The war on meat

Seanachai

gozunda wrote: »

And these are our overlords pushing the 'Planet Health diet" (sic) and their 'war on meat'

"Globe-trotting billionaire behind campaign to save planet accused of blatant hypocrisy"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/globe-trotting-billionaire-behind-campaign-13872067?fbclid=IwAR11nyhF1B6S8ogkIbN7i5m_tFUdoVIoHR6HqXXZi8l1jVBIAZY8a518HDY

We need to summon the Crom-cruach to feed these people to it

eezipc

gozunda wrote: »

And here are our overlords who are pushing the 'Planet Health diet" (sic) and their 'war on meat'

"Globe-trotting billionaire behind campaign to save planet accused of blatant hypocrisy"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/globe-trotting-billionaire-behind-campaign-13872067?fbclid=IwAR11nyhF1B6S8ogkIbN7i5m_tFUdoVIoHR6HqXXZi8l1jVBIAZY8a518HDY

You are fighting a losing battle when you are using the tabloids to back up your argument.

gozunda

eezipc wrote: »

You are fighting a losing battle when you are using the tabloids to back up your argument.

No worse than that piece of fiction - the much publicised EAT "planetary health diet" report funded by billionaires telling us peasants what we should and shouldn't eat...

Grayson

gozunda wrote: »

Because that's the old 'dog thou' argument beloved of vegans. I've seen the same thing written more than once tbh. There's just a couple of problems. Just because humans eat some types of meat - does not mean that all humans eat all types of meat.

Dog meat is **** meat and is largely an unregulated and run as back street operations. Most humans and other meat eaters do not consume other meateaters - this is a well recognised phenomen in biology. Some do and countries like the Philippines and Hong Kong have outlawed this practice due to issues with the transfer of such diseases as rabbies
etc. Ebola has slso been listed as a risk factor.

So no boiling and eating Fido is not the same as rearing or slaughtering well looked after livestock in highly regulated conditions.

Those highly processed foodstuffs such as beyond meat etc are nothing more than highly marketed junk food. They do not equate to good quality and locally produced meat etc..

Humans will ear whatever type of meat they get their hands on. The reason that we tend to eat herbivores is that they are more docile. They tend not to attack back in the wild and they are easy to raise.

We eat loads of fish that are carnivores of some type.

So yes, killing and eating fido is the same. The only difference is that it's far easier to raise a cow/pig/sheep and we don't have an emotional attachment to their species. It's the same reason we don't eat horses here.

whisky_galore

Grayson wrote: »

Humans will ear whatever type of meat they get their hands on. The reason that we tend to eat herbivores is that they are more docile. They tend not to attack back in the wild and they are easy to raise.
.

You've never met a cross bull in a field.

There's herbivores in the wild that will not hesitate to mash a human.

gozunda

Grayson wrote: »

Humans will ear whatever type of meat they get their hands on. The reason that we tend to eat herbivores is that they are more docile. They tend not to attack back in the wild and they are easy to raise.
We eat loads of fish that are carnivores of some type. So yes, killing and eating fido is the same. The only difference is that it's far easier to raise a cow/pig/sheep and we don't have an emotional attachment to their species. It's the same reason we don't eat horses here.

Do we? Really? Rat anyone? You clearly have never handled real livestock if you believe they are more docile than Fido and friends. There are several academic papers on the phenomenon of meateaters natural aversion to eating other meateaters. Are there exceptions - yes there are. But that does not change the main facts. Whatever the stupid hyperbole used by some vegans to persuade us otherwise - well reared livestock do not equate to boiling and eating Fido.

Dannyriver

gozunda wrote: »

Do we? Really? Rat anyone? You clearly have never handled real livestock if you believe they are more docile than Fido and friends. There are several academic papers on the phenomenon of meateaters natural aversion to eating other meateaters. Are there exceptions - yes there are. But that does not change the main facts. Whatever the stupid hyperbole used by some vegans to persuade us otherwise - well reared livestock do not equate to boiling and eating Fido.

If Cows or pigs became common pets we d stop eating them. Fact.

gormdubhgorm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Interesting study published today in the Lancet that indicates that Western diets are totally unsustainable. It recommends essentially rationing red meat to 7g/day or half a meatball. Essentially a burger would become a once a month thing. Dairy will be a thing of the past as well and diets will essentially be plant based. This will be necessary to ensure the 10bn mouths will get enough calories.

With the rise of veganism, and even our very own taoiseach saying he's going to cut back on meat, will you be following his lead? Or is meat simply too tasty too pull back on? I'll find it hard myself tbh.

The other thing that might get us out of this bind is synthetic beef and dairy. Would you eat food grown in a lab? Seemingly most under 40s don't have a problem with synthetic dairy manufactured from GM yeast like beer, but would with beef. Hard to see where this all goes...

Is that why Trump is building the wall?
I am not bothered about what people think about meat eaters who actually eat meat.
I eat meat nearly everyday sensible portions. I am also happy with the natural vitimins, minerals, and nutrients it provides me.
I know those who not eat meat invariably have to take artificial supplements to make up for thier choices.
Plus I like the taste of it. First thing I go for on the plate.
I won't be alive by the time there is 10b people on the planet so I am not really bothered, if I am honest.
If there is danger to the planet by that stage and chnages have to made. It will focus minds.
Artificial meat? If it tasted the same as natural meat and had the same vitamins, nutrients and protein I would have no problem with it.
But you have to realise you would be putting farmers out of business, then what happens to thier land. It will more then likely be sold to commercial developments.
I know there are other alternatives to meat like marinated inscects like they eat in parts of asia.
I assume long after I am dead, Supermacs will have artificial meat burgers, or incest burgers. The culchies will want curry on them along with thier chips

MrMusician18

Dannyriver wrote: »

If Cows or pigs became common pets we d stop eating them. Fact.

Cows and pigs were often pets and were still eaten back in the day.

I love meat, eat it all the time, eat too much of it.
What gets me is this idea that the amount we eat now is normal. The Sunday dinner exists because it was an occasion. Sacrificial lambs (going back further obviously :P ) represented a huge sacrifice. It's really not that long ago though that the idea of meat with every meal 3-5 times a day would have been mad. We've subsidised food so much that while vegetables would still be cheaper it's easy to eat meat all the time on a not-massive income.

Dannyriver

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Cows and pigs were often pets and were still eaten back in the day.

'common pets'

qwerty ui op

Water John wrote: »

qwerty, you really are writing nonsense. If any farmer tried to calve a cow as you suggest, would be jailed and rightly so, outside at all of the economic madness of a dead cow and calf.

Are you and whiskey galore even reading what I said.
I said that, as an example cruelty in that specific area, I also said that the calving jack is very much the norm for difficult calving.
While it's not the norm, you do have stupid farmers and you do have cruel and uncaring farmers.

But leaving cruelty aside and back to the reality of calving and the calving jack.
When you see a cow calving on RTE you'll see a nice quiet cow, capable of having baby elephant, calving down a small calf onto a lovely bed of golden straw.
This tells people nothing about difficult calving- difficult calvings are part of meat production.

-inexperienced jack operators breaking the calfs legs are part of meat production
-farmers not spotting the cow and her calving down on the **** covered slats packed with the other cows is part of meat production
-a 5 star bull breaking into heifers, resulting in them carrying calves they haven't a hope of being able to push out is part of meat production
- Farmers trying to save money not callling the vet for a C section (€300+) resulting in both cow and calf dying or quiet often dead calf and cow can't stand up for months is all part of meat production


These are just a few everyday things under the heading of "calving",
what about all the other areas of concern
Weaning
dehorning
dosing
transportation
disease

Many people not from a farming background haven't the first clue about any of this, and they won't learn it from George lee

qwerty ui op

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

There's an amazing new invention out there to help with this.
[IMG]http://www.gibneysteel.com/images/12 HG1-2.jpg[/IMG]

So you got the cattle pinned in, now the part I was talking about, from the the pin up the ramp and into the truck.

Are you saying farmers and cattle dealers don't use sticks to get cattle to go up the shoot of a crush, to go into sheds, to go into trucks.?

Buford T. Justice XIX

qwerty ui op wrote: »

So you got the cattle pinned in, now the part I was talking about, from the the pin up the ramp and into the truck.

Are you saying farmers and cattle dealers don't use sticks to get cattle to go up the shoot of a crush, to go into sheds, to go into trucks.?

Well, as you close the gate behind the cattle in a circular yard, the cattle move along to the end of the yard and walk straight into the cattle lorry.


I don't know where you have been herding cattle but you won't find a stick being used in my yard to move cattle. It's counterproductive and unnecessary.



Same in any yard around here, animals are too valuable to be abusing them.


But that doesn't suit your narrative, though:rolleyes:

whisky_galore

qwerty ui op wrote: »

Are you and whiskey galore even reading what I said.
I said that, as an example cruelty in that specific area, I also said that the calving jack is very much the norm for difficult calving.
While it's not the norm, you do have stupid farmers and you do have cruel and uncaring farmers.

But leaving cruelty aside and back to the reality of calving and the calving jack.
When you see a cow calving on RTE you'll see a nice quiet cow, capable of having baby elephant, calving down a small calf onto a lovely bed of golden straw.
This tells people nothing about difficult calving- difficult calvings are part of meat production.

-inexperienced jack operators breaking the calfs legs are part of meat production
-farmers not spotting the cow and her calving down on the **** covered slats packed with the other cows is part of meat production
-a 5 star bull breaking into heifers, resulting in them carrying calves they haven't a hope of being able to push out is part of meat production
- Farmers trying to save money not callling the vet for a C section (€300+) resulting in both cow and calf dying or quiet often dead calf and cow can't stand up for months is all part of meat production


These are just a few everyday things under the heading of "calving",
what about all the other areas of concern
Weaning
dehorning
dosing
transportation
disease

Many people not from a farming background haven't the first clue about any of this, and they won't learn it from George lee

Will you ever **** off. Don't eat meat if you don't want to, fair enough. Don't come around here equating farm animals with humans or domestic pets, exaggerating, spreading falsehoods and generally looking down your nose and preaching to those who do choose to eat meat. Any farmer's harming their animals leading to injury or death don't stay in business very long.

'Holier than thou' bullcrap, no wonder your lot are so hated.

gozunda

whisky_galore wrote: »

Will you ever **** off. Don't eat meat if you don't want to, fair enough. Don't come around here equating farm animals with humans or domestic pets, exaggerating, spreading falsehoods and generally looking down your nose and preaching to those who do choose to eat meat. Any farmer's harming their animals leading to injury or death don't stay in business very long.

'Holier than thou' bullcrap, no wonder your lot are so hated.

Best to ignore tbh. Same has been attempting to derail the thread apparently because some eejits put up silly posts about liking "beefburgers'. Revenge style posting if you will ... :rolleyes:

Unearthly

whisky_galore wrote: »

Will you ever **** off. Don't eat meat if you don't want to, fair enough. Don't come around here equating farm animals with humans or domestic pets, exaggerating, spreading falsehoods and generally looking down your nose and preaching to those who do choose to eat meat. Any farmer's harming their animals leading to injury or death don't stay in business very long.

'Holier than thou' bullcrap, no wonder your lot are so hated.

Triggered :pac:

whisky_galore

Unearthly wrote: »

Triggered :pac:

Triggered my h*le.

Eat your nuts and whatever, don't preach to the rest of us.

Unearthly

whisky_galore wrote: »

Triggered my h*le.

In all seriousness, concentrate on issues such as Brexit which must be concerning right now for farmers. Sleepless nights

BeerWolf

wakka12 wrote: »

The most harmful effects are from people in the first world like you who can afford to eat lots of meat not the billions of asians living on a pot of rice daily

Anyway whenever I read threads like this on boards it just solidifies my view that the world is doomed to be destoryed by global warming. Nobody wants to make any changes to their lifestyle(even the most absolutely minimal changes, such as eating less meat) until it personally negatively effects them and by then itll be too late to reverse it

Yeah, it's all the fault of first worlders, completely void blame on all the deforestation by third world countries to make room for more people and crops, or places like China and India that massively pollute the environment...

Nope. It's the fault of Europe and the USA only. :rolleyes:

qwerty ui op

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Well, as you close the gate behind the cattle in a circular yard, the cattle move along to the end of the yard and walk straight into the cattle lorry.


I don't know where you have been herding cattle but you won't find a stick being used in my yard to move cattle. It's counterproductive and unnecessary.



Same in any yard around here, animals are too valuable to be abusing them.


But that doesn't suit your narrative, though:rolleyes:

What % of cattle whould you say are loaded from a circular yard?

You didn't answer my question about sticks

Former Observer

Became a vegetarian for ethical reasons almost ten years ago and have never looked back. Love to cook and only time I miss eating meat is Christmas. But hey, maybe people have different dietary needs. Personally I've never been healthier.

BUT it is important to listen to your conscience. Whatever your decision is, own it, and don't mask it behind smug ignorance (there are idiots on both sides: the 'I love my steak and don't care about anything else' crowd and the 'meat eaters are akin to pedophile crowd').

wakka12

BeerWolf wrote: »

Yeah, it's all the fault of first worlders, completely void blame on all the deforestation by third world countries to make room for more people and crops, or places like China and India that massively pollute the environment...

Nope. It's the fault of Europe and the USA only. :rolleyes:

The average westerner pollutes the environment far more than anyone in the developing world due ot how many resouces we consume. If you want to believe that China and India are solly to blame for their horrible pollution not because we order so many cheap imports from them then go ahead

Dannyriver

Former Observer wrote: »

Became a vegetarian for ethical reasons almost ten years ago and have never looked back. Love to cook and only time I miss eating meat is Christmas. But hey, maybe people have different dietary needs. Personally I've never been healthier.

BUT it is important to listen to your conscience. Whatever your decision is, own it, and don't mask it behind smug ignorance (there are idiots on both sides: the 'I love my steak and don't care about anything else' crowd and the 'meat eaters are akin to pedophile crowd').

Well said that man. someone screaming 'how dare you tell me what to do' is a reasonable barometer as to whether you are dealing with someone having a rational argument or one of the 'idiotic' kind.

topper75

You know those times when you absolutely staaaarving for some kale?

Yeah, me ****ing neither.

Dannyriver

topper75 wrote: »

You know those times when you absolutely staaaarving for some kale?

Yeah, me ****ing neither.

Devil's advocate warning

you know those times when you don't want to be slaughtered so someone can eat you...yeah me ****ing neither

Dakota Dan

Dannyriver wrote: »

Devil's advocate warning

you know those times when you don't want to be slaughtered so someone can eat you...yeah me ****ing neither

Since when are humans slaughtered for meat?

Dakotabigone

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Since when are humans slaughtered for meat?

You missed the sarcasm

Cockford Ollie

Why are people happy to kill plants for food but not animals?

James Brown

The problem is plants feel pain depending on your definition of awareness. But is it okay because they aren't as developed as animals? Is there an intelligence grading process? Is eating maggots or crickets okay, (not Buddy Holly)?

Buford T. Justice XIX

qwerty ui op wrote: »

What % of cattle whould you say are loaded from a circular yard?

You didn't answer my question about sticks

I don't know how many animals are moved with sticks or circular yards, I'm responsible for my stock and not someone elses stock. I load and handle my animals as stress free as possible both for my own sake and theirs.


Stressing animals during movement and handling has known risks for respiratory illnesses which I prefer to avoid and dark meat from bruising where animals are struck prior to slaughter and tougher meat where animals are stressed prior to slaughter. As we are paid on saleable meat yields, it doesn't make any sense to knowingly reduce the value of stock before slaughter.



Perhaps you should take the issue up with those you have knowledge of doing so.

Butcher Boy

just in the door after a hard days killing ,now for a nice feed of roast pork and apple sauce yum yum.

Dannyriver

Cockford Ollie wrote: »

Why are people happy to kill plants for food but not animals?

No central nervous system in plants

Fergalicious

Cockford Ollie wrote: »

Why are people happy to kill plants for food but not animals?

Agree. Will someone please think of the plants.

gozunda

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The problem is plants feel pain depending on your definition of awareness. But is it okay because they aren't as developed as animals? Is there an intelligence grading process? Is eating maggots or crickets okay, (not Buddy Holly)?

Ok so both animals and plants are by definition organisms which are alive. If someone has moral difficulties with killing and eating one - why not the other? Why the discrimination and disregard for one entire biological kingdom, who are ultimately essential to life on this planet? In fact is that not the essence of vegan defined specism - where species are discriminated because some judge them to be different and therefore free to exploit?

Fergalicious

Fergalicious wrote: »

Agree. Will someone please think of the plants.

*thinks of plants*

What now?

Buford T. Justice V

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I don't know how many animals are moved with sticks or circular yards, I'm responsible for my stock and not someone elses stock. I load and handle my animals as stress free as possible both for my own sake and theirs.


Stressing animals during movement and handling has known risks for respiratory illnesses which I prefer to avoid and dark meat from bruising where animals are struck prior to slaughter and tougher meat where animals are stressed prior to slaughter. As we are paid on saleable meat yields, it doesn't make any sense to knowingly reduce the value of stock before slaughter.



Perhaps you should take the issue up with those you have knowledge of doing so.

And here's me thinking you were a Sheriff

Dannyriver

gozunda wrote: »

Ok so both animals and plants are by definition organisms which are alive. If someone has moral difficulties with killing and eating one - why not the other? Why the discrimination and disregard for one entire biological kingdom, who are ultimately essential to life on this planet? In fact is that not the essence of vegan defined specism - where species are discriminated because some judge them to be different and therefore free to exploit?

I take it you re taking the piss yeah?

Unearthly

Dannyriver wrote: »

I take it you re taking the piss yeah?

He's a daily mirror reading farmer, it's hard to know

emaherx

Dannyriver wrote: »

I take it you re taking the piss yeah?

I'm sure he is. But there is a point that every vegan avoids, it's OK to poison insects (sentiant creatures) to grow their food but not OK to eat meat.

The extinction of the bee will kill us all long before carbon emissions do!

gozunda

Dannyriver wrote: »

I take it you re taking the piss yeah?

Nope. Is it you can't answer that conundrum?

gozunda

Unearthly wrote: »

He's a daily mirror reading farmer, it's hard to know

This from a poster who apparently believes in the EAT fairy tale "Planetary Health diet" (sic) report. The irony is exquisite.

Was it the message that the EAT report is a pile of manure that you didn't like or do you just prefer to shoot the messengers?

Here's some more opinion for you to take aim at ...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/does-lancet-want-to-hand-control-of-our-diets-to-the-state/

https://www.continentaltelegraph.com/food/eat-lancet-report-on-food-supply-incorrect-as-it-starts-from-the-wrong-premises/

Donnielighto

Meat control doesn't matter. It's a stopgap. Population growth needs to be curbed or there will be wars.

I think outlook is bleak beyond 2050/2060

Dakota Dan

Donnielighto wrote: »

Meat control doesn't matter. It's a stopgap. Population growth needs to be curbed or there will be wars.

I think outlook is bleak beyond 2050/2060

Well if there will be wars that will take care of population growth, so how is the outlook bleak!

Dannyriver

gozunda wrote: »

Nope. Is it you can't answer that conundrum?

Really? Ok fair enough. Plants don t have a nervous system therefore they don t feel pain.

Dannyriver

Donnielighto wrote: »

Meat control doesn't matter. It's a stopgap. Population growth needs to be curbed or there will be wars.

I think outlook is bleak beyond 2050/2060

Both matter.

Dakota Dan

Another link with a lot of facts.

https://climateandcapitalism.com/2018/06/26/why-avoiding-meat-and-dairy-wont-save-the-planet/

gozunda

Dannyriver wrote: »

Really? Ok fair enough. Plants don t have a nervous system therefore they don t feel pain.

Yet plants are organisms and are alive the same as any other organism on the planet.

It's acknowledged plants do feel pain just not the way we do.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109-plants-can-see-hear-and-smell-and-respond

They are different certainly. But to refuse to acknowledge those difference is the essence of specism - something which vegans accuse omnivores of. I see double standards there tbh

Your proposition would also suggest that something which is dead or whose central nervous system is inactive would be ok to eat. Is that the case?

Dannyriver

Dannyriver wrote: »

Really? Ok fair enough. Plants don t have a nervous system therefore they don t feel pain.

They're very clever though. If a group of trees are attacked in some way, by disease or something else, they have a communication system and can alter their growth pattern to try and preserve themselves where possible.

I don't have a link right now but it's widely recognised.

Dannyriver

Deleted User wrote: »

They're very clever though. If a group of trees are attacked in some way, by disease or something else, they have a communication system and can alter their growth pattern to try and preserve themselves where possible.

I don't have a link right now but it's widely recognised.

I know that but intelligence of the type plants have and consciousness are entirely different things.