Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

Subcomandante Marcos

Gatling wrote: »

But didn't that actually hurt American domestic oil production especially in shale and fracking oil and gas industry

Not really, no. It hurt profits a bit, but doesn't cause losses. Shale is cheap to extract and has quick RoI. Fracking is super cheap. Shale Gas is cheap to refine, fracked oil is generally light and cheap to refine. It's also an engineered price collapse and completely unsustainable so it's irrelevant to US companies who have medium to long term investment in and and sales of shale gas and fracked crude. the Saudi's can't keep their production that high in the medium term, as it chops their own legs out from under them, so US (and Canadian, though they are hurting more, heavy crude from Tar Sands for example is a lot more expensive to extract and process and they already sell to the US at a discount) producers just have to wait it out.
It is however causing massive issues in other areas the US financial markets.
And again, it's a case of doctrine trumping pragmatism.

Spannerplank

Harry Palmr wrote: »

There's 479 Norwegians in Ireland as of 2016 census. Not exactly an exodus! There is 1200 from Venezuela though!

How many British? If you want to bring the discussion down to childish levels.

Subcomandante Marcos

Spannerplank wrote: »

How many British? If you want to bring the discussion down to childish levels.

277,200, as of the last census.
Largest population after native Irish, damn brits, dey tuk ewr jerbs.

Spannerplank

Eric Cartman wrote: »

less than 10% of americans are on the poverty line, atleast 30 of the 36 million in venezuela are starving / malnourished. Now Im not advocating for the american system , but by metrics of starving people its certainly clear which country is better.

four out of the Americans live beloved the poverty line. Would you like the source of this abysmal fact. Try going onto the OECD website.

AngryHippie

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

They (KSA)

https://securityassistance.org/saudi%20arabia
https://www.ft.com/content/dd836c34-d60b-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8

Now we are talking about number that get things done !

The numbers don't stack up in terms of making it feasible, plausible or worthwhile for the US to run amok toppling governments down in South America.
They have been running around down there with a hard-on and a gun since forever. It's not about socialism, communism or any other sort of idealism.
Venezuela has oil, thus it must be controlled or sidelined and powerless to improve their bargaining position to eliminate competition.
This is and has always been achieved in the same manner as the other strategic resources in South America (Copper - Chile, Peru, Mexico; Iron - Brazil;)

Spannerplank

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

What other choice does the country have? The people are starving, millions have fled the nation, hyper inflation, economic collapse, political corruption. Another failed socialist state. Add that to the long list of failed nations. The people are going to try give someone else a go who might actually solve some problems. For a country floating in oil it should be the bread basket of South America and not the poor man.

Murray

Millions have fled Syria. And Iraq. And Libya.

They are now arriving in Europe hoping that their nightmare might come to an end. These people are fleeing American bombing of their countries.

One would have to be a moron to think that a man and his family would fled from where they grew up and feel safe just because the government are corrupt.

These people are running from death and it isn't their own people who are
delivering the horrors.

Gatling

Spannerplank wrote: »

Murray

Millions have fled Syria. And Iraq.

They are now arriving in Europe hoping that their nightmare might come to an end. These people are fleeing American bombing of their countries.

Nothing to do with Isis No ? And the Assad regime ?

na1

Good loser wrote: »

Have they any idea of what havoc he has rained on his country (to date) and what more such he will do until he's removed?

People starving!
3m fled the country!
No medicines!
Supreme court ransacked!
Parliament discarded after opposition won the election!
1,000,000% inflation
Daughter of Chavez the richest person in the country
The ruling elite corrupt from top to bottom
Oil industry run into the ground

Some countries are more equal than others.

Rwanda 1994:1 million civilians (Tutsi) were slaughtered mostly due to French supported media.

Do you remember any sanctions? Condemnation? "Rwanda President must go"?

During these events and in the aftermath, the United Nations (UN) and countries including the United States, the United Kingdom, and Belgium were criticized for their inaction and failure to strengthen the force and mandate of the UN Assistance Mission for Rwanda (UNAMIR) peacekeepers. In December 2017, media reported revelations that the government of France had allegedly supported the Hutu government after the genocide had begun

na1

Gatling wrote: »

And the Assad regime ?

What is the difference between Assad regime and Abdrabbuh Mansur Hadi (presidend of Yemen) regime ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_takeover_in_Yemen

markodaly

Spannerplank wrote: »

The whole rats thing is just more propaganda. Like Saddam's incubators and WMD. Like ghaddaffis viagra. Like Assads chemical attacks. Like Kim having his ex murdered. Like Iran calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map".

You shouldn't keep calling for the same old spiel.

In fairness, the Conspiracy Theory forum is --> this way.

Gatling

na1 wrote: »

What is the difference between Assad regime and Abdrabbuh Mansur Hadi (presidend of Yemen) regime ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_takeover_in_Yemen

Is abdrabuh Hadi a better option than houti rebels /Iranians minority no .
How many conflicts have occurred in Yemen in the last 40 years ,5 civil wars and numerous smaller scale internal conflicts ,
I don't agree with how the Saudis went about their intervention but it's no more than we seen Putin in Syria which wasn't about Isis but keeping assad in power so they could keep a deep sea port ,

It's always been public knowledge assad was disappearing anyone who disagreed with his way or his family's way long before Isis

markodaly

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

They (KSA) ramped up to 11 million barrels per day at the behest of the US, in exchange for massively discounted arms deals, to hurt (primarily) Iran (in addition to America re-instating ridiculous sanctions after withdrawing from the nuclear treaty for absolutely no reason other than to appeal to his idiot support base and get belly rubs from AIPAC) and Russia, the fact that Venezuela's losses would be compounded on top of unjustified sanctions was a bonus, but not the primary goal, the sanctions alone were enough to apply an economic siege on the Venezuelan economy in the medium term.

Saudi did this despite it hurting them financially, because it gained them arms and favour with the US and it helped them in their proxy war with Iran, and hurt Iran's allies Russia and Venezuela by extension.

As an aside, the US are doing this to hurt Iran and Russia, despite it causing turmoil in their own financial markets, because doctrine is more important than pragmatism to American right win ideologues.

To quote yourself, 'your grasp of the situation is ridiculous'.

A nice story and all, but its very telling that you have no evidence to back up said story.

markodaly

I have to love these threads always going down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, where every single event and action in the world somehow revolves about the Americans doing 'something'.

Soon we will be talking about the Rothschilds, The Elders of Zion and Lizard people.

Spannerplank

Manic Moran wrote: »

Then why isn’t every other left-leaning Latin American country falling apart like Venezuela is? Face it, Chavez and Maduro ballsed up by the numbers.

Can you explain why a left leaning Chile with a democratically elected Allende was destroyed by your beloved CIA and replaced by the tbug, Pinochet? Can you explain why the same Jack move was pulled in Argentina giving us the junta reign of terror? How about the left leaning democratically elected governments of Honduras and Guatemala until they were overthrown and their resources again handed over to American corporations and death squads trained in the US were unleashed to torture and butcher anyone who complained?

You might want to read some of what Marine Corps General Smedley Butler had to write and then you might get an idea of what you've signed up for.

Subcomandante Marcos

Someone who thinks US sanctions can be side stepped by "just trading with another country" is trying to talk down to people.
You couldn't make this up.

ArchXStanton

List of countries the US has overthrown or attempted to overthrow/election meddling

China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Honduras 2009 *
Libya 2011 *
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014 *

Does anybody think the US would accept this type of interference in its affairs its subjecting Venezuela too?

na1

Gatling wrote: »

Is abdrabuh Hadi a better option than houti rebels /Iranians minority no .

Was Trump the better option than Hillary? And who has the right to decide?

This doesn't answer my question though: what's the difference between two regimes?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Gatling wrote: »

Is abdrabuh Hadi a better option than houti rebels /Iranians minority no .
How many conflicts have occurred in Yemen in the last 40 years ,5 civil wars and numerous smaller scale internal conflicts ,
I don't agree with how the Saudis went about their intervention but it's no more than we seen Putin in Syria which wasn't about Isis but keeping assad in power so they could keep a deep sea port ,

It's always been public knowledge assad was disappearing anyone who disagreed with his way or his family's way long before Isis

Keeping Assad in power has in fact stabilised the region and Europe, as the flow of refugees has stopped. Team America are more concerned with their right wing American and neo con fantasies than the actual continent they live on.

Spannerplank

markodaly wrote: »

In fairness, the Conspiracy Theory forum is --> this way.

So you are maintaining that WMDs in Iraq existed, like all the other things mentioned and to point out that it was all a hoax is a conspiracy?I

Is that what you are saying?

Saddam Hussein could have bombed London within 45 minutes even though he didn't have an air force yet to rightly point out the absurdity of this blatant lie means one is a conspiracy theorist? Is that what you are saying?

Get some proof of those incubators and post it up here. It's been proven to be a lie. Same with the claims that Ghaddafi was giving g his troops viagra so they would all have boners and would then go on rape sprees.

You would need to be in a special category of idiot to believe that.

But you think it's true and challenging such nonsense is the stuff of conspiracies?

Franz Von Peppercorn

markodaly wrote: »

I have to love these threads always going down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, where every single event and action in the world somehow revolves about the Americans doing 'something'.

Soon we will be talking about the Rothschilds, The Elders of Zion and Lizard people.

You probably want to lay off the straw man arguments to be taken seriously. If someone says that the US has conspired to overthrow government(s), of which there is plenty of proof it’s hardly the same as a belief in the lizard people now is it?

Get Real

Spannerplank wrote: »

four out of the Americans live beloved the poverty line. Would you like the source of this abysmal fact. Try going onto the OECD website.

Under 18percent of Americans live below poverty line. It's on the oecd website https://www.statista.com/statistics/233910/poverty-rates-in-oecd-countries/#0

87 to 90 percent of Venezuelans are below the poverty line

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/venezuela-crisis

https://borgenproject.org/top-10-facts-about-poverty-in-venezuela/

https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2018/02/21/encovi-2017/

Indeed, 18percent in the US isn't positive either, however I don't agree that it's comparable by any means to the situation in Venezuela. And democracy and capitalism do have their downfalls, but as Churchill quoted

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried from time to time

Spannerplank

Gatling wrote: »

Can you back up that claim with verified information or are you just throwing it out there as a conspiracy theory

You have a track record of peddling lies and not backing them up when asked to. On multiple occasions. You're in no position to ask for verification and to keep a straight face whilst you do so and then throw in a petty CT insult to cap it all off.

If you want to be taken seriously and treated with respect then I suggest you try to earn it by displaying a degree of maturity and respect to others.

na1

Another example: Paul Biya the dictator president of Cameroon since 1982.

Neither US or UK or France have any problems with Paul Biya regime, since he provides a sustainable export of redwood and other natural resources.

If for some reason he try to stop the export, then immediately you'll see the news about the "brutal dictator"

Gatling

Spannerplank wrote: »

You're in no position to ask for verification and to keep a straight face whilst you do so and then throw in a petty CT insult to cap it all off.

Absolutely no idea what that's about .


But i take it Saudi Arabia bankrupting Venezuela on behalf of America isn't true and it's essentially made up ?

Spannerplank

markodaly wrote: »

I have to love these threads always going down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, where every single event and action in the world somehow revolves about the Americans doing 'something'.

Soon we will be talking about the Rothschilds, The Elders of Zion and Lizard people.

This is actually a very serious and cogent debate. If you can't contribute anything to it other than juvenile sneers to counter valid positions that you can't otherwise debate intellectually then why don't you just not bother?

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

List of countries the US has overthrown or attempted to overthrow/election meddling

List

Does anybody think the US would accept this type of interference in its affairs its subjecting Venezuela too?

To be fair, I think most of those interventions from the period post WW2 up until 1990 can be quite easily categorized as part of the Cold War, which doesn't necessarily excuse those actions but puts them in the context of a global conflict. More to the point, I can't help but notice that reviewing that list of places, those areas where US aligned forces prevailed over Soviet aligned forces, tend to be better off in the present day. I mean consider the contrast between China and Taiwan or North and South Korea. Moreover some of these listed interventions just seem bizzare; East Germany for example - a state that literally had to build a wall to keep its own people imprisoned is listed as a victim of American intervention, whilst we gloss over the presence of the Red Army required to maintain that state. And some just seem to be a complete mistake like Honduras in 2009, which the US (nominally atleast) opposed.

Apart from that, I think the US can mostly stand by its track record post 1990, with the obvious exception of Iraq which just seems more and more like a parody of the worst in US foreign policy. The sole saving grace of the Iraqi intervention seems to be the eventual realization of its folly and ultimately its abandonment.

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Keeping Assad in power has in fact stabilised the region and Europe, as the flow of refugees has stopped. Team America are more concerned with their right wing American and neo con fantasies than the actual continent they live on.

Em, didn't the whole Arab Spring come about during Obama's watch, pushed wholeheartedly by Hillary?

Wasnt Trump elected on the back of a narrative about American entrenchment, withdrawal, and isolationism?

markodaly

Spannerplank wrote: »

So you are maintaining that WMDs in Iraq existed, like all the other things mentioned and to point out that it was all a hoax is a conspiracy?I

Is that what you are saying?

No, but what you are doing is the usual Conspiracy 3 card trick.

You state one fact, that Sadam hadn't had WMD's, then follow it up a disputed fact, about Viagra being disrupted to Ghadafi's troops so they can sustain mass rapes (Ghadafi was still a grade A scumbag), then follow it up with lies, that Iran is not hostile to Israel, that Assad didn't drop chemical weapons on its own people.

In summary, you stated one truth, one unverified truth (I'll give it to you because I am nice) and two lies. So, you are 2 out of 4. You only lie half the time.

This is the usual tour de force when it comes to anything to do with American foreign affairs. There are so many half-truths and outright lies spread in among the actual truth. Everything and anything comes down to oil, which is the lazy man's excuse to explain something and anything.

This thread is a good example of that.

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You probably want to lay off the straw man arguments to be taken seriously. If someone says that the US has conspired to overthrow government(s), of which there is plenty of proof it’s hardly the same as a belief in the lizard people now is it?

Not at all, see my post above on how these debates go.

I am not disputing that the US has conspired to overthrow governments. What I am questioning is the default knee jerk reaction to this often used narrative. People are always quick to jump to the nice fairytale conclusions, wrapped in a bow.

Its like anytime someone from the State Department opens its mouth, some government is being overthrown. This leads us into the realm of conspiracy theory very quickly whether or not there is evidence to back it up or not.

Take Venezuela. The same people who would have you believe that Trump is Putin's puppet will in the same breath state that Trump wants to overthrow Venezuela because of oil (of course) even though Maduro and Putin are close enough allies. But I guess its all part of the conspiracy. :rolleyes:

Apparently now, the US tried to overthrow the Australian government in the 1970's. Who knew? Further reading on this claim shows that it is a very very tenuous claim.
This is just one example who people wanting to believe something rather than looking at the evidence and coming to a rational reason based conclusion.

Subcomandante Marcos

Gatling wrote: »

Absolutely no idea what that's about .


But i take it Saudi Arabia bankrupting Venezuela on behalf of America isn't true and it's essentially made up ?

Saudi oil production increases definitely contributed to and expounded the problems created by unjust sanctions. It wasn't the primary reason for the increase in production, but it wasn't exactly a coincidence either, more of a 2 (or in this case, 3) birds with 1 stone situation.
But essentially, they were just a cherry on a steaming poop sundae that was caused mainly by unjustifiable sanctions on fabricated grounds.

Subcomandante Marcos

markodaly wrote: »

Apparently now, the US tried to overthrow the Australian government in the 1970's. Who knew? Further reading on this claim shows that it is a very very tenuous claim.
This is just one example who people wanting to believe something rather than looking at the evidence and coming to a rational reason based conclusion.

No apparently about it, there's literal documentary evidence in the form of declassified FBI files that both the CIA and MI6 were both involved in the constitutional crisis in Australia of 1974-1975.

Next you'll be saying the CIA had nothing to do with the coup that overthrew Mosaddegh or the murder of Patrice Lumumba.

piplip87

Statement from the Venezuelan Community of Ireland released on FB last night

#Statement

To the #ð—œð—¿ð—¶ð˜€ð—µð— ð—²ð—±ð—¶ð—®.

Re: The Situation in #Venezuela

In the spirit of providing the relevant socio-political and legislative context, there are seven background facts to consider:

1. Juan Guaidó is the current President of The National Assembly, a legitimate body in the
Venezuelan government, which was elected on December 5th 2015 by public elections.

2. On the 1st of March of 2018, Nicolás Maduro ordered the Electoral Body (CNE) to fast track
ahead of time the organization of a Presidential Election to be held on 20th of May that year.
That request did not comply with the timeframe required, as established in Venezuelan Law,
which states that the time to call upon the public for a General Presidential Election was at
earliest, in the last quarter of 2018.

3. Due to numerous red flags and irregularities on the “electoral process” and the abstinence of
participation from the Opposition, it was confirmed both by the National Assembly, and
internationally, that the results were not legitimate and would be recognized as illegal due to
the biased process involved, and violations of local electoral law and the Constitution.

4. The National Assembly (the equivalent to the Parliament, the second most powerful figure
within the Venezuelan Constitution and with a majority representation of Opposition
lawmakers) and the Supreme Tribunal in exile (as nominated by the National Assembly but
subsequently forced into exile by the Maduro government), declared the election a fraud,
which meant that Nicolás Maduro could not be in office for the next Presidential term.

5. Despite the above, Maduro’s administration refused to comply with the Constitutional
norms, thus, breaching the mandate of the National Assembly and the Supreme Tribunal. On
10th of January, he proclaimed himself as the Venezuelan President for a new full term.

6. The Supreme Tribunal (TSJ), ruling in exile -due to the history of persecution and human
rights violations perpetrated by Maduro- declared the illegitimacy of Maduro’s proclamation
as the President due to the illegalities in his election, therefore, following article 233 of the
Venezuelan Constitution proceeded to declare the permanent absence of power in Venezuela.

7. The above-referenced article 233 of the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of
Venezuela establishes that when there is a permanent absence in the Presidency, the President
of the National Assembly has to take on the role of the new interim President and call for
popular elections within 30 days.

Given these seven key facts, it is imperative to emphasize point No. 7, as it is a crucial piece of information to better understand the difference between “self-proclamation” and a statutory
“Constitutional mandate” which is what the Irish media has misinformed in previous days.

Juan Guaidó as the legitimate President of the National Assembly in Venezuela and under the rule
of law and the Venezuelan Constitution has legally assumed the Interim Presidency of Venezuela.

In the first 24 hours following the inauguration of Guaidó’s Interim Presidency, all of the above
was supported and recognized by 22 nations around the world
. The Organization of American
States was also supportive of Juan Guaidó’s Presidency. More recently, a number of European
countries have offered to support Guaido in the event that elections are not arranged within 8 days;
Spain, France, United Kingdom, Finland, Switzerland, Portugal and Germany.

Therefore, we gathered on 23rd of January outside Dáil Éireann, as a sign of support to the new
legitimate and interim President of Venezuela, Juan Guaidó and against Maduro’s regime and the
ongoing human rights violations in our country.

Our petition to the Irish Government is simply:

1. To recognize that Venezuela is facing a humanitarian crisis, which is endangering the lives
of Venezuelans due to the severe food and medical shortages.

2. To implement the UNHCR Guidance notes on the Outflow of Venezuelan nationals,
published in March 2018 in order to adopt appropriate and pragmatic protection-oriented
responses to the situation of Venezuelans living in Ireland allowing their regularization and
enabling a legal stay for them.

3. To recognize and/or support Juan Guaidó, the President of the Venezuelan National
Assembly, as the new legitimate and interim President of Venezuela, who is acting according
to the Venezuelan Constitution.

Venezuelan Community in Ireland team

The Irish Times The Irish Post The Irish Sun TheJournal.ie Independent.ie RTÉ News Irish Daily Mirror Newsday.ie The Guardian


Pretty much sums it up but the usual suspect still screaming conspiracy theories.

Why do the left have no problem with people surviving on rats in Venezuela yet moan about a homeless crisis here ?

Stupid socialist economic policies do not work. This is the future of Ireland if the Trots ever get near power

AngryHippie

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

of declassified FBI files that both the CIA and MI6 were both involved in the constitutional crisis in Australia of 1974-1975.
.

I don't suppose you'd have a link to them ?

markodaly

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

No apparently about it, there's literal documentary evidence in the form of declassified FBI files that both the CIA and MI6 were both involved in the constitutional crisis in Australia of 1974-1975.

Ah, the old claim to authority.

There were some allegations made alright but no solid proof of this unfortunately for you even in those documents you don't cite. Lots of circumstantial evidence that again paints a nice story for Hollywood screenwriters but alas the truth is something else.

Former ASIO chief Sir Edward Woodward has dismissed the notion of CIA involvement,[122] as has journalist Paul Kelly.[123][124] Justice Robert Hope, who had twice been royal commissioner investigating the Australian intelligence agencies, including ASIO, stated in 1998 that he had attempted to locate and interview a witness who had allegedly given in-camera evidence to the Church Committee about CIA involvement in the dismissal. He was unable to find either the witness or testimony, despite having the support of "a senior [US] senator".[125] In his top secret supplementary report, however, Hope dismissed the idea of a CIA involvement in Australian politics.[126]

markodaly

piplip87 wrote: »

Statement from the Venezuelan Community of Ireland released on FB last night

#Statement

.
.
.

Venezuelan Community in Ireland team

A good statement from those people actually affected by this crisis. One should heed them rather than try and score petty points on the internet.

Good loser

markodaly wrote: »

A good statement from those people actually affected by this crisis. One should heed them rather than try and score petty points on the internet.

It says it all really. Post 233. Admirably clear.



Game,set and match to Guaido. Maduro clearly an illegitimate imposter (and killer).



Thanks to the Venezuelan Community in Ireland for those facts.

ArchXStanton

Good loser wrote: »

It says it all really. Post 233. Admirably clear.



Game,set and match to Guaido. Maduro clearly an illegitimate imposter (and killer).



Thanks to the Venezuelan Community in Ireland for those facts.

Even though 81% of Venezuelans have never heard of this Guaido character, as I'm sure many here haven't until last week.

You have oil and only democracy can free it from you...

markodaly

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Even though 81% of Venezuelans have never heard of this Guaido character, as I'm sure many here haven't until last week.

You have oil and only democracy can free it from you...

Where is this 81% figure from?

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

A good statement from those people actually affected by this crisis. One should heed them rather than try and score petty points on the internet.

There have been plenty of statements by people actually effected by the crisis from within Venezuala. Why does this statement from people living in Ireland mean so much to you?

It’s not a simple, black and white situation no matter how you try to paint it. IMO Maduro should step down and hold free and fair elections with UN monitors. But I think it’s entirely understandable that he won’t, as far as his side are concern he was democraticly elected.

The opposition boycotted the presidential election, I’m starting to think they did that with a nod and wink from the US to force a constitutional crisis. This is an opinion, I’m not presenting it as fact.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

There have been plenty of statements by people actually effected by the crisis from within Venezuala. Why does this statement from people living in Ireland mean so much to you?

Because they are our neighbours.
Why doesn't mean anything to you?

It’s not a simple, black and white situation no matter how you try to paint it. IMO Maduro should step down and hold free and fair elections with UN monitors. But I think it’s entirely understandable that he won’t, as far as his side are concern he was democraticly elected.

'His side'? Remember the times when Sadam Hussein used to get 'reelected' with 99% of the vote. I am sure he thought he was democratically elected as well. The boy Maduro is a Dictator. Plain and simple.

The opposition boycotted the presidential election, I’m starting to think they did that with a nod and wink from the US to force a constitutional crisis. This is an opinion, I’m not presenting it as fact.

Well, its an opinion with no grounding as fact. What do you want me to say to that?

What if they did or didn't. Perhaps forcing the issue is better, rather than leaving it another 50 years like Cuba and consign Venezuela to the dustbin of history for the next half-century.

You say that you want free and fair election with UN monitors but conceded that it's not going to happen. So then what? What is your plan b?

Wait around for the next 50 years or see if international pressure from both the EU and US can force this guy out so that the country and its citizens have a fighting chance, or is your ideological hatred blinding you from this option?

Franz Von Peppercorn

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, the old claim to authority.

It was a claim to evidence.

Apparently the Governor General sacked the Australian pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

blackwhite

Brian? wrote: »

There have been plenty of statements by people actually effected by the crisis from within Venezuala. Why does this statement from people living in Ireland mean so much to you?

It’s not a simple, black and white situation no matter how you try to paint it. IMO Maduro should step down and hold free and fair elections with UN monitors. But I think it’s entirely understandable that he won’t, as far as his side are concern he was democraticly elected.

The opposition boycotted the presidential election, I’m starting to think they did that with a nod and wink from the US to force a constitutional crisis. This is an opinion, I’m not presenting it as fact.

Some of the opposition boycotted the election - after they had already been banned from particpating by Maduro's regime. In fact, Maduro's regime basically banned anyone who looked like being a threat to Maduro from standing.

Throw in the widespread voter intimidation, vote-buying, etc. and you've elections that were as democratic as those in most totalitarian regimes.

Funny how anyone who's entrenched as hard left or hard right will consistently brush over rampant abuse and electoral fraud so long as it's someone from their "side" doing it.

Brussels Sprout

The US decision, in the past few days, to place sanctions on the Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA looks likely to be an accelerant.
This was the Venezuelan regime’s main source of hard currency since the US were the only ones still paying them for their oil (The Chinese were taking it as payment for loans).
The Soviet Union eventually collapsed when it went broke. This looks likely to follow a similar pattern now unless China/Russia fancy stepping in and propping up Maduro financially.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Actually Maduro's actions are irrelevant. Saudi Arabia has no elections. The question is US interference.

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It was a claim to evidence.

Apparently the Governor General sacked the Australian pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

Yea, 'Apparently'.

Unfortunately for John Pillinger, who is well known for this crackpot conspiracy theories and often appears on Putin's RT to talk down the US, he does the usual thing of mixing some truths and lies into a nice digestible stor.

Pity his piece in the Guardian has zero evidence to back up his claim.

On 11 November – the day Whitlam was to inform parliament about the secret CIA presence in Australia – he was summoned by Kerr. Invoking archaic vice-regal “reserve powers”, Kerr sacked the democratically elected prime minister.

What actually happened.

The 1975 Australian constitutional crisis, also known simply as the Dismissal, has been described as the greatest political and constitutional crisis in Australian history. It culminated on 11 November 1975 with the dismissal from office of the Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam of the Australian Labor Party (ALP), by Governor-General Sir John Kerr, who then commissioned the Leader of the Opposition, Malcolm Fraser of the Liberal Party, as caretaker Prime Minister.

Whitlam's Labor government had been elected in 1972 with a small majority in the House of Representatives, but with the Opposition controlling the Senate. Another election in 1974 resulted in little change. While the Whitlam Government introduced many new policies and programs, it was also rocked by scandals and political miscalculations. In October 1975, the Opposition used its control of the Senate to defer passage of appropriation bills (needed to finance government expenditure), that had been passed by the House of Representatives. The Opposition stated that they would continue their stance unless Whitlam called an election for the House of Representatives, and urged Kerr to dismiss Whitlam unless he agreed to their demand. Whitlam believed that Kerr would not dismiss him, and Kerr did nothing to disabuse Whitlam of this notion.

On 11 November 1975, Whitlam intended to call a half-Senate election in an attempt to break the deadlock. When he went to seek Kerr's approval of the election, Kerr instead dismissed him as Prime Minister and shortly thereafter installed Fraser in his place. Acting quickly before all ALP parliamentarians became aware of the change of government, Fraser and his allies were able to secure passage of the appropriation bills, and Kerr dissolved Parliament for a double dissolution election. Fraser and his government were returned with a massive majority in the election held the following month.

But shadowy figures of the CIA, MI6 pulling the strings seems much more sexy for those that want to believe in American spooks under every bed.

As for CIA Involvement.

Whitlam later wrote that Kerr did not need any encouragement from the CIA.[120] However, he also said that in 1977 United States Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher made a special trip to Sydney to meet with him and told him, on behalf of US President Jimmy Carter, of his willingness to work with whatever government Australians elected, and that the US would never again interfere with Australia's democratic processes.[121]

Former ASIO chief Sir Edward Woodward has dismissed the notion of CIA involvement,[122] as has journalist Paul Kelly.[123][124] Justice Robert Hope, who had twice been royal commissioner investigating the Australian intelligence agencies, including ASIO, stated in 1998 that he had attempted to locate and interview a witness who had allegedly given in-camera evidence to the Church Committee about CIA involvement in the dismissal. He was unable to find either the witness or testimony, despite having the support of "a senior [US] senator".[125] In his top secret supplementary report, however, Hope dismissed the idea of a CIA involvement in Australian politics.[126]

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Actually Maduro's actions are irrelevant. Saudi Arabia has no elections. The question is US interference.

That's both sad and hilarious at the same time.

The president of Venezuela, the dictator who has run his country into the ground, whose actions are irrelevant for some odd reason has bears no responsibility?

What matters here is US involvement.....

This ladies and gentlemen is a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

Because they are our neighbours.
Why doesn't mean anything to you?

Your neighbours specifically? They aren't mine.

It does mean something to me. It's another opinion. It's not a definitive answer to the question of what should happen.

'His side'? Remember the times when Sadam Hussein used to get 'reelected' with 99% of the vote. I am sure he thought he was democratically elected as well. The boy Maduro is a Dictator. Plain and simple.

Funny how he's like Saddam, but his own parliament has the power to remove him and are attempting to remove him. The election wasn't clean, but it's hardly the same as being re-elected in a single party system. It's analogous to Putin in Russia. But Putin also controls the parliament.

Marduro should go, but the hyperbole really isn't needed.

Well, its an opinion with no grounding as fact. What do you want me to say to that?

What if they did or didn't. Perhaps forcing the issue is better, rather than leaving it another 50 years like Cuba and consign Venezuela to the dustbin of history for the next half-century.

You say that you want free and fair election with UN monitors but conceded that it's not going to happen. So then what? What is your plan b?

Wait around for the next 50 years or see if international pressure from both the EU and US can force this guy out so that the country and its citizens have a fighting chance, or is your ideological hatred blinding you from this option?

I said it probably won't happen, but it would be great if it did. I don't have a plan B.

Do you even have a plan A though?

Franz Von Peppercorn

markodaly wrote: »

That's both sad and hilarious at the same time.

The president of Venezuela, the dictator who has run his country into the ground, whose actions are irrelevant for some odd reason has bears no responsibility?

What matters here is US involvement.....

This ladies and gentlemen is a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

I don’t think you know what cognitive dissonance is.

What’s sad is the imperialist notion that the US has any right to interfere in any other country. Venezuela may or may not be a democracy, however the US has worked with, and installed dictatorships all over the world. One of its major allies is Saudi Arabia, one of the world’s foremost despots and a country engaged in genocide and war crimes in Yemen. Your supposed morality is tribal, if your “side” is killing people you don’t care. If your side is a dictatorship you don’t care.

Sadder than this you are not even American and America is hardly working in the interests of Europe by destabilising its hinterland. And of course Saudi is our enemy. It’s not even your side.

Orwell thought that a new form of language would be needed for this, but no.

America: “paddy, hate Venezuela”
Paddy: “ I hate Venezuela“
America: “think nothing bad about Saudi Arabia”
Paddy: “Saudi Arabia is ok”
America: “my dictators are good”
Paddy:”your dictators are good”
America:”enemy dictators are bad”
Paddy:”enemy dictators are bad”.


I suppose rather than dumb down the language you just dumb down thought in general.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

That's both sad and hilarious at the same time.

The president of Venezuela, the dictator who has run his country into the ground, whose actions are irrelevant for some odd reason has bears no responsibility?

What matters here is US involvement.....

This ladies and gentlemen is a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling because you hold 2 seemingly opposing views.

It is not holding 2 contradictory views. I'm sick of seeing it used like this.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

I said it probably won't happen, but it would be great if it did. I don't have a plan B.

Nice. Advocate a clean and simple but unrealistic plan A, but refuse to countenance a plan b if things get dirty.

Kind of like Brexit!