With ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers, is it worth buying EV?

Andy From Sligo

Steve wrote: »

A standard domestic 13A socket can supply 2990W, just under 3kW. It's not just law but is all that it can physically deliver without being a fire risk.

ah right thanks , I thought it was around the 3kw mark .

JPA

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

on the subject of street chargers and how you have to apply/register for a card and wait for it to come in the post I am just thinking say if you are miles away from the Dealership ... but you see a nice EV for sale and want to drive it home how can you if you need to charge it up on the route home on street chargers and haven't got a card or card yet? - what happens then?

Its a shame the dealers haven't got a temporary card they can give you even if its valid for something like 48hours to get you out of trouble until you get your own street-charger card .... or can they?

You can just ring ecars and they will activate/start the charge for you. Or sometimes any RFID card will work.

Andy From Sligo

JPA wrote: »

You can just ring ecars and they will activate/start the charge for you. Or sometimes any RFID card will work.

ooh thats good to know, thanks. I was wondering if there would be another way rather than wait for a card.

Gumbo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

on the subject of street chargers and how you have to apply/register for a card and wait for it to come in the post I am just thinking say if you are miles away from the Dealership ... but you see a nice EV for sale and want to drive it home how can you if you need to charge it up on the route home on street chargers and haven't got a card or card yet? - what happens then?

Its a shame the dealers haven't got a temporary card they can give you even if its valid for something like 48hours to get you out of trouble until you get your own street-charger card .... or can they?

24/7 number

(01) 258 3799

Simples

Andy From Sligo

just been watching a youtube vid, guy in UK lent a car to test drive for 7 days by his dealer. - Topped up his charge in Milton Keynes by chargemaster...



and have to top up by £20 a go

Could a system like this be coming to Ireland do you think?

DrPhilG

Ionity will likely be the first major paid fast charging operator and they're charging €8 for a charge, can't remember if it's time restricted.

Expect the dumbasses at eCars to charge more, potentially a scandalous amount but hopefully they learned a lesson from their last attempt.

Andy From Sligo

oh God, hopefully these companies will be held with some kind of control or ombudsman to reel them in if they get too extortionate ...

otherwise we could always take to the street like the water charges and get them abolished

If we get to a tiered stage where companies start charging lots but other are free to charge then people are going to block up all the free charging points!

how a bout a scheme of charging business users but keeping it free for general public use - could that kind of scheme work?

Also it just dawned on me (only this evening) when you have an ICE car and you want to fill it up with petrol nearly all stations have a large canopy over them so your not being rained upon when filling up your tank with petrol. - when you use a street charger there are no canopies and there is quite a few seconds of when you plug the type 2 charger into your vehicles socket before it commences charging and its good to stick with it to make sure it starts charging before you go off (to wherever you are going off too), so you could end up soaked if its lashing down

liamog

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ionity will likely be the first major paid fast charging operator and they're charging €8 for a charge, can't remember if it's time restricted.

Expect the dumbasses at eCars to charge more, potentially a scandalous amount but hopefully they learned a lesson from their last attempt.

Well lets hope that eCars follow the model of one of the other european operators. Such as this company that's operating chargers in Greater London
https://www.esb-evsolutions.co.uk/home#our-pricing

BigAl81

liamog wrote:

Well lets hope that eCars follow the model of one of the other european operators. Such as this company that's operating chargers in Greater London

I'd be very happy with that, about 50% more than the standard domestic day rate is the sweet spot I think.

It's expensive enough to push the locals to charge at home, but not overly expensive that would put you off using it when you need one.

samih

BigAl81 wrote: »

I'd be very happy with that, about 50% more than the standard domestic day rate is the sweet spot I think.

It's expensive enough to push the locals to charge at home, but not overly expensive that would put you off using it when you need one.

I would prefer per minute charging. The per unit charging doesn't have any penalty parking for hours to get that last 5 percent of charge. The slower your car charges the cheaper it will be to stay plugged in. In reality the real expense of charging is the time it takes. If you can serve 6 cars per hour for 10 minutes each to get them home is much better than somebody plugging in their eTron PHEV charging at 3 kW for 2 hours.

Benny Biscotti

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

just been watching a youtube vid, guy in UK lent a car to test drive for 7 days by his dealer. - Topped up his charge in Milton Keynes by chargemaster...



and have to top up by £20 a go

Could a system like this be coming to Ireland do you think?

Absolutely. Do people really think that the government won't let companies bring in the revenue that petrol did? It's only going to be cheaper until it's the norm to have an EV. Then I imagine people will be spending similar annually as they did with petrol cars.

unkel

I'd have no problem with €0.60 per kWh plus €0.60 per minute. No more queues ever :cool:

slave1

I don't use public chargers often, maybe once every two months but I think the move to start charging will have a big negative impact, there are still lots of folks without home charging capability.
If the Gov really wanted EVs to succeed they should follow model countries and in addition to VRT grant make them VAT exempt and allow use of bus lanes and free tolls, they haven't and the paltry effort on chargers speak volumes e.g. I'm preparing for an interview and checked the EPA filings of the company as they are building a new plant, near on 700 employees and they have TWO dedicated EV charge points on their approved application in 2018. So that's four charge spaces for probably peak (day shift) 450 employees, if they Gov were serious this should be at the 10%+ for a modern build for all new applications.

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

I
I'm preparing for an interview and checked the EPA filings of the company as they are building a new plant, near on 700 employees and they have TWO dedicated EV charge points on their approved application in 2018. So that's four charge spaces for probably peak (day shift) 450 employees, if they Gov were serious this should be at the 10%+ for a modern build for all new applications.

I thought it was in planning regulations already that any new apartment complex or workplace had to have an EV charging point or at the very least ducting in place to make it "easy" for owners to install a charge point and I thought there was reference to 10% as well.... must check where I saw that... maybe it was just a proposal and not enacted.

Alkers

slave1 wrote:

If the Gov really wanted EVs to succeed they should follow model countries and in addition to VRT grant make them VAT exempt and allow use of bus lanes and free tolls,

This would be a terrible terrible idea, in the grand scheme of things public transport is far far more of a priority than moving single occupancy vehicles from ICE to EV.

KCross

Simona1986 wrote: »

This would be a terrible terrible idea, in the grand scheme of things public transport is far far more of a priority than moving single occupancy vehicles from ICE to EV.

Its not a one or the other solution.

PT is only really useful in built up areas.

PT isnt much use in the suburbs or the rest of the countryside and its important to clean up our air around our schools, shops etc.

Basically, the investment needs a balance between public and private transport. I dont agree with bus lane use for EV's though.

slave1

KCross wrote: »

I thought it was in planning regulations already that any new apartment complex or workplace had to have an EV charging point or at the very least ducting in place to make it "easy" for owners to install a charge point and I thought there was reference to 10% as well.... must check where I saw that... maybe it was just a proposal and not enacted.

It could be, I don't know those regs, anyhow the plant is now complete and the submission was in late 2015 with the two charge points a mitigation factor on the traffic environmental factor.
Regarding ease of install charge points, I think the many lamp posts in car park will cover that clause

liamog

unkel wrote: »

I'd have no problem with €0.60 per kWh plus €0.60 per minute. No more queues ever :cool:

It would also solve a lot of planning headaches and grid issues, at those rates we wouldn't even need to install chargers anymore.

unkel

Haha, I'm only talking fast chargers here though - there needs to be a hefty premium for the privilege of using one without queuing (until we have adequate fast charging infrastructure, which is years away)

20 minutes + 20kWh = €24, which is dearer than petrol / diesel per km, but still far, far cheaper as long as 80-90% of your charging is not done on expensive public or private fast chargers.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

20 minutes + 20kWh = €24, which is dearer than petrol / diesel per km, but still far, far cheaper as long as 80-90% of your charging is not done on expensive public or private fast chargers.

You're crazy dude!

slave1

unkel wrote: »

Haha, I'm only talking fast chargers here though - there needs to be a hefty premium for the privilege of using one without queuing (until we have adequate fast charging infrastructure, which is years away)

20 minutes + 20kWh = €24, which is dearer than petrol / diesel per km, but still far, far cheaper as long as 80-90% of your charging is not done on expensive public or private fast chargers.

And demand will drop so they won't be economically viable so either they would have to introduce more sensible pricing or exit the market

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Haha, I'm only talking fast chargers here though - there needs to be a hefty premium for the privilege of using one without queuing (until we have adequate fast charging infrastructure, which is years away)

20 minutes + 20kWh = €24, which is dearer than petrol / diesel per km, but still far, far cheaper as long as 80-90% of your charging is not done on expensive public or private fast chargers.

This where I disagree with you. If there was a saving of even 5c per kW, there would be a rush to charge at home. Just think of the whole 'cheap tax' exodus from petrol to diesel.

liamog

Silent Running wrote: »

This where I disagree with you. If there was a saving of even 5c per kW, there would be a rush to charge at home. Just think of the whole 'cheap tax' exodus from petrol to diesel.

We've seen people talk about only charging in public to save €200 a year, despite having installed a home charger. I'd agree we'd end up with a massive reduction in usage just by making public rapids 5c/kWh over day rates.

Qrt

Simona1986 wrote: »

This would be a terrible terrible idea, in the grand scheme of things public transport is far far more of a priority than moving single occupancy vehicles from ICE to EV.

Exactly. As much as you want to dress it up, the EV is still a car, and the EV is still only as spatially efficient as the next ICE. While the EV will be great for air quality, traffic will stay the same, so compromising the integrity of bus lanes would be catastrophic, especially when one considers the aims of the BusConnects project...

unkel

liamog wrote: »

We've seen people talk about only charging in public to save €200 a year, despite having installed a home charger. I'd agree we'd end up with a massive reduction in usage just by making public rapids 5c/kWh over day rates.

Maybe. But we'd have to see if that works. We'll go with plan liamog and if that doesn't work and there are still queues at the fast charger, we'll go with plan unkel

slave1

Simona1986 wrote: »

This would be a terrible terrible idea, in the grand scheme of things public transport is far far more of a priority than moving single occupancy vehicles from ICE to EV.

Qrt wrote: »

Exactly. As much as you want to dress it up, the EV is still a car, and the EV is still only as spatially efficient as the next ICE. While the EV will be great for air quality, traffic will stay the same, so compromising the integrity of bus lanes would be catastrophic, especially when one considers the aims of the BusConnects project...

Agree on both points, I'm just pointing out that the best model for EV take up has free use of bus lanes, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with it....

Norway

No purchase/import taxes (1990-)
Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-)
No annual road tax (1996-)
No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997- 2017).
Charges were introduced on ferries with upper limit of maximum 50% of full price (2018-)
Charges on toll roads were introduced with upper limit of maximum 50% of full price (2019)
Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
Parking fee for EVs was introduced locally with an upper limit of maximum 50% of full price (2018-)
Access to bus lanes (2005-).
New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016)
50 % reduced company car tax (2000-2018).
Company car tax reduction was lowered to 40% (2018-)

Facts speak as Norway are destroying the ROW on EV uptake and now scaling out their incentives....

slave1

BTW Norway now have 10,000 publicly available charging points and more than 1,500 cars can fast-charge at the same time

ELM327

Norway bus lane exemptions are being phased out for BEV, only remain for Hydrogen Fool Cells.
Norway is the market to follow, over 50% of new cars had a plug last year. And a large number of BEVs

They charge approx 25c per minute for using a 50kW DC charger, and 35c per min for using a HPC (ie >50kW)
I woudl be in favour of this here too.
35c per minute works out at approx €8.50 to charge my Ioniq at a 150KW charger.