Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I have no agenda i just support the facts.

Nice try. You are openly and unashamedly a Holocaust denier and hold all sorts of very extreme political and world views that you have no qualms about sharing

Now they are trying to claim Guaido did not try to overrthrown Maduro in a coup on Monday. Rubbish all signs show the US got assurances from Maduro inner circle they would switch sides and its reason the coup went ahead on Monday. But it now seems Maduro inner circle played a ruse and pretended they were going to go along with the coup. It was well played by Maduro and they made Guaido look like a fool. Bolton even started naming the inner circle by name not realising it was a tactic from the beginning to force Guaido to react.

Venezuela is literally floating on a sea of oil, but Maduro has systematically driven it into the ground with economic mismanagement, carrying on in almost identical fashion from his predecessor Chavez. Blaming convenient foreign boogeymen for domestic failings is a key part of that policy. Attacking any opposition as being under "foreign control" is from precisely the same playbook while Maduro cements himself further and further as a dictator.

No matter how deliberately fractured they've been, opposition politicians are literally the only hope, yet here they are, being vilified and presented as enemies to the Venezuelan people. Ridiculous stuff.

Irish Praetorian

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Nice try. You are openly and unashamedly a Holocaust denier and hold all sorts of very extreme political and world views that you have no qualms about sharing.

I'm sorry, this seems like a pretty serious accusation, could I trouble you for some evidence to support that?

Cheerful Spring

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm sorry, this seems like a pretty serious accusation, could I trouble you for some evidence to support that?

I deny the 6 milliion Jews died during WW2. I believe the holocust happened my figure is around 4 million, but questioning history is something Dohnjoe has problem with. Dohnjoe accepts the official narrative about every world event.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Nice try. You are openly and unashamedly a Holocaust denier and hold all sorts of very extreme political and world views that you have no qualms about sharing



Venezuela is literally floating on a sea of oil, but Maduro has systematically driven it into the ground with economic mismanagement, carrying on in almost identical fashion from his predecessor Chavez. Blaming convenient foreign boogeymen for domestic failings is a key part of that policy. Attacking any opposition as being under "foreign control" is from precisely the same playbook while Maduro cements himself further and further as a dictator.

No matter how deliberately fractured they've been, opposition politicians are literally the only hope, yet here they are, being vilified and presented as enemies to the Venezuelan people. Ridiculous stuff.

Lets ignore facts on the ground. Floating in oil exactly the reason why the United States is keen to outst Maduro. Also a Russian and Cuban ally, and they are a socialist country- three reasons they hate them.

Bolton, Pompeo and Trump are totally silent about the coup on Monday? What world do you live when you claiming there no outside interference happening. Guaido wife showed up at the White House for talks with Trump. United States is actively trying to destroy Venezulea economy since Chavez came to power and your opinion is all this because of poor management of the economy is nonsense. You have learned nothing and doubt you even marched in Iraq war protest like you claim, your posts are always on side of neoncons and their war plans.

Irish Praetorian

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I deny the 6 milliion Jews died during WW2. I believe the holocust happened my figure is around 4 million, but questioning history is something Dohnjoe has problem with. Dohnjoe accepts the official narrative about every world event.

Well colour me bemused - I suspect we shall have to find another thread to continue this on at some point. Though you can imagine my suspicion when people wade into debates that professional historians tend to have enough trouble waging.

blackwhite

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Lets ignore facts on the ground.

That does seem to be the cornerstone of most of your posts here alright.

Have you any evidence whatsoever to back up your claims that this was orchestrated by the US - other than Maduro's unsubstantiated claims where he points the finger at the big bad outsiders?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Also a Russian and Cuban ally

Which explains exactly why you mindlessly repeat whatever ridiculous claims Maduro will make as blind fact.

It's funny how you never have had any concerns about Russia annexing the territory of its neighbours - in fact you've been cheerleading for them whenever they've engaged in unprovoked invasions.

Eric Cartman

whatever about oil, the US always has and always will respond when threats of anti-US leadership on the continental americas present. So do russia for their surrounding nations, so do the chinese etc... Its absolutely no mystery why the US interferes in south america more than other places.

Maduro is still starving his people and running the country into the ground, I fully support any anti communist coup.

Cheerful Spring

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well colour me bemused - I suspect we shall have to find another thread to continue this on at some point. Though you can imagine my suspicion when people wade into debates that professional historians tend to have enough trouble waging.

We have discussed this far too much on After hours and conspiracy sites, it too hot a topic so i can't be bothered anymore. For Dohnjoe and people like him they don't like when you discuss history and dispute some of the information. I done some research about the Holocust and even a recognised holocust researcher had an opinion the 6 million figure was too high. I don't want to debate this subject anymore because it brings out the anger in people if you talk about it.

James Brown

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who openly ignore the facts and bang the anti American drums while supporting other countries aggressions ,

We could all post generalisations that suit our view without any back up.

Sadly there are often people who turn a blind eye to US interference despite the facts and the bloody consequences on the populace of these countries....see how that works?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That is a disgraceful attitude, frankly. This idea that the US has promulgated this uprising, as opposed to the desperate Venezuelans trying to oust a tyrant is, to use the phrase of your side, risible.

I would say it's quite possible many Venezuelans might wish to oust Maduro, however the US/Trump certainly did support and encourage this 'uprising' and did make military threats. You dismissing these facts is risible.

Irish Praetorian

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We have discussed this far too much on After hours and conspiracy sites, it too hot a topic so i can't be bothered anymore. For Dohnjoe and people like him they don't like when you discuss history and dispute some of the information. I done some research about the Holocust and even a recognised holocust researcher had an opinion the 6 million figure was too high. I don't want to debate this subject anymore because it brings out the anger in people if you talk about it.

Very well, although I might trouble you to PM me the name of that researcher, for my own edification if nothing else. Given the facts I would struggle to label your position as 'denialism' though some might regard it as diminishing - still its not unusual for historical debates to rage about the facts many centuries and millenia after the fact. I believe the current accepted figure in mainstream academia ranges from 5.4 to 6.2 million so 4 or 4 something wouldn't be THAT far off. In any case it is off topic so if the rest of you can indulge my love of tangents we might return to the topic at hand.

Cheerful Spring

blackwhite wrote: »

That does seem to be the cornerstone of most of your posts here alright.

Have you any evidence whatsoever to back up your claims that this was orchestrated by the US - other than Maduro's unsubstantiated claims where he points the finger at the big bad outsiders?




Which explains exactly why you mindlessly repeat whatever ridiculous claims Maduro will make as blind fact.

It's funny how you never have had any concerns about Russia annexing the territory of its neighbours - in fact you've been cheerleading for them whenever they've engaged in unprovoked invasions.

Are you not watching the events.

US threatened to invade if Guaido is arrested or killed. Is this not evidence of interference in another countries affairs? Guaido even declared himself president and nobody inside the country voted for him. Do you believe in democracy? Maduro won a narrow election over his rival and analysts back then said the election was not rigged. Maduro is the President, not Guaido. You can call for new elections, but demanding change by force is a coup.

Maduro has even allowed the protests to continue for Months and has not done anything. How bad is he really when he allowing the opposition to voice an opinion. Now they tried to carry out military coup against him. Bolton let it slip they were in contact with Maduro Defence minister and other cabinet ministers to switch sides they had got assurances. They were managing the coup with Guaido. Guaido went ahead thinking Maduro cabinet ministers had flipped when they had not, they played a ruse and exposed how little support Guaido has militarily and by the public.

ancapailldorcha

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I deny the 6 milliion Jews died during WW2. I believe the holocust happened my figure is around 4 million, but questioning history is something Dohnjoe has problem with. Dohnjoe accepts the official narrative about every world event.

Banned for being uncivil. Anything even remotely resembling holocaust denial in future will warrant a sizeable ban. Everyone else, please try to be civil and use the report function if you have a problem.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Most of the arguments supporting the imperialism are of the whataboutary and ad hominem type, or seem to be arguing that if Venezuela is poor or has a kind of economic or political system that the US (or the US supporting poster) doesn’t like that this legitimises invasion, or interference in a sovereign country. There is no such provision to my knowledge under international law. I am open to correction.

Other posters seem to think that the US sanctions are no part of the reason for the economic collapse but that would make sanctions useless. They clearly have had some effect and are designed to have that effect.

Nevertheless the responsibility for the economic crisis isn’t pertinent to whether the US would have a right to control countries in its orbit, in fact it has no such right.

Eric Cartman

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Most of the arguments supporting the imperialism are of the whataboutary and ad hominem type, or seem to be arguing that if Venezuela is poor or has a kind of economic or political system that the US (or the US supporting poster) doesn’t like that this legitimises invasion, or interference in a sovereign country. There is no such provision to my knowledge under international law. I am open to correction.

Other posters seem to think that the US sanctions are no part of the reason for the economic collapse but that would make sanctions useless. They clearly have had some effect and are designed to have that effect.

Nevertheless the responsibility for the economic crisis isn’t pertinent to whether the US would have a right to control countries in its orbit, in fact it has no such right.

The US does however have a right not to trade with hostile foreign countries, and those countries have a political responsibility to their people to act in a manor that allows trade with the countries important to them.

Saying that the US shouldnt have sanctioned them is like saying that you should be forced to shop somewhere that you know has a political or moral stance that you find abhorrent or treats their staff in a way you find vile, but you should still have to shop there.

eire4

AbusesToilets wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-venezuela-in-crisis-democracy-is-the-escape-route-1.3877689?mode=amp

Timely piece from the Times this morning, giving a nice overview of how Venezuela found itself in the desperate state it's in. Hint : the US had little to do with it.

As I have said before this is not about the Americans being the root cause of where Venezuela is at today but it is about the Americans using the problems in Venezuela for their own ends. They are not an honest broker here. They want to install a US puppet who will do as he is told and thus be able to exploit the country economically which is what the Americans have along history of doing in Latin America. Classic American disaster capitalism.

ilkhanid

SNIP. Do not dump links here please.