Gillette | Toxic masculinity advert.

Wibbs

Dannyriver wrote: »

I agree reality is that people tend to be dominated by external forces and societal circumstances but that doesn't however make what I ve said an illusion.

More delusion than illusion. Which as I say if it works for people and it usually does then fair enough.

By the way which part of it do you disagree with?

However self worth is always intrinsic i.e how you feel about yourself is ultimately the individuals responsibility

no-one can force you to feel a particular way about yourself, the environment can and does succeed to define people's intrinsic value but ultimately it cannot decide for you

It is in fact the only true freedom that we as thinking animals have.

As John Lennon said 'a working class hero is something to be'.

Ah yes, John Lennon, the most middle class suburbanite of all the Beatles, who while a truly towering musical talent - and I love his music - was also given to bursts of monumentally unaware irony and outright bullshite. The A side of the very single that Working Class Hero is on, the song "Imagine" another example.

John. Earlier. Imagining no possessions at the door of his council house.


EDIT Just to be clear I do NOT have any issue with someone making a fortune on the back of talent and hard work, but save me the preachy bollocks aimed at your audience.

Muckka

What do you call engineering ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call space exploration ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call fishing ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call philosophy?
Toxic masculinity...

And so on....and on

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity.

Dannyriver

Wibbs wrote: »

More delusion than illusion. Which as I say if it works for people and it usually does then fair enough.

However self worth is always intrinsic i.e how you feel about yourself is ultimately the individuals responsibility

no-one can force you to feel a particular way about yourself, the environment can and does succeed to define people's intrinsic value but ultimately it cannot decide for you

It is in fact the only true freedom that we as thinking animals have.

Ah yes, John Lennon, the most middle class suburbanite of all the Beatles, who while a truly towering musical talent - and I love his music - was also given to bursts of monumentally unaware irony and outright bullshite. The A side of the very single that Working Class Hero is on, the song "Imagine" another example.

John. Earlier. Imagining no possessions at the door of his council house.


EDIT Just to be clear I do NOT have any issue with someone making a fortune on the back of talent and hard work, but save me the preachy bollocks aimed at your audience.

I totally agree re Lennon and I'm also a huge fan but the line itself simply recognises that we are not all born equal his motives or ' his preachy bollocks aimed at his audience' can be easily separated from the point he is making which I'm sure you will agree is a good point [and a damn good song to boot]

But I think it's unfair to dismiss my original point as 'One that makes for stirring one liners on Arsebook and sells self help books and the like to the naive.' At no stage was I suggesting that it was easy for people to not define themselves and their worth by extrinsic values in fact I believe it's exactly the opposite, hence I quoted Lennon. I could also have quoted Bukowski s 'Born into this' which makes a similar point more graphically than Lennon did on working class hero. However my original post is not just a one liner on Arsebook book that sells self help books to the naive' although I'm sure such an existential message has been and is used in such a fashion.

El_Duderino 09

Muckka wrote: »

What do you call engineering ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call space exploration ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call fishing ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call philosophy?
Toxic masculinity...

And so on....and on

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity.

Sounds like there's no problem then. While you lads are enjoying the gender wars I'm heading to the pub with work mates for Friday evening pints. Men and women sitting around supping pints, taking the p1ss out of each other and getting a Haggis burger to celebrate Burns Night.

Then I'll head home to watch a load of men I admire play rugby and demonstrate the results of hard work and dedicated training.

I won't be affected by any of this gender wars stuff and Im confident I won't have anyone accuse me of toxic masculinity. If you feel you're encountering gender wars or being accused of toxic masculinity regularly in the real world, there's a great chance you're going looking for trouble.

As with most things in life, you'll find trouble if you go looking for it. But as long as you're enjoying yourselves in the gender wars I'm not going to tell you what to do.

Dannyriver

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sounds like there's no problem then. While you lads are enjoying the gender wars I'm heading to the pub with work mates for Friday evening pints. Men and women sitting around supping pints, taking the p1ss out of each other and getting a Haggis burger to celebrate Burns Night.

Then I'll head home to watch a load of men I admire play rugby and demonstrate the results of hard work and dedicated training.

I won't be affected by any of this gender wars stuff and Im confident I won't have anyone accuse me of toxic masculinity. If you feel you're encountering gender wars or being accused of toxic masculinity regularly in the real world, there's a great chance you're going looking for trouble.

As with most things in life, you'll find trouble if you go looking for it. But as long as you're enjoying yourselves in the gender wars I'm not going to tell you what to do.

Well said that man

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sounds like there's no problem then. While you lads are enjoying the gender wars I'm heading to the pub with work mates for Friday evening pints. Men and women sitting around supping pints, taking the p1ss out of each other and getting a Haggis burger to celebrate Burns Night.

Then I'll head home to watch a load of men I admire play rugby and demonstrate the results of hard work and dedicated training.

I won't be affected by any of this gender wars stuff and Im confident I won't have anyone accuse me of toxic masculinity. If you feel you're encountering gender wars or being accused of toxic masculinity regularly in the real world, there's a great chance you're going looking for trouble.

As with most things in life, you'll find trouble if you go looking for it. But as long as you're enjoying yourselves in the gender wars I'm not going to tell you what to do.

But according to that ad, talking to/approaching women is toxic...hopefully one of your lads will be well versed in radical feminist rhetoric and stop you engaging with women!!

Things like approaching women (which is no easy task) which is something I've done plenty of times...is now toxic.

Play fighting, which I would have done as a kid, is toxic.

I had no idea my parents, who worked damn hard to raise a family, were actually ingraining in me toxic behaviour.

Of course, I am well versed in how manipulative media can be, so I wouldn't pay any attention to radical feminist rhetoric...but some will, including women!

AudreyHepburn

Cassandra Shapely Snag wrote: »

It doesn't strike me as entirely wrong? I agree that we can't click a finger and smile at ourselves and pretend our way into loving ourselves, but ultimately we can take responsibility of how we act on a day to day basis and through our actions improve our self worth.

No one is disputing that but the problem is that’s not the message this ad and modern feminism is trying to send.

Rather the idea is that men, and only men, are responsible for all the bad things in life and we women are innocent little flowers that can do no wrong. And like it or not that is not how life works.

We as women need to accept that we too have agency and responsibilities. We too can make mistakes and we aren’t all goodness and light.

It is not toxic or dangerous or creepy for a man to want to approach a woman nor does it make him a deviant and we as women need to stop perpetuating that idea.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Muckka wrote: »

What do you call engineering ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call space exploration ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call fishing ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call philosophy?
Toxic masculinity...

And so on....and on

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity.

You'd wonder where the human race would be today without all this 'toxic masculinity'.

Living in trees?

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

But according to that ad, talking to/approaching women is toxic...hopefully one of your lads will be well versed in radical feminist rhetoric and stop you engaging with women!!

Things like approaching women (which is no easy task) which is something I've done plenty of times...is now toxic.

Play fighting, which I would have done as a kid, is toxic.

I had no idea my parents, who worked damn hard to raise a family, were actually ingraining in me toxic behaviour.

Of course, I am well versed in how manipulative media can be, so I wouldn't pay any attention to radical feminist rhetoric...but some will, including women!

Hanging around with women sound like a tough subject for you if that's actually way you think.

Dannyriver

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No one is disputing that but the problem is that’s not the message this ad and modern feminism is trying to send.

Rather the idea is that men, and only men, are responsible for all the bad things in life and we women are innocent little flowers that can do no wrong. And like it or not that is not how life works.

We as women need to accept that we too have agency and responsibilities. We too can make mistakes and we aren’t all goodness and light.

It is not toxic or dangerous or creepy for a man to want to approach a woman nor does it make him a deviant and we as women need to stop perpetuating that idea.

He was referring to a post I had posted relating to self worth not the Gillette ad

El_Duderino 09

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Muckka wrote: »

What do you call engineering ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call space exploration ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call fishing ?
Toxic masculinity.

What do you call philosophy?
Toxic masculinity...

And so on....and on

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity.

You'd wonder where the human race would be today without all this 'toxic masculinity'.

Living in trees?

Ah lads you're doing each other no favours by winding yourselves up with this nonsense. Has anyone ever said engineering, philosophy, fishing and space exploration is toxic masculinity?

Dannyriver

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No one is disputing that but the problem is that’s not the message this ad and modern feminism is trying to send.

Rather the idea is that men, and only men, are responsible for all the bad things in life and we women are innocent little flowers that can do no wrong. And like it or not that is not how life works.

We as women need to accept that we too have agency and responsibilities. We too can make mistakes and we aren’t all goodness and light.

It is not toxic or dangerous or creepy for a man to want to approach a woman nor does it make him a deviant and we as women need to stop perpetuating that idea.

I ve watched it a good few times and I still can't see where it suggests that 'only men are responsible for all bad things in life' nor that 'women are innocent little flowers that can do no wrong'. In fact neither of those points are addressed.

Muckka

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

You'd wonder where the human race would be today without all this 'toxic masculinity'.

Living in trees?

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

You'd wonder where the human race would be today without all this 'toxic masculinity'.

Living in trees?

Probably and sure we'll see who's monkey branching to the monkey on the top of the tree.
It won't be the weak I'll tell you that for sure.

Apparently we're all equal and should be working at the same pace.
So if yourself and someone who's smaller and not so physically challenged and the opposite sex decide to build a fort and are lifting a big slab of rock together, it's ok you'll both be strong enough to hold it up.

If you're running from a wild boar stay at the same pace as everyone else, because it's acceptable we're all of equal strength.

If you decide to express your artistic side and feel confident that you'll do the best job decorating the cave and discovered 2d drawing.
Let someone else who's **** at drawing draw it, and you articulate your art work at the same standard.
Because we're all equal.

If your family is attacked from the opposing tribe, let the opposite sex sort it out because we're equally as tactical in war and fighting.

Stand back, see how it goes.

If your partner is struggling to dig ye out of a landslide, do not I repeat do not attempt to say you'll help out.
That's sexist.

If you're told you're not pulling your weight, never ever talk back.
Just do as you're told.

But don't you tell anyone else they're not pulling their own weight, you'll be told quite firmly it's custom and practice.

If your mate is cold, do not ever attempt to offer your spare animal skin.
That's not acceptable, it's like holding open a door for someone it's an insult.

If this was all sorted out back in the time of the flint stone's we'd all be in the same place...

Does anyone have a light

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Hanging around with women sound like a tough subject for you if that's actually way you think.

Nice smug little dig there....but of course you know I was referring to approaching women, not hanging around with female friends...be sure to stop any man who approaches one of your female friends...you're world needs you!!

Silentcorner

Dannyriver wrote: »

I ve watched it a good few times and I still can't see where it suggests that 'only men are responsible for all bad things in life' nor that 'women are innocent little flowers that can do no wrong'. In fact neither of those points are addressed.

Subtly isn't easily spotted...for some anyway!

Muckka

Silentcorner wrote: »

Nice smug little dig there....but of course you know I was referring to approaching women, not hanging around with female friends...be sure to stop any man who approaches one of your female friends...you're world needs you!!

I never ever approach women unless they're a friend, work colleague, working in retail, catering the public sector or an open exhibition.

I wouldn't even look them in the eye walking down the street, why ?

I couldn't be bothered,and what's the advantage of it ?

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Hanging around with women sound like a tough subject for you if that's actually way you think.

Nice smug little dig there....but of course you know I was referring to approaching women, not hanging around with female friends...be sure to stop any man who approaches one of your female friends...you're world needs you!!

OK, chatting to new women must be a stressful situation for you if that's how you actually think.

Yeah, I'm not going to stop anyone chatting to anyone else.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK, chatting to new women must be a stressful situation for you if that's how you actually think.

Yeah, I'm not going to stop anyone chatting to anyone else.

Chatting to new women is not easy for me, absolutely agree...doesn't stop me either...nice thinly veiled passive aggression there tho, you are well versed!

If you are not going to stop anyone chatting to anyone of your female friends, you are part of what Gillette, and radical feminists believes to be toxic masculinity.

AudreyHepburn

Dannyriver wrote: »

I ve watched it a good few times and I still can't see where it suggests that 'only men are responsible for all bad things in life' nor that 'women are innocent little flowers that can do no wrong'. In fact neither of those points are addressed.

Not directly but the inference is there as it is in campaigns like metoo.

Men do not need to be taught how to act and campaigns like this encourage the idea that it’s not ok to go anywhere near women nowadays.

Dannyriver

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Not directly but the inference is there as it is in campaigns like metoo.

Men do not need to be taught how to act and add like this encourage the idea that it’s not ok to go anywhere near women nowadays.

An inference is subjective. And SOME men do need to be reminded how to act and the old school approach of previous generations which is still unfortunately part of the culture for many men is being addressed in the ad. I don t feel in the least bit threatened by the ad and will continue to approach women in the way I've been raised to do with respect and an understanding of boundaries and don't fear it one bit. In other words I don't think for a second the ad is aimed at anyone who already understands this.

Dannyriver

Silentcorner wrote: »

Subtly isn't easily spotted...for some anyway!

I could also argue that when threatened we see what we want to see in order to confirm our fears...some people anyway!

gizmo555

Dannyriver wrote: »

An inference is subjective.

The beginning of the ad including the term "toxic masculinity" is objectively sexist.

Zorya

Dannyriver wrote: »

An inference is subjective. And SOME men do need to be reminded how to act and the old school approach of previous generations which is still unfortunately part of the culture for many men is being addressed in the ad. I don t feel in the least bit threatened by the ad and will continue to approach women in the way I've been raised to do with respect and an understanding of boundaries and don't fear it one bit. In other words I don't think for a second the ad is aimed at anyone who already understands this.

Like Joe Rogan said, well to paraphrase him, you think the obnoxious rapey piece of crap is gonna look at the Gillette ad and go whoa Bro I'm gonna up my lifestyle game and be a better man.

The vast majority who are already sound don't need this crap and the bollixes won't give a damn what an ad says. So it's just some kind of idiotic signalling.

ArchXStanton

Silentcorner wrote: »

But according to that ad, talking to/approaching women is toxic...hopefully one of your lads will be well versed in radical feminist rhetoric and stop you engaging with women!!

Things like approaching women (which is no easy task) which is something I've done plenty of times...is now toxic.

Play fighting, which I would have done as a kid, is toxic.

I had no idea my parents, who worked damn hard to raise a family, were actually ingraining in me toxic behaviour.

Of course, I am well versed in how manipulative media can be, so I wouldn't pay any attention to radical feminist rhetoric...but some will, including women!

Approaching should be left up to women anyways in this day and age, too much a risk for men, unfortunately women's egos wouldn't handle the rejection

Dannyriver

Zorya wrote: »

Like Joe Rogan said, well to paraphrase him, you think the obnoxious rapey piece of crap is gonna look at the Gillette ad and go whoa Bro I'm gonna up my lifestyle game and be a better man.

The vast majority who are already sound don't need this crap and the bollixes won't give a damn what an ad says. So it's just some kind of idiotic signalling.

I'm totally anti big corporations in general and Proctor and Gamble are among the worst of them, absolute pricks not for a second do I think they give 2 flying ****s but that s a different conversation entirely. I thought the thread was about the content of the ad.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK, chatting to new women must be a stressful situation for you if that's how you actually think.

Yeah, I'm not going to stop anyone chatting to anyone else.

Chatting to new women is not easy for me, absolutely agree...doesn't stop me either...nice thinly veiled passive aggression there tho, you are well versed!

If you are not going to stop anyone chatting to anyone of your female friends, you are part of what Gillette, and radical feminists believes to be toxic masculinity.

I bet chatting to new women is hard if you take that attitude with you.

I don't take moral philosophy from ads on YouTube. I suggest you stop doing so if thats what you're doing. If you don't, then your pity parade is of your own making

Dannyriver

The Squad wrote: »

He means chatting women up is tough. Which it can be.

Doing anything from a place of trepidation can be tough.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I bet chatting to new women is hard if you take that attitude with you.

I don't take moral philosophy from ads on YouTube. I suggest you stop doing so if thats what you're doing. If you don't, then your pity parade is of your own making

Whats with the passive aggressive tone??? It is hard to believe you don't take moral philosophy from an advert and yet here you are getting all hot and bothered about a conversation on an anonymous forum!!!

Don't worry about me, decades of life's ups and downs haven't yet robbed me of my ability to enjoy life!!

This is more than you're typical run of the mill advert....and well you know it!

Dannyriver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Approaching should be left up to women anyways in this day and age, too much a risk for men, unfortunately women's egos wouldn't handle the rejection

:eek:

Dannyriver

The Squad wrote: »

I don't care how much of a player you are, if your heart doesn't start to thump when you cold approach a girl the you're lying or dead on the inside.

I don t know what to say to that other than in your eyes I must be a liar and I'm certainly not a player.