The war on meat

MFPM

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Why do vegans need supplements then?

Just like meat eaters some vegans take supplements and some don't - they don't 'need' them as such.

EdgeCase

MFPM wrote: »

Why? Do you have some medical condition that necessitates the consumption of meat?

They could be a highly intelligent cat that's figured out how to post on boards. Stop being so judgemental!

gozunda

Cina wrote: »

A lot of good points here, but still, meat contributes 17% of the human's food intake yet consumes ~80% of all food and water eaten/drank, which is clearly a massive discrepancy. Reducing meat production will only increase other food sources and surely that's a very good thing, no, given a lot of the food used to source meat production is imported from developing countries.

The problem is with meat is that all the focus always seems to be on its effect on climate change and ignores all the other negatives surrounding it which are perfectly valid.

Well the main problem with the figure of 80% is that it's a gross figure that hides the reality of producing human foodstuffs.

A detailed look at the data will show that nearly all the grain and animal feed produced is made up of the waste products of the human food industry, the processing of grains and crops unfit for human consumption. Livestock also consume grass and forage from grassland areas unsuited to arable or horticultual production. You will also find that the figures bandied about largely related US production figures and the water consumption figures bear little or no reality to most of the rest of the world.

Too much is of so what is given as 'negative' is driven imo by the ideological stance of a very small group who want to close down all animal farming. And is deeply flawed imo. Is there room for improvement. Yes there is.

ShauntaMetzel

MFPM wrote: »

Why? Do you have some medical condition that necessitates the consumption of meat?

Of course not. I am not saying to eat meat on a daily bases, but yes, I prefer to mix it with veggies or have 3-4 days in a week. Can you live without meat?

EdgeCase

I think we're ultimately going to have to change to very industrial production of proteins anyway. It could mean high rise production facilities growing things quite artificially like fungal proteins or even muscle proteins.

However, if you look at human population growth and the amount of land available for traditional agricultural. There's a serious looming crisis as at some stage the supply won't meet the demand.

silverharp

Meat if you attend Davos, veganism for everyone else.... , there is more money in pushing processed cr@p made from sugar, wheat, corn, and soy. If you started closing down the highly processed food industry you would more than achieve the alleged goal.

gozunda

MFPM wrote: »

Why? Do you have some medical condition that necessitates the consumption of meat?

Do you have a medical condition that requires you not to eat meat?

It's recognised as part of a healthy balanced diet. And your personal problem with that advice is?

EdgeCase

silverharp wrote: »

Meat if you attend Davos, veganism for everyone else.... , there is more money in pushing processed cr@p made from sugar, wheat, corn, and soy. If you started closing down the highly processed food industry you would more than achieve the alleged goal.

If you closed down the industrial food sector a large % of the population would die as it's production of relatively cheap and accessible calories are what has supported a lot of 20th / 21st century population growth.

There's a need to make food production sustainable but the notion that we can all go back to simpler times would mean you'd need the small populations of those times and also accept that regular famine was a common thing.

None of our intensive farming is good for the environment - there's a balance to be struck.

Wanderer78

EdgeCase wrote:

If you closed down the industrial food sector a large % of the population would die as it's production of relatively cheap and accessible calories are what has supported a lot of 20th / 21st century population growth.

some of these food producers are killing us slowly as they are

EdgeCase

Wanderer78 wrote: »

some of these food producers are killing us slowly as they are

Some of them but life expectancy has been steadily increasing in almost all developed countries.

The only developed country that has reversed that trend is the USA, but that's more to do with extremely poor distribution of wealth, very uneven access to healthcare and dismantling of social infrastructure.

whisky_galore

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Meat is going out of fashion , I have 9 nieces and nephews , two are vegetarian and one is vegan , they are perceived as bang on trend by their peers , Leo is tapping into this trend as there are votes in it but its also a stealthy way of justifying the introduction of carbon taxes which will be quite punitive for Ireland as we have dragged our heels on our 2020 targets.

Teens are into whatever the current fad is, I wouldn't take much notice. Look back on how you dressed as one.

Also Leo by his statement is neither vegan nor vegetarian. Simply cutting back, not eliminating meat.

silverharp

EdgeCase wrote: »

If you closed down the industrial food sector a large % of the population would die as it's production of relatively cheap and accessible calories are what has supported a lot of 20th / 21st century population growth.

Your don't need the Doritos or Coke aisles or oven ready lasagnes etc., and obesity levels suggest the West and now China etc are consuming too many calories per capita. Also you cant really market meat or vegetables, but think about all the useless back office people coming up with new formulations of the latest frankenfood and the marketing and sales that are needed to flog it.

Wanderer78

EdgeCase wrote:

The only developed country that has reversed that trend is the USA, but that's more to do with extremely poor distribution of wealth, very uneven access to healthcare and dismantling of social infrastructure.

Agree with all of these, but diet is also playing a part in this developing trend, there's an element to our food production systems that is extremely dangerous to us, many products should in fact be banned, particularly does with high sugar contents, and other addictive ingredients, these have been added to encourage addictive behaviours

Harry Palmr

The fake "zero sum game" part of this debate is worth highlighting, reducing meat consumption does not mean you are compelled to eat more soya, you just eat less meat. Meat is not actually filling, it's just a handy source of certain vitamins and proteins which can be found elsewhere.

Beef meat - Sodium, Potassium, Cobalamin, Calcium, Vitamins B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium
Kale - Potassium, Protein, Vitamins A/C/B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium

Dannyriver

Thea Spicy Nag wrote: »

Neither. It was in a plastic bench/outdoor storage box. I removed most of what was in it and poured water in it then whacked the only places it had left. It was really horrible. Kept getting stuck in corners and staring at me. Then when I finally hit it it wasn't clean and I had to hit it a couple of times before I got its head and it stopped twitching. Feel bad thinking about it. Definitely more humane ways of getting rid of a mouse. Was concerned about pathogens though, so I didn't want it to escape so I just did the first thing I thought of.

correct

monkeybutter

Excluding things like diesel inputs and transport which would most likely apply to plant based farming also and are only going to be solved in line without other issues.

Is animal farming not a cycle. Is the carbon not locked in.

Are the main issues that

1. Meat isn't and efficient use of resources, as in acreage of grown crops
2. It's cruel, I don't mean slaughtering animals by it's nature, but the more efficient the meat production, the worse the living conditions of the animals
3. Cows turn the carbon to methane? Is this not a cycle? Are we not near peak cycle on this anyway? The amount of methane in the atmosphere is low, although it is constantly produced by decay, so presumably it is not stable and is broken down. So is this really an issue?

qwerty ui op

gozunda wrote: »

Wtf? It's a thread about a bunch of lunatics investors launching a report about recreating the world in their image. Hence the discussion. Get it?

Do you discuss the report? No you write a long rambling piece of fluff about another thread and then leave out much of the relevant information All because someone mentioned a beefburger.
:rolleyes: I think it's fairly easy to spot similar contributions in that thread tbh.

Christ, talk about paranoia and piss poor judgement

First you say i'm copying and pasteing, now your saying I was involved in the thread I mention. I said checkout post "25" afaik, the post was made by a regular poster on farming and forestry, people can make what they want of it.

"someone mentioned a beefburger" - this thread from the beginning is littered with such comments . I wounder do these people know about common everyday farming

Such as MR "tasty tasty burger" above, does he even know how say... a calving jack works and why it might be needed almost ever farmer uses a calving jack for difficult calving.
You set the jack up against the back of the cow and it gives you the power of about 6 men. A lot of skill in using a jack so that means a lot of on the job training.
I'm not talking about cruelty I'm just saying how these jobs are done. Cruelty is when the farmer locks the cows head in crush gate and uses the tractor to get the calf out

whisky_galore

qwerty ui op wrote: »

I'm not talking about cruelty I'm just saying how these jobs are done. Cruelty is when the farmer locks the cows head in crush gate and uses the tractor to get the calf out

That's outright stupidity. You'll risk killing cow and calf that way.

silverharp

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The fake "zero sum game" part of this debate is worth highlighting, reducing meat consumption does not mean you are compelled to eat more soya, you just eat less meat. Meat is not actually filling, it's just a handy source of certain vitamins and proteins which can be found elsewhere.

Beef meat - Sodium, Potassium, Cobalamin, Calcium, Vitamins B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium
Kale - Potassium, Protein, Vitamins A/C/B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium

what? meat is extremely filling as is fat , its when you mix in sugar and carbs that satiety is undermined. How many steaks could you eat, versus say pigging out on a huge Indian, Chinese or Thai meal. there is no way you could keep up with just meat calorie for calorie

qwerty ui op

whisky_galore wrote: »

That's outright stupidity. You'll risk killing cow and calf that way.

agreed

Pretzill

I think it's a bid mad warning people off meat for climate change purposes - many of the fruit and vegetables we eat have thousands of air miles attached. We should be looking for more sustainable, locally produced products - and protein is good for us. B12 is hard to get without meat and pernicious anemia is nasty.

Gael23

Butcher Boy wrote: »

No but a day for every animal i have slaughtered.

Is that what you do for a living?

Dakota Dan

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The fake "zero sum game" part of this debate is worth highlighting, reducing meat consumption does not mean you are compelled to eat more soya, you just eat less meat. Meat is not actually filling, it's just a handy source of certain vitamins and proteins which can be found elsewhere.

Beef meat - Sodium, Potassium, Cobalamin, Calcium, Vitamins B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium
Kale - Potassium, Protein, Vitamins A/C/B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium

Except you’d have to eat a wagon load of kale and the nutrients are not as readily absorbed as eating meat.

Rows Grower

Gael23 wrote: »

Is that what you do for a living?

I seriously doubt he does it for a hobby.

Grayson

Pretzill wrote: »

I think it's a bid mad warning people off meat for climate change purposes - many of the fruit and vegetables we eat have thousands of air miles attached. We should be looking for more sustainable, locally produced products - and protein is good for us. B12 is hard to get without meat and pernicious anemia is nasty.

It's not hard to get. You just have to make sure to include other things in your diet. The same goes for protein.
I agree with the sentiment about travel though. However that too feeds into our meat eating. The problem is that producing meat involves a lot of transport too. Plus we export most of our beef. So that's more transport. The whole supply chain, including the production itself, is incredibly inefficient.

I can see our lifestyles changing over the next few years. In 30 years time our diets will have completely changed.

GreyEagle

Harry Palmr wrote: »

BeerWolf wrote: »

I ain't changing my diet because people can't curb overbreeding. If anything the world should be encouraging the reduction of the world's population.

Reduction suggests putting people to death of course!. The global population will rise until death and birth rates match, the fertility rate is dropping quickly now but it'll be end of the century before equaibrium is achieved as the average lifespan increases.

Unless of course there is an unstoppable disease or a global conflict.

Water John

The SNP MP on QT BBC1 last night made a good point. Pastureland meat production is a good way of sequestering carbon in the soil.
It was strange that the mad Brexiteer on the panel was looking for high food standards also.
This no meat argument is again a simplistic solution.

On food miles, our meat going to the UK or Europe is a short journey. The last apple I ate came from New Zealand.

gozunda

qwerty ui op wrote: »

Christ, talk about paranoia and piss poor judgement
First you say i'm copying and pasteing, now your saying I was involved in the thread I mention. I said checkout post "25" afaik, the post was made by a regular poster on farming and forestry, people can make what they want of it.
"someone mentioned a beefburger" - this thread from the beginning is littered with such comments . I wounder do these people know about common everyday farming
Such as MR "tasty tasty burger" above, does he even know how say... a calving jack works and why it might be needed almost ever farmer uses a calving jack for difficult calving. You set the jack up against the back of the cow and it gives you the power of about 6 men. A lot of skill in using a jack so that means a lot of on the job training. I'm not talking about cruelty I'm just saying how these jobs are done. Cruelty is when the farmer locks the cows head in crush gate and uses the tractor to get the calf out

So because the usual amount of silly posts from eejits as per normal AH your going to engage in a programme of hyperbole and bs. Nothing like going on blatant an anti farming rant for no reason other than to derail the thread :rolleyes:

Seanachai

I'm tweaking my diet and eating less meat as an experiment for health reasons, of my own free will, I just don't like coercion and propaganda being aimed at me. I also don't like industrial farming in general, for environmental and food quality reasons, I know it's necessary for large populations, but I'm not a big fan of those either to be honest.

I can see meat, or at least red meat becoming the preserve of the wealthy while the rest of use have to make do with lab-grown alternatives or like somebody said some kind of fungi protein.

I'd like to see the world return to perma-culture and local production, but politicians and the wealthy need taxpayers and consumers, so we probably are moving into the era of 'meat for the elite'

Seanachai

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The fake "zero sum game" part of this debate is worth highlighting, reducing meat consumption does not mean you are compelled to eat more soya, you just eat less meat. Meat is not actually filling, it's just a handy source of certain vitamins and proteins which can be found elsewhere.

Beef meat - Sodium, Potassium, Cobalamin, Calcium, Vitamins B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium
Kale - Potassium, Protein, Vitamins A/C/B-6/D, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium

I think the problem is one of quality, meat is farmed at a higher standard than a lot of vegetables. The soils they're growing in are so depleted that in order to get the equivalent nutrition, you would need to eat buckets of the plant material.

gozunda

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm tweaking my diet and eating less meat as an experiment for health reasons, of my own free will, I just don't like coercion and propaganda being aimed at me. I also don't like industrial farming in general, for environmental and food quality reasons, I know it's necessary for large populations, but I'm not a big fan of those either to be honest.

I can see meat, or at least red meat becoming the preserve of the wealthy while the rest of use have to make do with lab-grown alternatives or like somebody said some kind of fungi protein.

I'd like to see the world return to perma-culture and local production, but politicians and the wealthy need taxpayers and consumers, so we probably are moving into the era of 'meat for the elite'

Grow or source your own if you have genuine concerns. It's easy to rear your own poultry etc or source food locally. I can buy foods locally which are cheaper and much healthier than much of the mass produced muck sold in supermarkets as food. So no I believe meat or other locally sourced foodstuffs will ever be for an 'elite'.

qwerty ui op

gozunda wrote: »

So because the usual amount of silly posts from eejits as per normal AH your going to engage in a programme of hyperbole and bs. Nothing like going on blatant an anti farming rant for no reason other than to derail the thread :rolleyes:

How do manage to get so much wrong in so few words.

Can you be more specific about my "hyperbole and bs" can you even point to anything I've said that you disagreed with. It's not anti- farming I'm just saying how things are done so people get to eat their "tasty tasty burger"

Transportation-

If you ever go into a field with young beef cattle chances are you won't be able get close to them, they'll run off like deer if you try.

Do people ever wounder how the farmer and truck driver get to wild animals up the steep ramp of the truck for transportation.

Here's a clue - go to the front off the truck you'll probably see a few black pipes on the dash

again this isn't cruelty

Cruelty is when someone tries to take cattle to the mart in a trailer with a rotten floor and they go down trough the floor on route.

Water John

qwerty, you really are writing nonsense. If any farmer tried to calve a cow as you suggest, would be jailed and rightly so, outside at all of the economic madness of a dead cow and calf.

Buford T. Justice XIX

qwerty ui op wrote: »

How do manage to get so much wrong in so few words.

Can you be more specific about my "hyperbole and bs" can you even point to anything I've said that you disagreed with. It's not anti- farming I'm just saying how things are done so people get to eat their "tasty tasty burger"

Transportation-

If you ever go into a field with young beef cattle chances are you won't be able get close to them, they'll run off like deer if you try.

Do people ever wounder how the farmer and truck driver get to wild animals up the steep ramp of the truck for transportation.

Here's a clue - go to the front off the truck you'll probably see a few black pipes on the dash

There's an amazing new invention out there to help with this.
[IMG]http://www.gibneysteel.com/images/12 HG1-2.jpg[/IMG]

Blaizes

Water John wrote: »

The SNP MP on QT BBC1 last night made a good point. Pastureland meat production is a good way of sequestering carbon in the soil.
It was strange that the mad Brexiteer on the panel was looking for high food standards also.
This no meat argument is again a simplistic solution.

On food miles, our meat going to the UK or Europe is a short journey. The last apple I ate came from New Zealand.

Madness isn't it when you really think about it apples from New Zealand coming to Ireland. A quick google search shows we import 95% of our apples.That's a staggering amount of imported apples and surely would be better if we could grow more here.

Seanachai

gozunda wrote: »

Grow or source your own if you have genuine concerns. It's easy to rear your own poultry etc or source food locally. I can buy foods locally which are cheaper and much healthier than much of the mass produced muck sold in supermarkets as food. So no I believe meat will ever be for an 'elite'.

I'm 100% for permaculture and growing at home, this isn't possible for a lot of people though. It's great if you've got your little plot in rural or semi-rural Ireland, but with projected population increases this may become even less feasible for the rest. Maybe towns and cities will develop some type of garden system, they might have to if peak oil reduces imports.

Dakotabigone

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm 100% for permaculture and growing at home, this isn't possible for a lot of people though. It's great if you've got your little plot in rural or semi-rural Ireland, but with projected population increases this may become even less feasible for the rest. Maybe towns and cities will develop some type of garden system, they might have to if peak oil reduces imports.

One square foot and you can raise a hen. Free range too. Have you any corner of a bedroom free?

Seanachai

Dakotabigone wrote: »

One square foot and you can raise a hen. Free range too. Have you any corner of a bedroom free?

I'm not even allowed to have a cat, I think the poultry might really blow the landlord's mind altogether :P.

whisky_galore

qwerty ui op wrote: »

agreed

What farmer in his right mind would do that? Qwerty you are clueless about farming, really you are.

Dakotabigone

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not even allowed to have a cat, I think the poultry might really blow the landlord's mind altogether :P.

I know a couple in Dublin that are raising two hens in a 800x800 shower enclosure.

Wanderer78

Dakotabigone wrote: »

I know a couple in Dublin that are raising two hens in a 800x800 shower enclosure.

poor hens

JupiterKid

I'll join the war on meat...



...just after I've had a big juicy 10z sirloin steak and a full Irish.

Life is just not worth living without bacon.

ManOfMystery

I love steak, love burgers, chicken, etc. Probably eat some form of meat most days of the week either for lunch and/or dinner. Bacon on everything please.

But I was listening a few months ago to the radio and there was a great discussion about the dog markets in Vietnam and China - e.g. the Yulin Dog Meat festival - where they kill the dogs (usually brutally as they believe the meat is better if the animal is terrified beforehand). And like most listeners and those engaged in the discussion, we were somewhat horrified at the thought of man's best friend being put through something like this.

Then one of the hosts asked, what really is the difference between this and a lamb skipping through an Irish field which will eventually end up on someone's plate? Sure, the killing may be carried out more humanely, but in the end we will still be killing it for the enjoyment of eating - and not for the necessity of survival, like a starving hunter in the wild.

Since then it's really got me thinking about giving up meat. In recent years there have been more studies carried out which have made me question if animals are much more aware of things than we give them credit for, and it's starting to weigh on me how cruel our behaviour towards them is.

Combine that with the rise of things like the Impossible Burger (a vegan alternative which seems to narrow the gap in taste/texture between real and artificial meat even more) and perhaps the way forward is to reduce our meat consumption.

If every family in China decided to eat steak one night extra than usual, per week, that would put massive pressure on world meat production and supply.

Dakotabigone

Deleted User wrote: »

If every family in China decided to eat steak one night extra than usual, per week, that would put massive pressure on world meat production and supply.

They will get sick of eating rice sooner or later.

silverharp

Deleted User wrote: »

If every family in China decided to eat steak one night extra than usual, per week, that would put massive pressure on world meat production and supply.

is it true that if they all jumped up and down at the same time they would cause an earthquake? :pac:

gozunda

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I love steak, love burgers, chicken, etc. Probably eat some form of meat most days of the week either for lunch and/or dinner. Bacon on everything please.

But I was listening a few months ago to the radio and there was a great discussion about the dog markets in Vietnam and China - e.g. the Yulin Dog Meat festival - where they kill the dogs (usually brutally as they believe the meat is better if the animal is terrified beforehand). And like most listeners and those engaged in the discussion, we were somewhat horrified at the thought of man's best friend being put through something like this.

Then one of the hosts asked, what really is the difference between this and a lamb skipping through an Irish field which will eventually end up on someone's plate? Sure, the killing may be carried out more humanely, but in the end we will still be killing it for the enjoyment of eating - and not for the necessity of survival, like a starving hunter in the wild.

Since then it's really got me thinking about giving up meat. In recent years there have been more studies carried out which have made me question if animals are much more aware of things than we give them credit for, and it's starting to weigh on me how cruel our behaviour towards them is.

Combine that with the rise of things like the Impossible Burger (a vegan alternative which seems to narrow the gap in taste/texture between real and artificial meat even more) and perhaps the way forward is to reduce our meat consumption.

Because that's the old 'dog thou' argument beloved of vegans. I've seen the same thing written more than once tbh. There's just a couple of problems. Just because humans eat some types of meat - does not mean that all humans eat all types of meat.

Dog meat is **** meat and is largely an unregulated and run as back street operations. Most humans and other meat eaters do not consume other meateaters - this is a well recognised phenomen in biology. Some do and countries like the Philippines and Hong Kong have outlawed this practice due to issues with the transfer of such diseases as rabbies
etc. Ebola has also been listed as a risk factor.

So no boiling and eating Fido is not the same as rearing or slaughtering well looked after livestock in highly regulated conditions.

Those highly processed foodstuffs such as beyond meat etc are nothing more than highly marketed junk food. They do not equate to good quality and locally produced meat etc..

Seanachai

Deleted User wrote: »

If every family in China decided to eat steak one night extra than usual, per week, that would put massive pressure on world meat production and supply.

This is the crux of the debate about the world being able to technically house more people, but then the practicalities of feeding them comes into play.

gozunda

And here are our overlords who are pushing the 'Planet Health diet" (sic) and their 'war on meat'

"Globe-trotting billionaire behind campaign to save planet accused of blatant hypocrisy"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/globe-trotting-billionaire-behind-campaign-13872067?fbclid=IwAR11nyhF1B6S8ogkIbN7i5m_tFUdoVIoHR6HqXXZi8l1jVBIAZY8a518HDY

Dakotabigone

There won’t be a steak or a diesel Passat left in the country.