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Consultation Survey on Irish Lang. exemptions

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    #2
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    Reckon it should be optional for LC, myself.

    Also need to revise the JC to be far more conversational based as German/French/Spanish are, because Irish is the very same as a foreign language to most students.


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    #3
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Noveight wrote: »
    Reckon it should be optional for LC, myself.
    If you want to kill the language off, absolutely.


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    #4
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    RealJohn wrote: »
    If you want to kill the language off, absolutely.

    The purpose of the Leaving Cert isn't to be a lifeline for the Irish language.


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    #5
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,222 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    This thread is about exemptions.

    Personally, I say offer them a tenner for every word in Irish they know...watch the miracles happen.


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    #6
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    RealJohn wrote: »
    If you want to kill the language off, absolutely.

    People are very keen to have new gaelscoils and that's optional! I reckon yould kill the language off quicker if you made all schools Irish speaking.


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    #7
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    People are very keen to have new gaelscoils and that's optional! I reckon yould kill the language off quicker if you made all schools Irish speaking.
    People are keen on Gaelscoileanna at the moment for a number of reasons, and most of them have nothing to do with the language. If leaving cert Irish was optional, there’d be a significant drop off in demand, even at primary.


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    #8
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    RealJohn wrote: »
    People are keen on Gaelscoileanna at the moment for a number of reasons, and most of them have nothing to do with the language. If leaving cert Irish was optional, there’d be a significant drop off in demand, even at primary.

    I wouldn't be so sure realjohn. It's a big leap to put your kids into a school witb a different language just to gain some extra marks in the LC Irish exam. Not merely put them in there.... but actively campaign for primary and secondary schools to be built!


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    #9
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Noveight wrote: »
    The purpose of the Leaving Cert isn't to be a lifeline for the Irish language.
    Nobody said that it is, but I see no reason that it should be made optional either, unless you’re going to make every subject optional.
    Making it optional would still kill the language and, on topic, allowing students to be exempted from Irish but not from whatever European language they’re studying also damages the language and should be forbidden.
    If a student is going to get a language exemption, it should start with foreign languages and end with Irish, not the other way around, unless the student is foreign and the foreign language is their native language.


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    #10
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so sure realjohn. It's a big leap to put your kids into a school witb a different language just to gain some extra marks in the LC Irish exam. Not merely put them in there.... but actively campaign for primary and secondary schools to be built!
    I said that there are a number of reasons, but I do believe that knowing it gives the student an advantage in leaving cert Irish is one of the stronger ones.


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    #11
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    RealJohn wrote: »
    If you want to kill the language off, absolutely.

    See I think this is noncense. Why have LC Irish classes where in most cases at least 50% of students dont want to be doing the subject. Remember students will have done nearly 10 years of Irish up to JC level. They should at that time be allowed the option of keeping it up, or dropping it.


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    #12
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Nobody said that it is, but I see no reason that it should be made optional either, unless you’re going to make every subject optional.

    Maths and English should remain compulsory as the measures of literacy and numeracy.

    Everything else should be optional.

    Apologies Spurious, I’ll park the optional/compulsory stuff there.


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    #13
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Noveight wrote: »
    Maths and English should remain compulsory as the measures of literacy and numeracy.

    Everything else should be optional.

    Apologies Spurious, I’ll park the optional/compulsory stuff there.
    The purposes of leaving cert maths and English are not to promote numeracy and literacy, but even if they were, why wouldn’t the country’s official language be used to promote literacy rather than a foreign language?
    Also, making Irish the go to language for exemptions makes even less sense from a literacy point of view.


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    #14
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    See I think this is noncense. Why have LC Irish classes where in most cases at least 50% of students dont want to be doing the subject. Remember students will have done nearly 10 years of Irish up to JC level. They should at that time be allowed the option of keeping it up, or dropping it.
    But what’s nonsensical here is that nobody seems to care that students are routinely reaching their leaving cert cycle, having supposedly studied Irish for eleven to twelve years. That’s the reason they don’t want to be there - they’re no good at the subject. You say that 50% of the students don’t want to be there. Do you think that that’s 50% evenly spread across the board, or would you say that the percentage is far, far lower in among students who went to a Gaelscoil? And of those who did go to a Gaelscoil, and still don’t want to do leaving cert Irish, do you think their reasons are the same as those who didn’t go to Gaelscoileanna?

    I’ve always found it odd that students with dyslexia, for example, don’t generally need to be exempted from languages in Gaelscoileanna. It’s almost as if that language isn’t actually the issue.


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    #15
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,222 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    RealJohn wrote: »

    I’ve always found it odd that students with dyslexia, for example, don’t generally need to be exempted from languages in Gaelscoileanna. It’s almost as if that language isn’t actually the issue.

    Or the quite common 'needs an exemption for Irish but OK at French/Spanish etc.'.


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    #16
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Seems really strange that they are pushing the Gaeltacht Schools Recognition Scheme and this at the same time. Counterproductive.


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    #17
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    spurious wrote: »
    Or the quite common 'needs an exemption for Irish but OK at French/Spanish etc.'.

    A common occurrence where I am.

    Students getting 65-70% in Spanish but exempt from Irish.


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    #18
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    It's one of the last applications where the dept acted as the gatekeeper. Now they're pushing the decision back onto the school (usually learning support coordinator).
    c) Irish in special schools and in special classes in mainstream schools
    The draft revised circulars recognise the authority devolved to the authorities of special schools and mainstream schools where there are special classes in decision making concerning pupils'/students' Irish language learning needs.

    (i) Pupils/students in special schools or classes should not have to apply for an official exemption from the study of Irish.

    Who's going to say No to that statement.
    This is all a done deal folks.

    In much the same vein as teacher correcting their own students; I wonder will we see an increase in the granting as the schools become the gatekeepers.
    There is a 'strong feeling' amongst some that if you can afford a private ed psych you'll get the exemption.

    This is what I meant by 'floodgates' in the op. After a few years with so many exemptions maybe the pressure to have as many Irish teachers might ease!

    Is Irish typically timetabled at the same time amongst year group classes in schools? I'm thinking if you have half a group of 6th years with exemptions you're going to have to put them somewhere.... and learning something from a teacher... but not Irish.


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    #19
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭doc_17


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    It's one of the last applications where the dept acted as the gatekeeper. Now they're pushing the decision back onto the school (usually learning support coordinator).


    Who's going to say No to that statement.
    This is all a done deal folks.

    In much the same vein as teacher correcting their own students; I wonder will we see an increase in the granting as the schools become the gatekeepers.
    There is a 'strong feeling' amongst some that if you can afford a private ed psych you'll get the exemption.

    This is what I meant by 'floodgates' in the op. After a few years with so many exemptions maybe the pressure to have as many Irish teachers might ease!

    Is Irish typically timetabled at the same time amongst year group classes in schools? I'm thinking if you have half a group of 6th years with exemptions you're going to have to put them somewhere.... and learning something from a teacher... but not Irish.

    Same as RE maybe?


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    #20
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    doc_17 wrote: »
    Same as RE maybe?

    Yes kind of. But in the case of RE you didn't need an ed psych / assessment, whereas with schools there will still be a bit of a barrier with testing. So it won't be quite so easy to drop the subject.

    with RE I thought the dept retracted the requirement that schools had to provide another class.


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    #21
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭doc_17


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Yes kind of. But in the case of RE you didn't need an ed psych / assessment, whereas with schools there will still be a bit of a barrier with testing. So it won't be quite so easy to drop the subject.

    with RE I thought the dept retracted the requirement that schools had to provide another class.

    In any keep up!


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