What is the point of producing your licence in 10 days?

Tacitus Kilgore

Why do I even need a licence? I don't drive, I travel.

irelandrover

One of the big issues with the Gardai checking an online system linked to the NVDF would be foreign licenses. Far easier to just make it a law that everyone has to carry a license.

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

name and date of birth should suffice for most people. There is nothing magical or particularly difficult (from a technical perspective) about this. The real issue at the moment is that they have only been storing photos digitally since the plastic cards were introduced so anybody still on the old licence would not have a photo available as a digital file. Once all the old licences have expired this problem goes away.

A system like that MUST SUFFICE for everyone

Captain Obvious

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

name and date of birth should suffice for most people. There is nothing magical or particularly difficult (from a technical perspective) about this. The real issue at the moment is that they have only been storing photos digitally since the plastic cards were introduced so anybody still on the old licence would not have a photo available as a digital file. Once all the old licences have expired this problem goes away.

Name and date of birth would not be sufficient. These are not unique

grogi

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Name and date of birth would not be sufficient. These are not unique

They are
a) easy to remember and easy to pass to the officer
b) provide enough uniqueness to allow identification.

PPS is unique - but nobody would remember that.

Tacitus Kilgore

grogi wrote: »

PPS is unique - but nobody would remember that.

You've obviously never been on the scratcher then :pac:

Captain Obvious

grogi wrote: »

They are
a) easy to remember and easy to pass to the officer
b) provide enough uniqueness to allow identification.

PPS is unique - but nobody would remember that.

Uniqueness is not a scale. Name and date of birth alone are not unique and using them as an identifier runs the risk of records of different persons being mixed up.

martingriff

grogi wrote: »

They are
a) easy to remember and easy to pass to the officer
b) provide enough uniqueness to allow identification.

PPS is unique - but nobody would remember that.

They are not unique. Unique means there is no one else with that combination. There may have 3 grogi born on the same name unlikely but can happen
Cant go checking all be a data breach

ohnonotgmail

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Name and date of birth would not be sufficient. These are not unique

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Uniqueness is not a scale. Name and date of birth alone are not unique and using them as an identifier runs the risk of records of different persons being mixed up.

On their own they are not 100% guaranteed to be unique. But they are sufficient for an initial search and will return a single result for the VAST majority of cases. If multiple results are returned for the name/dob combination then further criteria can be used. This is not a difficult or unique problem.

ohnonotgmail

martingriff wrote: »

They are not unique. Unique means there is no one else with that combination. There may have 3 grogi born on the same name unlikely but can happen
Cant go checking all be a data breach

There would not be a data breach as the garda would be doing the search as part of their duties.

martingriff

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I carried licence for few months and it cracked into 3 pieces. How is it suppose to survive in ones pocket. I don't use a wallet, I don't need to have something bulky in my pocket.

So where do you hold your cash or bank cards

grogi

martingriff wrote: »

So where do you hold your cash or bank cards

In a phone?!

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

On their own they are not 100% guaranteed to be unique. But they are sufficient for an initial search and will return a single result for the VAST majority of cases. If multiple results are returned for the name/dob combination then further criteria can be used. This is not a difficult or unique problem.

Sorry but no just because it will work x% means it can be used. It has to work for everyone the same. Also as someone says what do we do for foreign licences

martingriff

grogi wrote: »

In a phone?!

Well there you go. New licence same size as bank card.

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

There would not be a data breach as the garda would be doing the search as part of their duties.

No as they opened someone elses details not the person they were talking to

ohnonotgmail

martingriff wrote: »

No as they opened someone elses details not the person they were talking to

You really need to think of the implications of what you are saying.

Cee-Jay-Cee

....... wrote: »

I was stopped recently and asked to produce my licence to nearest Garda Station within 10 days.

I dont get it. What does it achieve? It made work for me having to go up there, find parking, go in and produce it. It made work for the guy in there, recording the details. And it made work for the guy who requested I produce it, checking that it was produced.

But to what end? 3 people have now done some work - for what? For the original guy to just cross out that i did it? Is that all it is - a box ticking exercise?

Surely the Gardai know if I have a valid licence or not from the computer system? And if they dont - why dont they? Why is millions being wasted annually on people traipsing up and showing their licence and 2 Guards wasting time on it?

Is it just make work?

If you haven't produced your licence before then no, they do not have details of it. The RSA/NDLS retain licence details, gardai don't have access to them unless they specifically request them from the NDLS. They give you 10 days so as to allow you sufficient time.

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You really need to think of the implications of what you are saying.

In what way

grogi

martingriff wrote: »

Well there you go. New licence same size as bank card.

You completely misread my post. With NFC you can pay with your phone. In more advanced places there are schemes that allow to pay with the phone even without NFC...

But sure, you can always carry the checkbook.

grogi

martingriff wrote: »

Sorry but no just because it will work x% means it can be used. It has to work for everyone the same. Also as someone says what do we do for foreign licences

If it doesn't work in those 0.07% cases, the Gardai can always rollback to the paper ways and ask to produce actual paper/plastic licence ..

whiterebel

Stanford wrote: »

Its beyond belief that a country known for its IT capability cannot produce a "live" database whereby the Gardai, via a hand held device, cannot have access to driving licence data,PULSE, road tax data and insurance data whereby a garda cannot see all the above on the spot. And please don't quote GDPR, we had this problem long before GDPR Regs came in.

Mindboggling

Its mindboggling to think you said that we are known for IT capability. We couldnt implement a system for wages in the HSE, we couldn't manage evoting, PULSE isn't fit for purpose (unless its for the wrong purpose), we can't intergrate Dublin Transport...the list goes on and on for our IT failures in this country.

ohnonotgmail

martingriff wrote: »

In what way

Well imagine the person they stopped gave the wrong name. would the garda looking up that name be committing a data breach?

The Bishop Basher

whiterebel wrote: »

Its mindboggling to think you said that we are known for IT capability. We couldnt implement a system for wages in the HSE, we couldn't manage evoting, PULSE isn't fit for purpose (unless its for the wrong purpose), we can't intergrate Dublin Transport...the list goes on and on for our IT failures in this country.

This thread is a good indicator of why that is.

If you believe you can’t do something, you’re right.

ohnonotgmail

whiterebel wrote: »

Its mindboggling to think you said that we are known for IT capability. We couldnt implement a system for wages in the HSE, we couldn't manage evoting, PULSE isn't fit for purpose (unless its for the wrong purpose), we can't intergrate Dublin Transport...the list goes on and on for our IT failures in this country.

well they are more government IT failures. You cannot compare that with what is done in the private section. They dont employ the best and brightest in government IT at any level.

GM228

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

If you haven't produced your licence before then no, they do not have details of it. The RSA/NDLS retain licence details, gardai don't have access to them unless they specifically request them from the NDLS. They give you 10 days so as to allow you sufficient time.

Again this is incorrect, Gardaí have full access to both portions of the NVDF, it is automatically updated on a weekly and twice weekly basis. Gardaí don't request details from the NDLS, they can access it through the NVDF files which are integrated with Pulse.

Captain Obvious

GM228 wrote: »

Again this is incorrect, Gardaí have full access to both portions of the NVDF, it is automatically updated on a weekly and twice weekly basis. Gardaí don't request details from the NDLS, they can access it through the NVDF files which are integrated with Pulse.

PULSE does not provide full details. It only tells the Garda if the licence is active or inactive.

GM228

Captain Obvious wrote: »

PULSE does not provide full details. It only tells the Garda if the licence is active or inactive.

The full vehicle and driver database is available to the Gardaí.

Pulse allows a Guard to make either a driver or person enquiry, when a driver enquiry is made a lot more details than active or not are given, the one thing which is not returned however is penalty points details because they are not actually held on the NVDF.

Captain Obvious

GM228 wrote: »

Pulse allows a Guard to make either a driver or person enquiry, when a driver enquiry is made a lot more details than active or not are given, the one thing which is not returned however is penalty points details.

It doesn't say what the person is licenced to drive though does it? That's the most important information required.

martingriff

grogi wrote: »

You completely misread my post. With NFC you can pay with your phone. In more advanced places there are schemes that allow to pay with the phone even without NFC...

But sure, you can always carry the checkbook.

Ì did thought you meant in pockets some covers have. I also said cards easy to use tap and go

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well imagine the person they stopped gave the wrong name. would the garda looking up that name be committing a data breach?

Be interesting to find out I do not know

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well they are more government IT failures. You cannot compare that with what is done in the private section. They dont employ the best and brightest in government IT at any level.

Systems built by private companies by tender I imagine. Also if this system was done be done the same way by tender for the public sector.

H3llR4iser

Frankly, I think it's a decent system; In other places, it's a fine on the spot and sometimes penalty points, regardless of the fact you may have just forgotten your wallet home...would we really prefer that?

It happened to me a couple of years ago: I was downstairs doing some work on the car.
Finished the job, decided to go around the block to check everything was all right; It never occurred to me that, having come down from my apartment just to do some maintenance I obviously only carried my keys and my toolbox; Also, it was late at night. Hey presto, checkpoint 500m outside my building - no license on me. Got the "10 days to produce a license" talk, dropped by the local station the next morning on my way to work, problem solved.

GM228

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It doesn't say what the person is licenced to drive though does it? That's the most important information required.

Yes it does, details of licence categories (and their validity dates) are held on the NVDF.

RobbieMD

GM228 wrote: »

Yes it does, details of licence categories (and their validity dates) are held on the NVDF.

No pulse doesn’t have that information, unless the licence has previously been shown at the station and inputted.
There is a designated email address for AGS to use to check licence information with NDLS.

GM228

RobbieMD wrote: »

No pulse doesn’t have that information, unless the licence has previously been shown at the station and inputted.
There is a designated email address for AGS to use to check licence information with NDLS.

Both portions of the NVDF are sent weekly and twice weekly to the Gardaí, they have full access to the system, something afforded under law and which does not require the NDLSs permission either.

Pulse is not the only way to access the files.

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well they are more government IT failures. You cannot compare that with what is done in the private section. They dont employ the best and brightest in government IT at any level.

Systems built by private companies by tender I imagine. Also if this system was done be done the same way by tender for the public sector.

ohnonotgmail

martingriff wrote: »

Systems built by private companies by tender I imagine. Also if this system was done be done the same way by tender for the public sector.

I've developed a number of systems for public bodies. Anything that involves public sector IT is a ****show. The only possible saving grace for a system for driving licence info is that the requirements should be straightforward. Though some public servant will do their best to add as many complications as possible.

TallGlass

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Why not just carry it in your wallet ?

Can be forgotten and even cards can be faked.

Should be computerised and still have a card (so said card or person can be verify that it is real and is the real driver), tax disc/insurance and NCT should all be ANPR based.

However such a cost saving measure would more than likely cost the Irish State billions of Euro somehow.

Captain Obvious

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

On their own they are not 100% guaranteed to be unique. But they are sufficient for an initial search and will return a single result for the VAST majority of cases. If multiple results are returned for the name/dob combination then further criteria can be used. This is not a difficult or unique problem.

You can't have a process that works most of the time, especially if it's a system to be enshrined in law.

GM228 wrote: »

Both portions of the NVDF are sent weekly and twice weekly to the Gardaí, they have full access to the system, something afforded under law and which does not require the NDLSs permission either.

Pulse is not the only way to access the files.

Not really sure what your original point was so.

ohnonotgmail

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You can't have a process that works most of the time, especially if it's a system to be enshrined in law.

it sounds llke you haven't a notion about the subject so i'll leave it there.

robtri

without the licence with you how do they know you are who you say you are??

Captain Obvious

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it sounds llke you haven't a notion about the subject so i'll leave it there.

Your licence has a unique licence number that distinguishes you from others who may have the same date of birth and use the same name. The only other identifier on the licence is the address, something which can change and is often outdated on licences. Even PULSE records would not be suitable because people often have multiple entries in it. What exactly is your proposal for distinguishing people who give a name and date of birth that brings back multiple entries?

RobbieMD

GM228 wrote: »

Both portions of the NVDF are sent weekly and twice weekly to the Gardaí, they have full access to the system, something afforded under law and which does not require the NDLSs permission either.

Pulse is not the only way to access the files.

What details on drivers licences are sent weekly and twice weekly? Are these uploaded to PULSE do you know?

I only quoted PULSE as you mentioned it in your previous posts. I’m aware there are about 70 handheld devices issued in certain sections that carry more information that PULSE does, but what other manner is available to access the files?

martingriff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I've developed a number of systems for public bodies. Anything that involves public sector IT is a ****show. The only possible saving grace for a system for driving licence info is that the requirements should be straightforward. Though some public servant will do their best to add as many complications as possible.

So it's there fault not the person who built it okay. So how would you create a system which would bring back the exact data the garda would need

vetinari

Can the guards really not pull up your license picture on their system?
Would seem to me that would make the most sense.
I always hate being asked bureaucracies where you're asked to produce a document that the system should already have.

martingriff

vetinari wrote: »

Can the guards really not pull up your license picture on their system?
Would seem to me that would make the most sense.
I always hate being asked bureaucracies where you're asked to produce a document that the system should already have.

How can they just pull up your licence it's not as if they see you and go oh yes its vetinari from there. I work in the revenue and I get people who ring up going I need help in this and that and when asked for there tax number it's well I am so and so from here surely you can find me.

n!ghtmancometh

Guards are trialling this in Limerick, would imagine it would be rolled out to every guard if successful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyKMywyS9k

The Bishop Basher

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Guards are trialling this in Limerick, would imagine it would be rolled out to every guard if successful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyKMywyS9k

Great to see that..

galwaytt

vetinari wrote: »

Can the guards really not pull up your license picture on their system?
Would seem to me that would make the most sense.
I always hate being asked bureaucracies where you're asked to produce a document that the system should already have.

Look: my local credit union can do that. When you open your account they take your picture. Every transaction it's up there on the tellers screen. But the multi-billion bailed out banks can't. Go figure.....m

fancy pigeon

robtri wrote: »

without the licence with you how do they know you are who you say you are??