Some Zoe questions

Andy From Sligo

Hello . I hope you dont mind but I have a few outstanding unanswered questions about the renault zoe that I wonder if some owners or the people that know could answer if you dont mind at all. - the zoe's we have been looking at is a used ones around 2013 year located in northern ireland because they seem a lot cheaper up there for used ones and i think they are exempt from VRT.

I thought it would be st to make just one thread and ask all the qustions in one go rather than making loads of seperate threads on the EV group.

1.) if the batteries end up worn out , or no longer charge/hold charge I presume you get them changed at the renult main dealer but who foots the bill and if the owner pays are they then hugely expensive?

2.) whats the chances of a used one coming with the 2 Granny cables the 13a 3 pin plug one and the street charging one? - I have read that if you have to buy the 13a plug one it could be 500euro for an official Renault one or around 200euro for a non-official one?

3.) what tyres does the Zoe take are they run of the mill low profile ones , or expensive one just for the Zoe?

4.) does a spare wheel come in the boot for a Zoe?

5.) Can the air con be turned off in the zoe and just have normal heat/cold coming out of the vents ?

6.) the brake pads and shoes, do they share with any other Renault (say like Clio) and be got hold of easily enough (even like at hafords or a motor factors) for reasonable prices or are they anything special ?

7.) the screen panel on the dash, does that have reversing camera and sat nav and is it touchscreen or not.

8.) how do they handle in the snow/ice? do they just handle like other automatics? - Its been years since I have driven an automatic car , but normally in the 5 speed manual ones I select high gear and use the engine as a brake in the snow. How would you work it in the Zoe or is the torque such that they are good in the snow?

9.) are there any heated seats or heated steering wheel in these Zoe's? - I think the Nissan leaf have them I'm not sure .

10.) if you are driving along and the battery is near to the end do you get an audable alert and if it does be near to empty do they just stop altogether or do they just slow down so you can at least pull over?

Sorry for all the questions. I know most probably a lot of the questions could be answered if we took one out for a test drive but we are in Sligo and the ones we have been looking at are up in Belfast so a bit far to travel just to have a test drive. Anyway I think someone who has had them for a while would have a better idea rather than just taking one out for a test drive .

If its OK I might ask some more questions on this thread as I think about them.

Many thanks for all help and opinions gratefully appreciated. I am trying to get as much info as possible. Review websites tend to be a bit biased most of the time or dont touch on the questions I need answering.

Thank you.

slave1

(Respectfully) Pick up the phone to Renault Ireland or UK or your nearest dealer for majority of those answers and/or brochure request

Andy From Sligo

slave1 wrote: »

(Respectfully) Pick up the phone to Renault Ireland or UK or your nearest dealer for majority of those answers and/or brochure request

or hopefully maybe a nice helpful Zoe owner or someone with Knowledge of them might have just 5-10 minutes to sit down and answer my questions on here

- i know if I had one and someone was asking questions I would like to help out where I can

Cilar

- There is a 5-year warranty on the batteries if you own the battery (Renault replaces it if it goes below 70%), or a lifetime warranty if you rent the batteries (Renault replaces it if it goes below 75%).
- No spare wheel but a puncture kit in the car.
- Used cars generally come with the on-street charging cable, as that was the cable that came with the car originally when bought now. No granny cable, as new cars don't come with it. electricautos.ie sell granny cable for around 300 euros, with a small discount if you buy a car with them.
- Sat nav / reversing camera are available. Touch screen.

Andy From Sligo

Cilar wrote: »

- There is a 5-year warranty on the batteries if you own the battery (Renault replaces it if it goes below 70%), or a lifetime warranty if you rent the batteries (Renault replaces it if it goes below 75%).
- No spare wheel but a puncture kit in the car.
- Used cars generally come with the on-street charging cable, as that was the cable that came with the car originally when bought now. No granny cable, as new cars don't come with it. electricautos.ie sell granny cable for around 300 euros, with a small discount if you buy a car with them.
- Sat nav / reversing camera are available. Touch screen.

That's helpful - thanks very much for taking time to reply

RangeR

1.) 5 year warranty.

2.) New Zoe only comes with one Type 2 on street cable

4.) No spare wheel

5.) Of course. Full AC, hot and cold. However, when ECO mode is on, you won't get much heat out of it depending on your usage. It will stop you from getting too cold but that's about it. Turn ECO mode off and you get full heat at the cost of higher energy output.

7.) Reverse camera and touch screen. Built in Tom Tom Sat Nav and a 1 or 2 year license. Reverse camera gets very dirty very often. It's pointed down at about 45% angle, just over the rear number plate.

8.) EV's are not like ICE automatics. There are no gears. It's just a motor. It goes from slow to fast depending on how far you press the accelerator. There is one "gear".... Go.

9.) Independent heated seats on both passenger and driver with 3 heat settings per side.

10.) I don't remember getting audible alerts. On one occasion I got home with about 3% to 5% remaining. The car drove normally. The dashboard does change colour under certain circumstances. Green is ECO on, blue is ECO off. There's a purple for something. May even be a red, not sure. However, the TomTom Sat Nav will tell you if you have enough power to get to where you are going, if you enter a route. It even has a circle range that it can draw on the map. Meaning, you can get to any point in that circle [directly] on the current charge.

Bonus : It has Android Auto [and the apple equivalent]. It's very nice.

Andy From Sligo

RangeR wrote: »

1.) 5 year warranty.

2.) New Zoe only comes with one Type 2 on street cable

4.) No spare wheel

5.) Of course. Full AC, hot and cold. However, when ECO mode is on, you won't get much heat out of it depending on your usage. It will stop you from getting too cold but that's about it. Turn ECO mode off and you get full heat at the cost of higher energy output.

7.) Reverse camera and touch screen. Built in Tom Tom Sat Nav and a 1 or 2 year license. Reverse camera gets very dirty very often. It's pointed down at about 45% angle, just over the rear number plate.

8.) EV's are not like ICE automatics. There are no gears. It's just a motor. It goes from slow to fast depending on how far you press the accelerator. There is one "gear".... Go.

9.) Independent heated seats on both passenger and driver with 3 heat settings per side.

10.) I don't remember getting audible alerts. On one occasion I got home with about 3% to 5% remaining. The car drove normally. The dashboard does change colour under certain circumstances. Green is ECO on, blue is ECO off. There's a purple for something. May even be a red, not sure. However, the TomTom Sat Nav will tell you if you have enough power to get to where you are going, if you enter a route. It even has a circle range that it can draw on the map. Meaning, you can get to any point in that circle [directly] on the current charge.

Bonus : It has Android Auto [and the apple equivalent]. It's very nice.

fantastic , thanks for all that information thats brilliant . The more I hear about these gadgety things the more I want one.

Andy From Sligo

so, never having an electric car before if I use the onstreet chargers the only thing I am confused about is that I have to get an ESB card is that right? - so the confusing bit, are all street chargers and public chargers owned by ESB or accept the ESB card then? - there's no like competitors?

So I apply for a ESB public charger card and then swipe that on any public charger in Ireland no matter where they are situated or who owns them (say if I wanted to charge up outside a LIDL store say whilst I am getting a few bits and pieces and just top up the charge ... the ESB card will work on that?

And the Zoe will use all public chargers in Ireland even the fast charge ones even though its a 2013 Zoe and fast chargers may not have been out then? - or would I have to just use certain standard chargers for a zoe of that age or do you just plug in the Zoe and the street charger is clever and adjusts the charging accordingly to the car that is connected?

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so, never having an electric car before if I use the onstreet chargers the only thing I am confused about is that I have to get an ESB card is that right? - so the confusing bit, are all street chargers and public chargers owned by ESB or accept the ESB card then? - there's no like competitors?

Yes, currently all Public chargers are ESB owned though all funded by the taxpayer and some fast chargers funded by the E.U.

This is set to change in 2019 as Ionity begin installing chargers , though sadly, the first were supposed to be up and running by the end of 2018, it didn't happen, surprise surprise !

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

So I apply for a ESB public charger card and then swipe that on any public charger in Ireland no matter where they are situated or who owns them (say if I wanted to charge up outside a LIDL store say whilst I am getting a few bits and pieces and just top up the charge ... the ESB card will work on that?

I think you have to register for Lidl chargers which will give you a different swipe card. The ESB card will work only with ESb chargers.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

And the Zoe will use all public chargers in Ireland even the fast charge ones even though its a 2013 Zoe and fast chargers may not have been out then? - or would I have to just use certain standard chargers for a zoe of that age or do you just plug in the Zoe and the street charger is clever and adjusts the charging accordingly to the car that is connected?

Zoe has the best AC charger of any affordable EV currently available, The Model S with Dual 10 Kw chargers then followed by the 33 Kwh BMW i3 with 11 kw charger.

Zoe can charge at 22 Kw from the standard AC street charge points and will get from 0-90 odd % in an hour or a little less which to be honest won't be that much slower than fast charging especially in colder weather when the battery is cold, cold batteries charge a lot slower at 10 Deg C ( battery temp) than at 20 + Deg C and slower the colder it gets so AC at 22 kw especially in colder weather won't be much slower than fast charging. 22 AC is quite fast.

AC is definitely going to be highly useful to you if you get the Zoe.

Unfortunately the Zoe is a slow car with a 0-100 km/h of 12.3 seconds and above 100 km/h it does not have much power for over taking, maybe you can live with it.

Zoe can also use the fast chargers @44 Kw however no other EV uses fast AC and whether 44 Kw AC remains supported with new chargers remains to be seen.

On the + Zoe can charge at the fast charger the same time another EV is charging on DC , whether power gets divided or it's separate I do not know, perhaps another Zoe owner can confirm.

Best thing about Zoe is that wonderful 22 Kw AC charger because there are so many AC points around and in most decent towns, some chargers are 3 and 7 Kw and not obvious on the map because on the esb map all their AC chargers show 22 Kw ac but this is not correct, not all support 22 Kw AC.

The question is can you live with the battery lease ? it does not mean you will get a new battery if the capacity drops to 70% , Renault can if they want give you a new one or install a reconditioned one at their choosing.

Is the battery lease worth it on an older degraded battery ? I don't think so but it does have a great AC charger making longer distance driving a lot easier to live with.

I would be interested to hear what others think about the battery lease but you could get a 2016 30 kwh Leaf perhaps a little bit more expensive, nicer car and more power no battery lease, if you're borrowing money then the lease is meaningless anyway as it adds to the monthly payments so what's the point ? as I said you are not guaranteed a new battery and they might give you one with only 80% capacity which is perfectly acceptable to renault and they still charge you the same for the lease ? eah, not a chance.......

Look for a 30 kwh Leaf and 6.6 Kw charger, perhaps it came with the 6.6 Kw charger as standard on the 30 kwh I do not remember but it's a lot more convenient when charging at public AC chargers and cuts the time needed at fast chargers which are getting busier and busier.

There are plenty of 30 kwh leafs on Carzone 17-20 odd K

Get SVE spec and 6.6 Kw charger.

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, currently all Public chargers are ESB owned though all funded by the taxpayer and some fast chargers funded by the E.U.

This is set to change in 2019 as Ionity begin installing chargers , though sadly, the first were supposed to be up and running by the end of 2018, it didn't happen, surprise surprise !



I think you have to register for Lidl chargers which will give you a different swipe card. The ESB card will work only with ESb chargers.



Zoe has the best AC charger of any affordable EV currently available, The Model S with Dual 10 Kw chargers then followed by the 33 Kwh BMW i3 with 11 kw charger.

Zoe can charge at 22 Kw from the standard AC street charge points and will get from 0-90 odd % in an hour or a little less which to be honest won't be that much slower than fast charging especially in colder weather when the battery is cold, cold batteries charge a lot slower at 10 Deg C ( battery temp) than at 20 + Deg C and slower the colder it gets so AC at 22 kw especially in colder weather won't be much slower than fast charging. 22 AC is quite fast.

AC is definitely going to be highly useful to you if you get the Zoe.

Unfortunately the Zoe is a slow car with a 0-100 km/h of 12.3 seconds and above 100 km/h it does not have much power for over taking, maybe you can live with it.

Zoe can also use the fast chargers @44 Kw however no other EV uses fast AC and whether 44 Kw AC remains supported with new chargers remains to be seen.

On the + Zoe can charge at the fast charger the same time another EV is charging on DC , whether power gets divided or it's separate I do not know, perhaps another Zoe owner can confirm.

Best thing about Zoe is that wonderful 22 Kw AC charger because there are so many AC points around and in most decent towns, some chargers are 3 and 7 Kw and not obvious on the map because on the esb map all their AC chargers show 22 Kw ac but this is not correct, not all support 22 Kw AC.

The question is can you live with the battery lease ? it does not mean you will get a new battery if the capacity drops to 70% , Renault can if they want give you a new one or install a reconditioned one at their choosing.

Is the battery lease worth it on an older degraded battery ? I don't think so but it does have a great AC charger making longer distance driving a lot easier to live with.

I would be interested to hear what others think about the battery lease but you could get a 2016 30 kwh Leaf perhaps a little bit more expensive, nicer car and more power no battery lease, if you're borrowing money then the lease is meaningless anyway as it adds to the monthly payments so what's the point ? as I said you are not guaranteed a new battery and they might give you one with only 80% capacity which is perfectly acceptable to renault and they still charge you the same for the lease ? eah, not a chance.......

Look for a 30 kwh Leaf and 6.6 Kw charger, perhaps it came with the 6.6 Kw charger as standard on the 30 kwh I do not remember but it's a lot more convenient when charging at public AC chargers and cuts the time needed at fast chargers which are getting busier and busier.

There are plenty of 30 kwh leafs on Carzone 17-20 odd K

Get SVE spec and 6.6 Kw charger.

thanks ever so much for the exhaustive reply - great information there I am getting more knowledgeable by the minute.

Damn that battery rental, but It does seem to make the USED Zoé's a lot more affordable . The wife reckons the Leaf is bigger car on the outside than a Zoe (is it though really) and too much out of price range the leaf (we have to get a CU Loan) - so i think it will have to be a Zoe and not a leaf or another EV if we go down that road - I suppose if we are strict the money that was put to petrol will have to be put aside for battery rental instead.

I know what you mean about overtaking at 60mph because she had a 16v 2003 Clio before , and now she has a 8v Clio 2002 and she feels thats got no poke in it really when it gets to around 55mph and has learned not to chance overtaking unless she feels really comfortable about it - so i suppose it will feel the same in an under-powered Zoe then .

Re street chargers: I wonder if it will get to a stage maybe the ESB chargers might still be free for a period in 2019 but the Ionity ones you will have to pay at, or maybe they will all charge but at different prices. What do you reckon.

Gumbo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Re street chargers: I wonder if it will get to a stage maybe the ESB chargers might still be free for a period in 2019 but the Ionity ones you will have to pay at, or maybe they will all charge but at different prices. What do you reckon.

The street chargers are slow chargers. You still have to pay for parking.
There is no benefit to them unless you are there for a couple of hours outside of pa and display times.

Why is the reliance on street chargers in the calculation?

Andy From Sligo

kceire wrote: »

The street chargers are slow chargers. You still have to pay for parking.
There is no benefit to them unless you are there for a couple of hours outside of pa and display times.

Why is the reliance on street chargers in the calculation?

Only one reliance at the moment is that the car would only come with street cable and to get the 13a 3 pin plug granny cable the cheapest I have seen is 350eur and that's not official and been reading that the Zoe sometimes is a bit temperamental on non official granny cables.

And no charging socket outside the house. I hear there is a grant to get them put in for the first 2000 of owners or something but even then that takes some time to get them installed . So first getting the car we would have to rely on street charger I reckon. No other way. I though there was quite a lot of fast street chargers out there on the streets now in Ireland and that nearly all of the slow ones were being replaced and that you could charge up to 80% in under an hour or 40 mins no?

gizmo555

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I hear there is a grant to get them put in for the first 2000 of owners or something but even then that takes some time to get them installed .

That grant ended a little over a year ago. The current scheme pays €600 - about 2/3 to 1/2 of the costs, depending on what you go for.

https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/electric-vehicle-home-charger-grant/

Gumbo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Only one reliance at the moment is that the car would only come with street cable and to get the 13a 3 pin plug granny cable the cheapest I have seen is 350eur and that's not official and been reading that the Zoe sometimes is a bit temperamental on non official granny cables.

And no charging socket outside the house. I hear there is a grant to get them put in for the first 2000 of owners or something but even then that takes some time to get them installed . So first getting the car we would have to rely on street charger I reckon. No other way. I though there was quite a lot of fast street chargers out there on the streets now in Ireland and that nearly all of the slow ones were being replaced and that you could charge up to 80% in under an hour or 40 mins no?

How will you charge the car at home?
Charger grant that you mention has ended.

There is now an open ended €600 grant for home charger installs.

Andy From Sligo

kceire wrote: »

How will you charge the car at home?
Charger grant that you mention has ended.

There is now an open ended €600 grant for home charger installs.

so much for them updating the websites then I suppose. I think i saw about the grant on the SEAI page so that hasnt been updated then and another couple of sites.

Ah well if thats the case I would have to get a 13a 3 pin granny cable and bring it in through window or drill a hole through wall or put one of those waterproof outdoor 13a sockets then .

I'm quite surprised really, the takeup of EV in ireland still I would say is not brilliant but here you still have that street chargers soon are not to be free any more, the full grant for the house charger has stopped (or been reduced) and still a 120eur per year vehicle tax (not free vehicle tax as in other countries with an EV) - its not really going to help with pushing sales / ownership when all these incentives are adjusted like that I dont think in getting more people to cross over to electric vehicles

Gumbo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so much for them updating the websites then I suppose. I think i saw about the grant on the SEAI page so that hasnt been updated then and another couple of sites.

https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/electric-vehicle-home-charger-grant/

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Ah well if thats the case I would have to get a 13a 3 pin granny cable and bring it in through window or drill a hole through wall or put one of those waterproof outdoor 13a sockets then .

Do you have a front garden with parking?
Just run the granny cable to the car using an outdoor socket and charge over night. 100% battery every morning.

Get a night rate meter to make it even cheaper.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I'm quite surprised really, the takeup of EV in ireland still I would say is not brilliant but here you still have that street chargers soon are not to be free any more, the full grant for the house charger has stopped (or been reduced) and still a 120eur per year vehicle tax (not free vehicle tax as in other countries with an EV) - its not really going to help with pushing sales / ownership when all these incentives are adjusted like that I dont think in getting more people to cross over to electric vehicles

Sound like you are 50/50 on getting an EV. Are you sure you are ready for the EV?
Street chargers are a bonus, not a necessity.
€600 grant for a charger is very good and in some cases can cover the complete cost of supplying ( a second hand unit and fitting).
€120 motor tax per year is nothing.

Andy From Sligo

kceire wrote: »

...Do you have a front garden with parking?
Just run the granny cable to the car using an outdoor socket and charge over night. 100% battery every morning.

Get a night rate meter to make it even cheaper. ....

yep, can pull the car right up to the house luckily enough

yes night rate the way to go it seems , still savings to be had even after the night rate meter standing charge I suppose.

wife gets home from work sometimes around 4pm so would most probably plug it in then, but of course the night rate meters run from 11pm to 8am or something isnt it.

gizmo555

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

wife gets home from work sometimes around 4pm so would most probably plug it in then, but of course the night rate meters run from 11pm to 8am or something isnt it.

The car has a charging timer you can set so that even though it's plugged in, it won't start charging until the night rate is on.

(It's 11pm to 8am now, but 12am to 9am summer time.)

Andy From Sligo

kceire wrote: »

..

Sound like you are 50/50 on getting an EV. Are you sure you are ready for the EV?
....

.

I'm about 80/20 in favour of getting an EV - but she tells me today she has seen a nice toyota celiac or whatever they are called up north for around 5 grand (UK£) 2015 65mpg and likes the look of that one

I shall keep rooting for the Zoe EV lol even though it wont be me paying back the credit union loan

6 things putting her off today now on EV (she keeps changing her mind)

1.) what if she is out and about and the battery runs down
2.) not impressed when I told her have to by a differnt cable to charge from home and that the cheapest it would be is from 350euro
3.) someone had posted that a charger was out of action in town so they had to drive to another charger
4.) read that someone with a 2015 Zoe could only get about 80km on a full charge every time (I said maybe there something up with battery or they had all the eelctrics on maybe)
5.) dont like the idea of 'faffing about' plugging in when she goes shopping, just wants to go in do her shopping and leave. Not wanting to wait around for car to charge up or wait until someone else's car has finished charging (I explained that if we got the granny cable most of the time it could be charged at home)
6.) just told her today there are no full grants to get a home charger put in any more.

I am running out of positives at the moment , and (to her) there are too many negatives outweighing so I dunno whether I will loose the battle and she will just stick with what she knows and go for a used ICE car.

Things she likes the sound of Zoe EV:

1,) you can pre-heat it (hates getting into cold car in morning and wait for windows to defrost)
2.) the low vehicle tax rate per year
3.) no VRT to pay if we got from up northern ireland

those are the 2 main things

unkel

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I'm about 80/20 in favour of getting an EV - but she tells me today she has seen a nice toyota celiac or whatever they are called up north for around 5 grand (UK£) 2015 65mpg and likes the look of that one

For the price of that landed here incl VRT, taking into account one year's difference in motor tax and one years fuel, you would have yourself a very decent 2015 Leaf (no battery lease)...

Andy From Sligo

gizmo555 wrote: »

The car has a charging timer you can set so that even though it's plugged in, it won't start charging until the night rate is on.

(It's 11pm to 8am now, but 12am to 9am summer time.)

thats good, but i would say she would most probably want to plug it in when she got straight home so that the battery is always topped up (paranoia of the battery running down)

Andy From Sligo

unkel wrote: »

For the price of that landed here incl VRT, taking into account one year's difference in motor tax and one years fuel, you would have yourself a very decent 2015 Leaf (no battery lease)...

bigger outlay at the beginning though. can get a 2013 Zoe @5grand (UK£) up NI and cheapest i can see LEAF 11grand (UK£) for 2015 Leaf

DrPhilG

I sold my 141 top spec Leaf last October for just under €10k.

Shop around and speak to Phil in Electric Autos.

unkel

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

bigger outlay at the beginning though

No it isn't. £5k plus €5k VRT for a 2015 Celica 1.8 petrol (I just looked it up on the VRT calculator for you) plus €636 tax is well over €11k

This will roughly buy you a 151 Leaf privately

Andy From Sligo

unkel wrote: »

No it isn't. £5k plus €5k VRT for a 2015 Celica 1.8 petrol (I just looked it up on the VRT calculator for you) plus €636 tax is well over €11k

This will roughly buy you a 151 Leaf privately

its not a Celica (sorry for confusion i wrongly called it a celiac because i couldnt pronounce it) no it was a Suzuki 1ltr Celerio 2015 the wife was also looking at from NI 5grand (UK£) - I dunno what the VRT would be on that , I havent looked on the VRT calaculator

DrPhilG

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I dunno what the VRT would be on that , I havent looked on the VRT calaculator

Then how do you know it would be in budget?

unkel

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

its not a Celica (sorry for confusion i wrongly called it a celiac because i couldnt pronounce it) no it was a Suzuki 1ltr Celerio 2015 the wife was also looking at from NI 5grand (UK£) - I dunno what the VRT would be on that , I havent looked on the VRT calaculator

€820

Andy From Sligo

DrPhilG wrote: »

Then how do you know it would be in budget?

I dont - I am actually trying to dissuade her from getting a ICE car from ip NI because I was saying that it would be liable to VRT even though they look cheaper up there - thats why i am trying to persuade her on getting an EV because no VRT to pay.

Andy From Sligo

unkel wrote: »

€820

ah right thanks for that. - not too bad i suppose - I kinda was guessing around the 500eur - 800eur mark but that was a guess because I never checked the VRT calculator

Andy From Sligo

you know normally cars with automatic transmission normally have P,R,N,D,1,2 ?

I was just wonder why the Zoe just has P,R,N,D on the selector? - anyone know? have done some searching but cannot find out why - and is it anything to be concerned about not having 1 & 2 on the selector? - I have only ever drove 5 gear manual transmission cars over the years, I have never had an automatic car before. Thanks.

unkel

1 and 2 is to manually stick an automatic box into a certain gear (for towing, hill descending, etc.)

EVs don't have gears (well not more than one), so you can not stick the box into a certain gear (that is different than the one the box would pick itself)