Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

Franz Von Peppercorn

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, the old claim to authority.

It was a claim to evidence.

Apparently the Governor General sacked the Australian pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

blackwhite

Brian? wrote: »

There have been plenty of statements by people actually effected by the crisis from within Venezuala. Why does this statement from people living in Ireland mean so much to you?

It’s not a simple, black and white situation no matter how you try to paint it. IMO Maduro should step down and hold free and fair elections with UN monitors. But I think it’s entirely understandable that he won’t, as far as his side are concern he was democraticly elected.

The opposition boycotted the presidential election, I’m starting to think they did that with a nod and wink from the US to force a constitutional crisis. This is an opinion, I’m not presenting it as fact.

Some of the opposition boycotted the election - after they had already been banned from particpating by Maduro's regime. In fact, Maduro's regime basically banned anyone who looked like being a threat to Maduro from standing.

Throw in the widespread voter intimidation, vote-buying, etc. and you've elections that were as democratic as those in most totalitarian regimes.

Funny how anyone who's entrenched as hard left or hard right will consistently brush over rampant abuse and electoral fraud so long as it's someone from their "side" doing it.

Brussels Sprout

The US decision, in the past few days, to place sanctions on the Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA looks likely to be an accelerant.
This was the Venezuelan regime’s main source of hard currency since the US were the only ones still paying them for their oil (The Chinese were taking it as payment for loans).
The Soviet Union eventually collapsed when it went broke. This looks likely to follow a similar pattern now unless China/Russia fancy stepping in and propping up Maduro financially.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Actually Maduro's actions are irrelevant. Saudi Arabia has no elections. The question is US interference.

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It was a claim to evidence.

Apparently the Governor General sacked the Australian pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

Yea, 'Apparently'.

Unfortunately for John Pillinger, who is well known for this crackpot conspiracy theories and often appears on Putin's RT to talk down the US, he does the usual thing of mixing some truths and lies into a nice digestible stor.

Pity his piece in the Guardian has zero evidence to back up his claim.

On 11 November – the day Whitlam was to inform parliament about the secret CIA presence in Australia – he was summoned by Kerr. Invoking archaic vice-regal “reserve powers”, Kerr sacked the democratically elected prime minister.

What actually happened.

The 1975 Australian constitutional crisis, also known simply as the Dismissal, has been described as the greatest political and constitutional crisis in Australian history. It culminated on 11 November 1975 with the dismissal from office of the Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam of the Australian Labor Party (ALP), by Governor-General Sir John Kerr, who then commissioned the Leader of the Opposition, Malcolm Fraser of the Liberal Party, as caretaker Prime Minister.

Whitlam's Labor government had been elected in 1972 with a small majority in the House of Representatives, but with the Opposition controlling the Senate. Another election in 1974 resulted in little change. While the Whitlam Government introduced many new policies and programs, it was also rocked by scandals and political miscalculations. In October 1975, the Opposition used its control of the Senate to defer passage of appropriation bills (needed to finance government expenditure), that had been passed by the House of Representatives. The Opposition stated that they would continue their stance unless Whitlam called an election for the House of Representatives, and urged Kerr to dismiss Whitlam unless he agreed to their demand. Whitlam believed that Kerr would not dismiss him, and Kerr did nothing to disabuse Whitlam of this notion.

On 11 November 1975, Whitlam intended to call a half-Senate election in an attempt to break the deadlock. When he went to seek Kerr's approval of the election, Kerr instead dismissed him as Prime Minister and shortly thereafter installed Fraser in his place. Acting quickly before all ALP parliamentarians became aware of the change of government, Fraser and his allies were able to secure passage of the appropriation bills, and Kerr dissolved Parliament for a double dissolution election. Fraser and his government were returned with a massive majority in the election held the following month.

But shadowy figures of the CIA, MI6 pulling the strings seems much more sexy for those that want to believe in American spooks under every bed.

As for CIA Involvement.

Whitlam later wrote that Kerr did not need any encouragement from the CIA.[120] However, he also said that in 1977 United States Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher made a special trip to Sydney to meet with him and told him, on behalf of US President Jimmy Carter, of his willingness to work with whatever government Australians elected, and that the US would never again interfere with Australia's democratic processes.[121]

Former ASIO chief Sir Edward Woodward has dismissed the notion of CIA involvement,[122] as has journalist Paul Kelly.[123][124] Justice Robert Hope, who had twice been royal commissioner investigating the Australian intelligence agencies, including ASIO, stated in 1998 that he had attempted to locate and interview a witness who had allegedly given in-camera evidence to the Church Committee about CIA involvement in the dismissal. He was unable to find either the witness or testimony, despite having the support of "a senior [US] senator".[125] In his top secret supplementary report, however, Hope dismissed the idea of a CIA involvement in Australian politics.[126]

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Actually Maduro's actions are irrelevant. Saudi Arabia has no elections. The question is US interference.

That's both sad and hilarious at the same time.

The president of Venezuela, the dictator who has run his country into the ground, whose actions are irrelevant for some odd reason has bears no responsibility?

What matters here is US involvement.....

This ladies and gentlemen is a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

Because they are our neighbours.
Why doesn't mean anything to you?

Your neighbours specifically? They aren't mine.

It does mean something to me. It's another opinion. It's not a definitive answer to the question of what should happen.

'His side'? Remember the times when Sadam Hussein used to get 'reelected' with 99% of the vote. I am sure he thought he was democratically elected as well. The boy Maduro is a Dictator. Plain and simple.

Funny how he's like Saddam, but his own parliament has the power to remove him and are attempting to remove him. The election wasn't clean, but it's hardly the same as being re-elected in a single party system. It's analogous to Putin in Russia. But Putin also controls the parliament.

Marduro should go, but the hyperbole really isn't needed.

Well, its an opinion with no grounding as fact. What do you want me to say to that?

What if they did or didn't. Perhaps forcing the issue is better, rather than leaving it another 50 years like Cuba and consign Venezuela to the dustbin of history for the next half-century.

You say that you want free and fair election with UN monitors but conceded that it's not going to happen. So then what? What is your plan b?

Wait around for the next 50 years or see if international pressure from both the EU and US can force this guy out so that the country and its citizens have a fighting chance, or is your ideological hatred blinding you from this option?

I said it probably won't happen, but it would be great if it did. I don't have a plan B.

Do you even have a plan A though?

Franz Von Peppercorn

markodaly wrote: »

That's both sad and hilarious at the same time.

The president of Venezuela, the dictator who has run his country into the ground, whose actions are irrelevant for some odd reason has bears no responsibility?

What matters here is US involvement.....

This ladies and gentlemen is a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

I don’t think you know what cognitive dissonance is.

What’s sad is the imperialist notion that the US has any right to interfere in any other country. Venezuela may or may not be a democracy, however the US has worked with, and installed dictatorships all over the world. One of its major allies is Saudi Arabia, one of the world’s foremost despots and a country engaged in genocide and war crimes in Yemen. Your supposed morality is tribal, if your “side” is killing people you don’t care. If your side is a dictatorship you don’t care.

Sadder than this you are not even American and America is hardly working in the interests of Europe by destabilising its hinterland. And of course Saudi is our enemy. It’s not even your side.

Orwell thought that a new form of language would be needed for this, but no.

America: “paddy, hate Venezuela”
Paddy: “ I hate Venezuela“
America: “think nothing bad about Saudi Arabia”
Paddy: “Saudi Arabia is ok”
America: “my dictators are good”
Paddy:”your dictators are good”
America:”enemy dictators are bad”
Paddy:”enemy dictators are bad”.


I suppose rather than dumb down the language you just dumb down thought in general.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

That's both sad and hilarious at the same time.

The president of Venezuela, the dictator who has run his country into the ground, whose actions are irrelevant for some odd reason has bears no responsibility?

What matters here is US involvement.....

This ladies and gentlemen is a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling because you hold 2 seemingly opposing views.

It is not holding 2 contradictory views. I'm sick of seeing it used like this.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

I said it probably won't happen, but it would be great if it did. I don't have a plan B.

Nice. Advocate a clean and simple but unrealistic plan A, but refuse to countenance a plan b if things get dirty.

Kind of like Brexit!

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I don’t think you know what cognitive dissonance is.

..

Venezuela may or may not be a democracy

..

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

America: “paddy, hate Venezuela”
Paddy: “ I hate Venezuela“
America: “think nothing bad about Saudi Arabia”
Paddy: “Saudi Arabia is ok”
America: “my dictators are good”
Paddy:”your dictators are good”
America:”enemy dictators are bad”
Paddy:”enemy dictators are bad”.

Cute, but I don't think anyone here actually defends Suadi Arabia. Go check my posting history if you want. You won't find me defending that regime.

I like the subtle plan of attack though as if defending European and American involvement and pressure in any solution to the Venezuela crisis, we are now somehow defending and supporting Wahabism.

I am reminded of the saying if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling because you hold 2 seemingly opposing views.

It is not holding 2 contradictory views. I'm sick of seeing it used like this.

Yes, apologies. I wrongly assumed Franz actually had any empathy to what is going on in Venezuela at the moment.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

Nice. Advocate a clean and simple but unrealistic plan A, but refuse to countenance a plan b if things get dirty.

Kind of like Brexit!

So what is your plan A?

Nice edit of my post to reply to only one specific point you felt you could score a point on.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, apologies. I wrongly assumed Franz actually had any empathy to what is going on in Venezuela at the moment.

What does empathy have to do with you using cognitive dissonance incorrectly?

Another cheap shot.

ancapailldorcha

Off topic post deleted.

ancapailldorcha

Back on topic please. No more discussing mod warnings on thread please.

igCorcaigh

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1090941892383174656?s=19

igCorcaigh

This would be a dangerous move


https://twitter.com/KalteMalte53/status/1090786082885697536?s=19

CPTM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

This would be a dangerous move


https://twitter.com/KalteMalte53/status/1090786082885697536?s=19

Do you mean it's dangerous to get into bed with America in general? Or dangerous because if the pro-Maduro military leaders catch them it's a death sentence?

I think it's dangerous in both ways. I hope they can do it without America's weight behind them. Monetary/Sanction help is one thing, but military involvement could be seen as a slap across Russia's face, forcing their hand to get involved.

igCorcaigh

CPTM wrote: »

Do you mean it's dangerous to get into bed with America in general? Or dangerous because if the pro-Maduro military leaders catch them it's a death sentence?

I think it's dangerous in both ways. I hope they can do it without America's weight behind them. Monetary/Sanction help is one thing, but military involvement could be seen as a slap across Russia's face, forcing their hand to get involved.

Dangerous in that it could fuel a civil war.

Good loser

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Even though 81% of Venezuelans have never heard of this Guaido character, as I'm sure many here haven't until last week.

You have oil and only democracy can free it from you...

That 81% - what's your point.


They all know, I bet, who Maduro is - to the cost of their lives.


Earlier I wrote the daughter of Chavez was the richest women in Venezuela; that should have been in South America!

Manic Moran

Well, they have to get them from somewhere, Chavez’s government conveniently banned private firearms ownership just over six years ago.

Gatling

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, they have to get them from somewhere, Chavez’s government conveniently banned private firearms ownership just over six years ago.

While increasing stockpiles of Russian weapons for the military

Spannerplank

Out of curiosity....

A week or two ago Venezuelans allegedly had to eat flamingos from the zoo to survive. Now the population is 22 million. I'm guessing that there were maybe 100 flamingos in the zoo which would have made for maybe 200 Sunday roasts since a flamingo body can't be much bigger than a goose.

So that would have sustained maybe 1000 people for 2 days. I'm guessing now that all the flamingos have been eaten by the lucky 1000 who managed to get one. And that was weeks ago. So what did the remaining millions eat?

How many zoo animals can sustain a population of 22 million?

I heard talk of the people needing to eat rats. That would be maybe 66 million rates needed everyday for 3 squares. Where are all these rats coming from?


What are the people that you see on tv eating if the supply of rats and flamingos has been exhausted? And how come there are not hundreds of thousands of famine victims....The ones who weren't able to catch a rat or flamingo weeks ago

Havockk

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, they have to get them from somewhere, Chavez’s government conveniently banned private firearms ownership just over six years ago.

Why is no one reporting that ordinary people are out in support of Maduro?



Why are we only hearing one contrived narrative and people like the above pushing for arms to be sent?

Eric Cartman

Spannerplank wrote: »

Out of curiosity....

A week or two ago Venezuelans allegedly had to eat flamingos from the zoo to survive. Now the population is 22 million. I'm guessing that there were maybe 100 flamingos in the zoo which would have made for maybe 200 Sunday roasts since a flamingo body can't be much bigger than a goose.

So that would have sustained maybe 1000 people for 2 days. I'm guessing now that all the flamingos have been eaten by the lucky 1000 who managed to get one. And that was weeks ago. So what did the remaining millions eat?

How many zoo animals can sustain a population of 22 million?

I heard talk of the people needing to eat rats. That would be maybe 66 million rates needed everyday for 3 squares. Where are all these rats coming from?


What are the people that you see on tv eating if the supply of rats and flamingos has been exhausted? And how come there are not hundreds of thousands of famine victims....The ones who weren't able to catch a rat or flamingo weeks ago

theres more than 37,000 flamingos in Venezuela, they are native to there, not in zoo's

rats are pretty plentiful, some have taken to eating zoo animals, one third of the population doesnt eat a meal every day, theres still rice and planted veg and corn but its not enough to sustain people.

from the aptly named wikipedia article "shortages in Venezuela"

There are shortages of milk, meat, coffee, rice, oil, precooked flour, butter, toilet paper, personal hygiene products and medicines.[4][15][16][17] By January 2017, the shortage of medicines reached 85%, according to the Pharmaceutical Federation of Venezuela (Federación Farmacéutica de Venezuela).[18] Hours-long lines have become common, and those who wait in them are sometimes disappointed. Some Venezuelans have resorted to eating wild fruit and garbage.[19][20][21][22]

On 9 February 2018 a group of Special Procedures and the Special Rapporteurs on food, health, adequate housing and extreme poverty issued a joint statement on Venezuela that partly read, "Vast numbers of Venezuelans are starving, deprived of essential medicines, and trying to survive in a situation that is spiraling downwards with no end in sight".[23]

Havockk

Gatling wrote: »

While increasing stockpiles of Russian weapons for the military

A military stockpiling weapons?

Seriously?


That's news?

Eric Cartman

Havockk wrote: »

Why is no one reporting that ordinary people are out in support of Maduro?

ill dig it up , but I read an article stating that you get a can of fish and some beans / rice for attending. It would strike me as odd that ordinary people in a country thats been declared in a famine state, would all purchase new hats and flags.

Eric Cartman

Havockk wrote: »

Reading an article? You're spouting outright lies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/world/americas/venezuela-election-president-maduro-food.html

Mr. Romero did not consider himself a supporter of the president.

He had come in search of food.

“I came here because I thought they would give me something to eat,” said Mr. Romero, referring to the handouts often seen at government rallies.

The NY Times doesn't seem to think so, the only lie seems to be here that there was in fact no food handed out...

Havockk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/world/americas/venezuela-election-president-maduro-food.html


The NY Times doesn't seem to think so, the only lie seems to be here that there was in fact no food handed out...

So why did no one go home?

The lies just aren't even believable anymore.