »

Those nurses do **** all anyway only sit down at nurses station and bitch how everything is so unfair for them and they're over worked, despite they sitting down for half their shift!

No. don't give them a pay rise!

They're not as qualified as Doctors, Primary Teachers , Engineers and/or architects.

Leave it out, rubbish post. Nurses are the back bone of medical care. Wont you be damn glad of them if you ever need them.

Fann Linn

Varta wrote: »

There were a lot of Architects pulling pints the past ten years.

Marian Finucane is an architect.
'Nuff said.

road_high

Varta wrote: »

So no management. Or are you going to tell us that you have a wonderful plan to deliver management at no cost.

They could always do both. You know it’s quite common elsewhere that you’d be expected to do some “donkey work” as well as take on management duties.
Radical I know

alexmalalex

Varta wrote: »

By any standards, it was racist.

So, stating the ethnicity of someone is now racist?

Catch yourself on and stop spouting such nonsense.

Varta

Dia1988 wrote: »

Ah you're just saying that because I distinguished what type of Teacher. You'd say similar if I distinguished what type of engineer, Civil Engineer!

Nope. A good degree in Engineering or Architecture takes a sharp mind and a lot of hard work. I have a lot of respect for teachers, but let's be honest, the bar isn't quite so high.

Varta

Fann Linn wrote: »

Marian Finucane is an architect.
'Nuff said.

And she should be pulling pints ;-)

Twenty Grand

Dia1988 wrote: »

Those nurses do **** all anyway only sit down at nurses station and bitch how everything is so unfair for them and they're over worked, despite they sitting down for half their shift!

No. don't give them a pay rise!

They're not as qualified as Doctors, Primary Teachers , Engineers and/or architects.

Hah, says yer one with the degree in Irish and religion, the most useless subjects you could possibly study.

Get on yer bike!

Varta

road_high wrote: »

They could always do both. You know it’s quite common elsewhere that you’d be expected to do some “donkey work” as well as take on management duties.
Radical I know

Not radical, impossible. Get off your ideological high horse and be realistic. it's a legacy issue. we should deal with it and move on.

thomasdylan

road_high wrote: »

I’ve worked in companies where there was no overtime- you were on a salary and that was that. Many times had to work overtime during busy periods. Such is life in real world.

You do realise that the HSE still has people working 24+ hour shifts and 90-100 hour weeks? Should they be salaried to save money? Nurses are paid overtime for taking extra 13 hour shifts, not for staying late an hour or two (which happens and they don't get paid for).

Varta

alexmalalex wrote: »

So, stating the ethnicity of someone is now racist?

Catch yourself on and stop spouting such nonsense.

You clearly implied that the nurse was a better nurse because he was Asian.

Varta

Varta wrote: »

You clearly implied that the nurse was a better nurse because he was Asian.

Why mention his ethnicity?

road_high

Varta wrote: »

There were a lot of Architects pulling pints the past ten years.

Which should have nurses even more grateful they are in a recession proof career and didn’t lose their jobs like so many of us did. But you only gain that kind of gratitude and perspective having being through hard times