Werewolf Post Game Feedback Thread

quickbeam

Wolves are generally too loud or too quiet, or sometimes average.

They react aggressively to being accused or they don’t react at all.

They can be helpful to the village to make themselves look villagery or they can be a hindrance.

They never vote for teammates, or do so that they can create distance from them later.

They either start or join bandwagons

They’ll never admit to winning a prize, or will to make themselves look villagery.

They’ll be too lazy to FFA or ISO or they’ll put work in to look villagery.

khalessi

quickbeam wrote: »

Wolves are generally too loud or too quiet, or sometimes average.

They react aggressively to being accused or they don’t react at all.

They can be helpful to the village to make themselves look villagery or they can be a hindrance.

They never vote for teammates, or do so that they can create distance from them later.

They either start or join bandwagons

They’ll never admit to winning a prize, or will to make themselves look villagery.

They’ll be too lazy to FFA or ISO or they’ll put work in to look villagery.

Well that clarifies things

sKeith

khalessi wrote: »

Well that clarifies things

They refer to silly things like day0, which des nt exist, just to confuse everybody. only night 0 exists and can last as long as you want, even spanning many real days.


Sometimes, for absolutely no reason at all, a villager for no reason at all calls night 0, day 1, and nobody corrects them. This is said to be actting the wolf, and will result in there death at lynch time.

khalessi

sKeith wrote: »

They refer to silly things like day0, which des nt exist, just to confuse everybody. only night 0 exists and can last as long as you want, even spanning many real days.


Sometimes, for absolutely no reason at all, a villager for no reason at all calls night 0, day 1, and nobody corrects them. This is said to be actting the wolf, and will result in there death at lynch time.

ahh yes Day 0 that'll be the part of the glossary you wrote:D

Necro

Genuinely it depends. After a couple of games you'll find what works best for you.

Some people like a scattergun approach and accusing people to test their reaction, rattling trees or so to say.

Others prefer to do post analysis, or interaction analysis, or vote analysis.

Basically it's very hard to nail down what exactly works as every game is different. What I might do in game X, I'd very often do the opposite in game Y lol

tusk

And wagonomics is a sorcery that some mortals will just never understand...

Green&Red

khalessi wrote: »

Hi all
thanks for access again honestly didnt have access all yesterday and never requested it be blocked just presumed that was a given during game play.

Thanks though for a great game and all the work that goes into it



but just wanted to ask the more experienced players, what tells are you looking for that someone is a wolf or not

I've found that I'm so bad at picking wolves that at this stage if I suspect someone of being a wolf I just move them to the lock clear pile immediately

Baggly

There are two things i think we need to have a discussion about regarding the game. For one, its a fairly straightforward reminder of incidents and behaviours that we have encountered in the past and developed rules for. For the second, its something we have discussed before after games, and i think it would be a good idea to renew that discussion.

First thing is abuse. We (forum mods) developed a very specific rule on abuse that (to be knowledge) has been included in all of the formal 'big monthly' games we have had in the past 12-18 months. Werewolf is a great game and relies upon buttons being pushed. I dont think there is a way to remove this from the game and more to the point, i wouldnt want to. However, there has to be a lever that players who are feeling put upon can pull to stop any abuse they feel is beyond the scope of the game. In the most recent game, it was rule no 5 and there were a few incidents and posts where this rule wasnt adhered to. I say adhered to, as its not just a rule, but also an explicit process for people to stop themselves from suffering abuse from another player, without it having to escalate to game or forum mod level. I want to remind everyone of that rule/process now. Because it was me who asked another player to calm it down and stop abuse, and that player ignored the rule and my request. I dont think thats acceptable as a player, as a game mod (not of this game i know, but ive modded a game or two in my time) and as a forum mod.

For reference, the rule to which i am referring to is:

5. Policy on Abuse: Boards has a no-abuse rule in place that is in effect in this forum as well. By all means, call people on dodgy behaviour, point out if they are being silly or behaving strangely, be aggressive in your approach; but DO NOT abuse another player. If you feel another player has stepped over a line, the first step is to ask them to stop; if they do not, please PM a forum mod (sullivlo/Baggly/quickbeam) or use the report button on the post in question. Forum mods will investigate and action any issues at an appropriate time, keeping the game mods informed of any actions as needed.

There was an incident in the game, as i have mentioned. A modkill occured, and any follow up that is going to happen wont involve me as i was involved in the game and the incident. Im not looking to discuss this particular incident; and to that effect i wont be commenting on it. At the same time, its important old and new members are aware of all of the above.




Second thing is angleshooting. So this is very hard to define as, even by the definition i just googled, angleshooting cannot be strictly considered cheating - its just a bit underhanded. Again, for reference, what im going off applies to poker rather than WW. Maybe someone can point me to a WW specific definition; but for the sake of the discussion, this is what i mean when i say angleshooting:

Angle shooting in poker refers to the practice of using various underhanded or unfair methods in order to take advantage of an inexperienced opponent. Such behaviour may appear to be unethical, but as long as it does not actually break any rules, angle shooting cannot strictly be considered cheating. A simple example would be peeking at a player’s hole cards when he/she fails to cover them up properly, but there are many more advanced forms which are more malicious and marginally legal at best.

https://www.frixo.com/sbook/articles/what-is-angle-shooting.asp

Now as i said in game, ive done this before myself whereby i posted a pic from RL to 'prove' i had stuff on IRL. As i also said, i decided after i did so that while i wasnt breaking any rules, its not a great tactic. Its kind of irrelevant to the game (whether i had stuff on or not doesnt impact my alignment or role) and its the kind of thing that is unfair on newer players, as they may not know its relevant or not.

This is one limited example of angleshooting. TBH, there are probably lots more that have happened in the forum that im just not aware of, or maybe i dont realise are angleshooting. No rules have been broken as far as im aware, so im not looking to blame anyone or point any fingers (hence using myself as an example), but i think it would be useful for the community to discuss what we think is ok and not ok with regards to bringing non-game based info into games.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, i think it would be great to discuss this.

Necro

Baggly, I think your post deserves more than a couple of lines in response so I'll take a proper read when I'm not working tomorrow and respond properly then, just so you know I'm not ignoring the above

Green&Red

Hey Baggly, I’ll respond to your first half tomorrow but on ur second point

I had no issue with Eva’s posts, none at all, IMO it’s part of the game. I know I was in a position Wednesday where I was flat out, I posted a couple of times in my BR but not on the game thread cause I didn’t want to get drawn into something I had to walk away from. It’s similar to what Eva did, much more what ur talking about from what I understand. There’s wolves who just go silent for full games to stay under the radar, IMO that’s much worse but still part of the game. Impossible to stop but there’s much more satisfaction in winning a game ur front and centre

duffman13

On the angleshooting thing, I wouldn't really have an opinion one way or the other, it wouldn't affect my thoughts on someone's alignment just more so on how they play the game and what they post rather than what they are doing in RL.

As for misbehaviour, I've sympathy for the mods on this one, after the last game and having someone close account mid game, the Orla carry on was arguably more difficult to deal with. A side show of looking for attention and generally making the mods and fellow players lives difficult (especially the wolves). It only takes one player to bring down a game and this was as close to it as I've seen since I started playing so just wanted to say fair play to the mods for keeping the show on the road.

khalessi

As a newbie, I thought Orla situation well handled and as stated elsewhere by me, I thought it was a task so I didnt pay much attention other then what is the game angle. It must have been more annoying to the more experienced players who knew better.

The angleshooting I saw a photo didnt see benefit of it so ignored it and now know that it has a name. Ya learn something everyday.

Anyhow well handled by mods

Choc Chip

I didnt have an issue with the rl posts. I try to not bring rl into the game, though I'm sure I complained about sleep deprivation a couple of times and I definitely b*tched about my 2 tiny fluffy problems in the back room.

I'm not sure that rl pics are angleshooting, more irrelevant and fluffy which is why I try not to do it. I know why eva did it though (getting hassle for not being around) and I agree with g&r that it's less of a problem than wolves just not posting.

I need to have a think about the first part. I think the rule in place is sufficient for players but I'm not sure that there's guidelines in place for game/forum mods as to what to do when that rule is broken/ignored?

Necro

Baggly wrote: »

Second thing is angleshooting. So this is very hard to define as, even by the definition i just googled, angleshooting cannot be strictly considered cheating - its just a bit underhanded. Again, for reference, what im going off applies to poker rather than WW. Maybe someone can point me to a WW specific definition; but for the sake of the discussion, this is what i mean when i say angleshooting:



https://www.frixo.com/sbook/articles/what-is-angle-shooting.asp

Now as i said in game, ive done this before myself whereby i posted a pic from RL to 'prove' i had stuff on IRL. As i also said, i decided after i did so that while i wasnt breaking any rules, its not a great tactic. Its kind of irrelevant to the game (whether i had stuff on or not doesnt impact my alignment or role) and its the kind of thing that is unfair on newer players, as they may not know its relevant or not.

This is one limited example of angleshooting. TBH, there are probably lots more that have happened in the forum that im just not aware of, or maybe i dont realise are angleshooting. No rules have been broken as far as im aware, so im not looking to blame anyone or point any fingers (hence using myself as an example), but i think it would be useful for the community to discuss what we think is ok and not ok with regards to bringing non-game based info into games.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, i think it would be great to discuss this.

Ok so leaving out the first part because as you said it's more of a reminder, so I think that (for me anyways) has been appropriately addressed.
can see the others above don't have an issue with stuff like posting RL pics on the game thread etc. I don't really either per se, it wouldn't affect my read on said player one iota at all.

Another example of angleshooting that I can personally remember is when I was involved in the World Championships game in 2018.

A player I was convinced was a wolf had constantly alluded to not being able to post as they were driving - yet continued to post anyways.
It was a clear lie, one they had introduced to the game themselves - but yet in the discussion as I read back afterwards people were accusing me of angleshooting.

Was I? Probably, tbh. But was it fair game as it was introduced by the other player? Well - yes.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you introduce other factors into the game thread that aren't really necessary you're opening up a major can of worms in terms of how people get their reads.

Personally I'd prefer if we just locked down the rule for all future games to stay in the game world - something like this wording (actually from a game myself, Baggly, sKeith and Drumpot modded):

Stay in the game world: This game takes place in Sunnydale and players are encouraged to get on board with the theme. You don't need to reveal your character, but refrain from talking about real life or the world outside the Buffy Universe during the game.

tusk

On the first point. I thought the mods were exactly correct in their leniency and eventual modkilling. The rebalance was brilliant.

Like you say there's not much we can do about people going off the rails and at the end of the day it's a game based on players having a certain degree of honor and respect for the game, the mods, and fellow players.

Sometimes we're just gonna have situations like the last couple where people either don't understand that, or just don't care.

On the second point as the 'angleshooter' in question, it feels a bit harsh tbh. I was legitimately in training and wasn't using it as a way to get one over on other players, or as a sneaky way to win.

I get the argument of keeping RL separate, but the nature of the game means that that's sometimes not possible. I like the idea necro mentioned of a new snippet calling this out directly. So then there is no ambiguity.

From my own perspective in this game, I was called out as a potential liar for saying something that was in fact true. I wonder would the same issue have been as prevalent had I done the same as a village who was taking the same heat. I likely would have responded in the same way to be honest.

Could be that I'm taking this a bit harshly because I'd never intend to cheat in any way and thinking that people would think that of me makes me feel a bit **** tbh :pac:

Baggly

It wasn't cheating Tusk. I hope you don't think I'm accusing you of cheating as you weren't. It's just a topic we haven't discussed in a while. What happened in this game in that regard wasnt even on the serious end of things imo.

Necro

Ah no, I don't think anyone is saying that at all tusk, or at least - speaking for myself I'm definitely not.

The problem - for me anyways - is that when playing WW anything people say on thread can, and has been used as a metaphorical stick to beat them with in the future.

Even in non-anon games using, eg: 'Green&Red was like this when he was a serial killer in Expendawolves' - which is meta, but also a form of angleshooting.

It's one that's really overbearing on other sites as the players rely heavily on their meta reads of X or Y in previous games - but thankfully isn't as prevalent here.

Drumpot

I think the angle shooiting thing is difficult to be fair. I honestly don’t remember ever intentionally using RL to try and gain an advantage. I’m not saying I haven’t done it, just most of the time I’m just rambling on or answering a question.

“Why weren’t you posting near munch?”. Is it any different if I make up some flavour “I was milking cows for the village as is my job, you know this” as opposed to just answering “busy at work”.

Also sometimes in games text can come across way more aggressive then intended (certainly in my case). In my head I’ve got will Ferrell “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills” gone but people read it as very aggressive. I have to watch for that cause I feel like I’m regularly mid interpreted in terms of tone that I intend versus how it’s taken.

The lazy villager comments really grind my gears. I know they can be used to taunt but if they are genuine I find them snotty. Like giving out to a fellow 5 a side team mate cause they aren’t good enough or won’t play to way you want. I’ve done spreadsheets and generally don’t use them anymore cause they drove me nuts. In many regards I Wing each game as I’m here for some fun.

tusk

Lol cheers lads. I'm just a sensetive old fool sometimes.

It's an interesting topic. Interested to see what everyone has to say on it

Green&Red

On the first point
The rules are very clear, it’s impossible to account for instances where someone just ignores them. It was handled very well, sometimes people just go off the deep end, could be RL issues.

LadySkunk

Oh feedback on one night WW by Clara and Baggly.

Great game, I love being a baddie and loved the wolf room being on Discord, it added an extra element to it including thinking I was posting in the main channel :pac:

I really liked the mods interaction too, staying impartial but giving me a good giggle and listening to my crazy ramblings. The game was played in good spirits, everyone was nice and respectable. Not enough time for the paranoid insanity to kick in :P

Thanks again guys for running, was such a fun surprise

Clarabel

LadySkunk wrote: »

Oh feedback on one night WW by Clara and Baggly.

Great game, I love being a baddie and loved the wolf room being on Discord, it added an extra element to it including thinking I was posting in the main channel :pac:

I really liked the mods interaction too, staying impartial but giving me a good giggle and listening to my crazy ramblings. The game was played in good spirits, everyone was nice and respectable. Not enough time for the paranoid insanity to kick in :P

Thanks again guys for running, was such a fun surprise

Okay we'll try harder next time!

TheValeyard

Mad, crazy to follow, but good fun. We'll done mods. Take a bow.

khalessi

WW South park. Fantastic game well modded. Loved having a role and enjoyed having a backroom to chat to myself and ask kinda mod type questions. Well done all round managing a fabulous game and all the backrooms, read through them last night a lot of hard work. Thank you.

Rikand

Wolf team being able to block its own night kills. I feel like that must be game breaky in a normal game of sorts, but I guess in a necroplex game, anything is possible

sKeith

Rikand wrote: »

Wolf team being able to block its own night kills. I feel like that must be game breaky in a normal game of sorts, but I guess in a necroplex game, anything is possible

They were also able to kill themselves if not careful with roles. See Derry dying.

Barney92

Rikand wrote: »

Wolf team being able to block its own night kills. I feel like that must be game breaky in a normal game of sorts, but I guess in a necroplex game, anything is possible

I have no problem with them being able to block their own munches. I think that is a very interesting route that can be taken. I wasn't so sure of the flavour around it as it made it seem like there was an actual attempt at a munch when there never actually was since the wolves knew they had already stopped themselves from munching the person. I suppose flavour be flavour and all that but looking back that's the only I'd have an issue with.

Other than that I thought it was a cracking game and fair play to the mods for running that and keeping on top of everything.

Choc Chip

Barney92 wrote: »

I have no problem with them being able to block their own munches. I think that is a very interesting route that can be taken. I wasn't so sure of the flavour around it as it made it seem like there was an actual attempt at a munch when there never actually was since the wolves knew they had already stopped themselves from munching the person. I suppose flavour be flavour and all that but looking back that's the only I'd have an issue with.

Other than that I thought it was a cracking game and fair play to the mods for running that and keeping on top of everything.

But the flavour was what gave it away - the wolf both munched and blocked. Frank was close to getting it when he said that tegan had blocked both him and eva. If he'd noticed that there had been an attempted munch both night, he'd have realised it couldn't be either of them and must be phil. If the flavour hadn't had a munch at all, it would have been impossible to work out. That's easy to say watching from the dead room where we can quiz the mods on it though.

Rikand

Choc Chip wrote: »

But the flavour was what gave it away - the wolf both munched and blocked. Frank was close to getting it when he said that tegan had blocked both him and eva. If he'd noticed that there had been an attempted munch both night, he'd have realised it couldn't be either of them and must be phil. If the flavour hadn't had a munch at all, it would have been impossible to work out. That's easy to say watching from the dead room where we can quiz the mods on it though.

Yeah, you guys were able to ask the mods.

When I asked the mods, i got a

<shrug>

Barney92

Choc Chip wrote: »

But the flavour was what gave it away - the wolf both munched and blocked. Frank was close to getting it when he said that tegan had blocked both him and eva. If he'd noticed that there had been an attempted munch both night, he'd have realised it couldn't be either of them and must be phil. If the flavour hadn't had a munch at all, it would have been impossible to work out. That's easy to say watching from the dead room where we can quiz the mods on it though.

My point is though that they didn't actually attempt to munch anyone. Yes they put in the order to munch the person, but they knew it wasn't going through so they didn't actually attempt anything. Had there been an announcement of no munch, or even no munch announcement I think we wouldn't quite have gone down the believing Phil as much as we did route. Now, I probably would still have suspected the others before Phil so it probably doesn't make a difference.