Best of all time

dulux99

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Much as it pains me to say it, I just can't see past Jon Jones in the GOAT discussion, I don't think his body of work can be equalled by any of the other contenders to the title at this point.

How though, given his repeated drug failures? Michelle Smith isn't considered a great Irish athlete because her drug failures. So many asterisks over Jon Jones career. Same with Anderson Silva for me.

Do people who are into cycling consider Lance Armstrong to be the best ever?

Given body of work and accomplishments it has to be GSP imo.

Fall_Guy

dulux99 wrote: »

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Much as it pains me to say it, I just can't see past Jon Jones in the GOAT discussion, I don't think his body of work can be equalled by any of the other contenders to the title at this point.

How though, given his repeated drug failures? Michelle Smith isn't considered a great Irish athlete because her drug failures. So many asterisks over Jon Jones career. Same with Anderson Silva for me.

Do people who are into cycling consider Lance Armstrong to be the best ever?

Given body of work and accomplishments it has to be GSP imo.

If Jones is a drugs cheat, I don't think the Armstrong comparison is a fair one as cycling is almost completely a battle of endurance and will.

The benefits of PEDs in MMA are less clear-cut, and PEDs are not what separated Jon Jones from every man he stepped in the cage with. He may be a drugs cheat, he may just be as careless and idiotic as his drinking and recreational drug taking in the lead up to fights in the past suggests, and paid little or no attention to the supplements he was putting into his body.

Either way, I think the names he has beaten and the way he has beaten them is far more impressive than GSP's notable victories.

Mellor

derfderf wrote: »

Prime Silva or GSP wouldn't look out of place at the top of their divisions these days, but I think most other Champions comfortably maul the the early day champions.

Silva, GSP and Aldo still belong in the top 3 discussion of each division. They aren't "current generation" but it's notable that all 3 are still potentially fighting. They bridge the two generations.

dulux99 wrote: »

Do people who are into cycling consider Lance Armstrong to be the best ever?

They probably should tbh. I don't think he got particular special treatment.

Ultimate Seduction

I hate the best ever hype myself but every fighter that's champ right now probably is the best ever.

Theres a strong argument for Goat talk with all of

Cromier, Jones, woodley, khabib, max, dillashaw , Nunez.

Last year Stipe, Cruz, Cyborg, Joanna were the goats. Such a new sport improving so fast.

evil_seed

MMA is still in it's infancy to call anyone a goat IMO. There's been era's where there's been undeniably great fighters. Pride Era - Fedor, Hendo; Early UFC ERA (just bleed!) - Randy, BJ, Hughes; Modern Era (multiple defences) - Silva, Stipe, DJ, Rousey, Aldo, GSP.
You could class any of these people as the GOAT, but it depends on what the criteria is. Game changer? Titles: number of defences/different weight classes? number of fights? Number of KO's? number of submissions? Number of wins? How many events they've headlined?
It's too difficult at this stage to pick just one IMO

magic_murph

evil_seed wrote: »

MMA is still in it's infancy to call anyone a goat IMO. There's been era's where there's been undeniably great fighters. Pride Era - Fedor, Hendo; Early UFC ERA (just bleed!) - Randy, BJ, Hughes; Modern Era (multiple defences) - Silva, Stipe, DJ, Rousey, Aldo, GSP.
You could class any of these people as the GOAT, but it depends on what the criteria is. Game changer? Titles: number of defences/different weight classes? number of fights? Number of KO's? number of submissions? Number of wins? How many events they've headlined?
It's too difficult at this stage to pick just one IMO

Rousey.....she may have a great record but I wouldn't call her a great fighter. A very good one trick pony for sure but not a great fighter

Mellor

Any suggestion that Ronda is the goat is pretty easily cast aside.

evil_seed

magic_murph wrote: »

Rousey.....she may have a great record but I wouldn't call her a great fighter. A very good one trick pony for sure but not a great fighter

Mellor wrote: »

Any suggestion that Ronda is the goat is pretty easily cast aside.

In terms of WMMA she's in the discussion, but WMMA is even more in it's infancy in terms of being mainstream. But again I say, what's the criteria for GOAT?

xckjoo

evil_seed wrote: »

In terms of WMMA she's in the discussion, but WMMA is even more in it's infancy in terms of being mainstream. But again I say, what's the criteria for GOAT?

Whatever criteria fits the fighter you want to argue for at any given time!

yourdeadwright

Impossible to call in MMA as the new breed of fighters are always going to be better than the old due to earlier cross training ,

Sport is so so young most of the people who get the goat tag aren't the best but the pioneers of the sport, Feder , NOG, Hughes, Bj Penn ,Silva, all get murdered by todays top 5 guys in there divisions

GSP may be the only " old Skooler" who would still top of his division

derfderf

I don't know why people use number of title defenses as an indicator. Compare DJ to Tony Ferguson.
DJ wins the belt on his third fight at flyweight, and defends 11 times.
Tony is on an 11 fight winning streak without a title shot.
DJ is always brought up in the goat discussion, but who had the tougher opponents? If Tony won the belt at the start of his streak is it suddenly more impressive?
Even look at Silva. I definitely think he's part of the discussion, but he got his title shot in his second fight. Much easier to rack up defenses if you have the belt before you clean out the division.

Mellor

derfderf wrote: »

I don't know why people use number of title defenses as an indicator. Compare DJ to Tony Ferguson.
DJ wins the belt on his third fight at flyweight, and defends 11 times.
Tony is on an 11 fight winning streak without a title shot.
DJ is always brought up in the goat discussion, but who had the tougher opponents? If Tony won the belt at the start of his streak is it suddenly more impressive?
Even look at Silva. I definitely think he's part of the discussion, but he got his title shot in his second fight. Much easier to rack up defenses if you have the belt before you clean out the division.

if Tony won the belt in his third fight he would have been fighting much tougher opponents than the likes of Lando Vannata.

derfderf

Mellor wrote: »

if Tony won the belt in his third fight he would have been fighting much tougher opponents than the likes of Lando Vannata.

He's fought everyone he could have fought outside of Conor and Khabib, and they're not from lack of trying. RDA, Barboza, Lee, and Pettis, is as tough of a row as you can get, champion or not.
I'm not saying Tony's the goat, but those four are more impressive wins than anyone DJ's fought.

Mellor

3 out of those are his last 3 fights. The streak is 11 fights. I'm not saying those wins aren't great. I'm saying the early fights aren't near that level. You asked:

If Tony won the belt at the start of his streak is it suddenly more impressive?

I'm pointing out if he was champ his other 7 fights would been very different. And much tougher.

derfderf

Mellor wrote: »

3 out of those are his last 3 fights. The streak is 11 fights. I'm not saying those wins aren't great. I'm saying the early fights aren't near that level. You asked:


I'm pointing out if he was champ his other 7 fights would been very different. And much tougher.

Who would he have fought that he hasn't fought?

The Nal

finglashoop wrote: »

Aldo was the best at his weight for a time but factor in age, skills diminishing

And USADA

ziggyman17

Mellor

derfderf wrote: »

Who would he have fought that he hasn't fought?

Over the course of Tony's streak, 6 fighters have challenged for the LW belt. Melendez, RDA, Cerrone, Alvarez, Conor, Khabib. Assuming they all still challenge if Tony was champ. Then the rest from the other top LWs.
Poirier, Gaethje, Nate, Lee, Iaquinta, Barboza, Pettis.

That's 13 fighters, so he couldn't fight them all. But any 11 you pick out would be a significantly tougher run than. Mike Rio, Lando, Castillo.

mailburner

turdball wrote: »

Aldo is like Rousey, just can't cut it with the new crop of stars.

Who are these new crop of stars?
He's beaten half of the current top ten which leaves swanson, bektic volkanovski emmet...only volkanovski would test him from that lot

He's the second best fw in the world right now imo even if ortega is ranked higher, ortega wouldn't sub aldo and his stand up is far inferior

Flyingsnowball

I recently watched the first few ufc things. Ufc1 I, 2and 3 I suppose.

The kickboxer wearing one glove cracked me up. My god how much it’s changed.
Just for ****s and giggles I’d love to see the original Gracie and khabib wrestle.

MrStuffins

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I recently watched the first few ufc things. Ufc1 I, 2and 3 I suppose.

The kickboxer wearing one glove cracked me up. My god how much it’s changed.
Just for ****s and giggles I’d love to see the original Gracie and khabib wrestle.

No you wouldn't.

They did this when they brought Gracie back to fight Matt Hughes. It didn't go well for him. And as great as Matt Hughes was, his prime-self wouldn't be able to hang with the Khabibs of the world today

JacksonHeightsOwn

George st pierre for me.

Fought in my opinion the best welterweights ever, literally one after an other.

Pretty much battered them all senseless to, except for possibly Condit and Jonny "juicer" hendriks.

Anderson silva is tainted because of his ped use.

Ill be slightly left field here to.

If Mcgregor had kept on fighting after the Alvarez win, then he would have been in the mix for the best ever also. Just my opinion

raze_them_all_

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I recently watched the first few ufc things. Ufc1 I, 2and 3 I suppose.

The kickboxer wearing one glove cracked me up. My god how much it’s changed.
Just for ****s and giggles I’d love to see the original Gracie and khabib wrestle.

Do you mean the actually ranked boxer

Calltocall

Khabib, will never be beaten.

Flyingsnowball

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Do you mean the actually ranked boxer

No the fella who won the first few ufc events back before weight classes and stuff. There were sumo wrestlers and Kent shamrock and the likes. Gracie would just roll around with them until he had them pinned and they couldn’t move. They would actually tap out through not being able to get up rather than being in any particular hold. They are well worth a watch just to see the difference between them and now.

Flyingsnowball

Calltocall wrote: »

Khabib, will never be beaten.

I’ve heard that before.

raze_them_all_

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

No the fella who won the first few ufc events back before weight classes and stuff. There were sumo wrestlers and Kent shamrock and the likes. Gracie would just roll around with them until he had them pinned and they couldn’t move. They would actually tap out through not being able to get up rather than being in any particular hold. They are well worth a watch just to see the difference between them and now.

Yeah he was a boxer

Flyingsnowball

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Yeah he was a boxer

Nah he was bjj he wore the karate clothes and never threw a punch.

derfderf

Mellor wrote: »

Over the course of Tony's streak, 6 fighters have challenged for the LW belt. Melendez, RDA, Cerrone, Alvarez, Conor, Khabib. Assuming they all still challenge if Tony was champ. Then the rest from the other top LWs.
Poirier, Gaethje, Nate, Lee, Iaquinta, Barboza, Pettis.

That's 13 fighters, so he couldn't fight them all. But any 11 you pick out would be a significantly tougher run than. Mike Rio, Lando, Castillo.

Okay, fair point on Tony, but it doesn't change the overall point.
Look at Jon Jones. Became champ, defended 7 times (i think) but against killers. If he racks up more then 7 now will it be more impressive after taking the current lhw division into account?
Number of defenses is not just about your skill, timing has a lot to do with it.

Mellor

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Nah he was bjj he wore the karate clothes and never threw a punch.

He's talking about the guy with one glove. You said he was a kickboxer. Raze is pointing out that he was a (ranked) boxer. He tapped out when he was mounted.

Also the BJJ guy was wearing BJJ clothes not karate clothes.