Home Automation advice for frustrated Newbie

Irish_peppa

Hi Guys
Newbie here
So I just started my Home automation project in December (Nest (Great) Ring Doorbell (Brilliant device) and loads of TP Link smart Plugs (Excellent Devices) They are all absolutely brilliant devices!
I got a load of TP link plugs but after setting up 25 of them I found that I could only connect a handful of my usual connections (smart phones tablets etc). Rang the Router maker Netgear to be told there is a max amount of simultaneous users of 32 per channel 2.4ghz & 5ghz. How do all you guys have so many IOT devices connected and what sort of Routers are you using . is there some work around so that I can more IOT devices on my 2.4Ghz frequency or is that it 32 IOT devices and thats the end of the line. In the mean time I have my 10 spare smart plugs powered down.
Ideally I would love about 30 TP Link smart plugs and about 15 phones tablets etc House of 7 teenagers / adults
Any advice welcome

Seanieke

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I'm wrong but I would have thought you can connect 254 devices based on IP address, with the router being the 255th?

wexfordman2

Seanieke wrote: »

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I'm wrong but I would have thought you can connect 254 devices based on IP address, with the router being the 255th?

That would be the limit based on the IP address range, but the router itself might have limitations also, from a processing perspective.

I winder op, if it is possible to set fixed it addresses on the devices ?

ted1

Seanieke wrote: »

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I'm wrong but I would have thought you can connect 254 devices based on IP address, with the router being the 255th?

That’s ip addresses. The limitation is the actual number of devices that can be connected wirelessly.

Op get a dedicated wireless router for your IOT devices and phisically connect it via Ethernet cable to the other router.

Can I ask why would you need 25+ smart plugs ?

bk

Seanieke wrote: »

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I'm wrong but I would have thought you can connect 254 devices based on IP address, with the router being the 255th?

It seems like some of the older Netgear only do 32!!!

https://kb.netgear.com/24043/How-many-clients-can-you-connect-wirelessly-to-a-NETGEAR-router

Well that certainly kills the idea of using lots of wifi switches/bulbs/etc.

Irish_peppa, can I ask what you are using so many wifi plugs for? Seems like a lot.

BTW a way around this might be to use a hub based solution. A SmartThings hub with z-wave plugs perhaps.

ED E

Not quite Seanieke. Many routers can address even more that 254 hosts, in fact many multiples (say 1000-65000) but thats separate to WLAN capacity.


Some access points can only handle 16 devices, others 32 and a few more. 32 is fairly middle of the road. In cases like this the basic step is to setup an IoT access point. They tend to not need much bandwidth so a cheapo unit will do. That way you've gone from 2 to 3(4) radios and doubled your device limit. It also means your lamps arent contending your netflix on the TV.

The better solution is to build two entirely independent networks so when your IOT gear gets hacked (they will) it doest act as a beachhead for the rest of your data. Thats for nerds though.

Irish_peppa

ted1 wrote: »

That’s ip addresses. The limitation is the actual number of devices that can be connected wirelessly.

Op get a dedicated wireless router for your IOT devices and phisically connect it via Ethernet cable to the other router.

Hi Ted, do you mean Add a second router? I didnt think of that at all! Would it be acting like an access point or as a router? I actually have 2 access points allready
My Setup currently is
Router: Nighthawk X6 AC3200
Access Point: 2 xNighthawk Access Points Ex7000

Can I ask why would you need 25+ smart plugs ?

Using them in all my lights and lava lamps and table lamps on schedules ,

Irish_peppa

Op get a dedicated wireless router for your IOT devices and phisically connect it via Ethernet cable to the other router.

Hi Ted, do you mean Add a second router? I didnt think of that at all! Would it be acting like an access point or as a router? I actually have 2 access points allready
My Setup currently is
Router: Nighthawk X6 AC3200
Access Point: 2 xNighthawk Access Points Ex7000

Can I ask why would you need 25+ smart plugs ?

Using them in all my lights and lava lamps and table lamps on schedules a bit OTT i know

Irish_peppa

Seanieke wrote: »

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I'm wrong but I would have thought you can connect 254 devices based on IP address, with the router being the 255th?

Seanie
Yes Netgear say the most Simultaneous connections you can have even with their most high end consumer units is a miserly 32!
I tried it. I got 25 Smart plugs connected then I could only add a few androids after that no one extra could connect until some of the smart plugs were powered off

Irish_peppa

bk wrote: »

It seems like some of the older Netgear only do 32!!!



Well that certainly kills the idea of using lots of wifi switches/bulbs/etc.

Irish_peppa, can I ask what you are using so many wifi plugs for? Seems like a lot.

BTW a way around this might be to use a hub based solution. A SmartThings hub with z-wave plugs perhaps.

Well i wanted about 20 Smart Plugs about 8 Google Home minis and then everything extra tablets etc so ideally about 50 x 2.4ghz devices
Ill google this smart things hub thanks for input :d

The high horse brigade

Irish_peppa wrote: »

Using them in all my lights and lava lamps and table lamps on schedules ,

Would hue not be better and cheaper for this. The hue white ambiance bulbs are not that expensive. Hue also uses ZigBee so doesn't use your WiFi

Irish_peppa

ED E wrote: »

Not quite Seanieke. Many routers can address even more that 254 hosts, in fact many multiples (say 1000-65000) but thats separate to WLAN capacity.


Some access points can only handle 16 devices, others 32 and a few more. 32 is fairly middle of the road. In cases like this the basic step is to setup an IoT access point. They tend to not need much bandwidth so a cheapo unit will do. That way you've gone from 2 to 3(4) radios and doubled your device limit. It also means your lamps arent contending your netflix on the TV.

The better solution is to build two entirely independent networks so when your IOT gear gets hacked (they will) it doest act as a beachhead for the rest of your data. Thats for nerds though.

Hi ED
So if I got a Second Identical Router. Would that mean I could have 32 plus 32 connections making about 60 connections? IE I would have 2 seperate WIFI networks. Would the second router not jam the first one up processing 60 devices?

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Would hue not be better and cheaper for this. The hue white ambiance bulbs are not that expensive. Hue also uses ZigBee so doesn't use your WiFi

I use the 40 watt old filament bulbs much prefer their glow stuck in my ways lol

The high horse brigade

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I use the 40 watt old filament bulbs much prefer their glow stuck in my ways lol

Oh you love wasting money
Hue would pay for themselves in no time and are dimmable

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Oh you love wasting money
Hue would pay for themselves in no time and are dimmable

Im more into Smart plugs Nest Ring Doorbell Google Homes. Not really keen on anything LED indoors though. LOVE controlling lights coming on and off but thats about it. Cant teach an old dog too many new tricks lol

Irish_peppa

I just chatted to Google Help and they said that their new Google Wifi System can handle up to 100 Simultaneous devices at once! Have any of you guys any experience with the Google system?

The high horse brigade

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I just chatted to Google Help and they said that their new Google Wifi System can handle up to 100 Simultaneous devices at once! Have any of you guys any experience with the Google system?

There's been a few threads on Google WiFi here if you search, it's highly recommended but cable between them if at all possible

ED E

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I just chatted to Google Help and they said that their new Google Wifi System can handle up to 100 Simultaneous devices at once! Have any of you guys any experience with the Google system?

Google Wifi is incompatible with most of the true fibre connections in Ireland, for the money you spend a little futureproofing isnt too much to ask.


Do you need the coverage of three APs currently (2 + Router)?


8 Home minis? Crikey!

Irish_peppa

ED E wrote: »

Google Wifi is incompatible with most of the true fibre connections in Ireland, for the money you spend a little futureproofing isnt too much to ask.


Do you need the coverage of three APs currently (2 + Router)?


8 Home minis? Crikey!

I thought the 2 APS would allow more connections lol but i was wrong. The total is 32 connections with or without extra access points.

My full IOT set up Right Now is:

1 x Nest
1 x Ring Pro
4 x Chromcasts
3 x Google Homes
5 x Google Home Minis
10 x TP Link Smart Plugs
1 x Google Audio

Wanted to add 2 x Google Hubs

Not much room for all the smart phones / tablets of which there are about 10

ED E

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I thought the 2 APS would allow more connections lol but i was wrong. The total is 32 connections with or without extra access points.

Aha.


You've configured them as wireless repeaters. They're thus 32 x 1 x 1= 32.

If you set them as APs not repeaters then you've got 32 + 32 + 32. This may require cabling in between.

Irish_peppa

bk wrote: »

It seems like some of the older Netgear only do 32!!!

https://kb.netgear.com/24043/How-many-clients-can-you-connect-wirelessly-to-a-NETGEAR-router

Well that certainly kills the idea of using lots of wifi switches/bulbs/etc.

Irish_peppa, can I ask what you are using so many wifi plugs for? Seems like a lot.

BTW a way around this might be to use a hub based solution. A SmartThings hub with z-wave plugs perhaps.

HI BK even their newest top of the range consumer units only do up to 32 ! is that normal with high end consumer routers?

Irish_peppa

ED E wrote: »

Aha.


You've configured them as wireless repeaters. They're thus 32 x 1 x 1= 32.

If you set them as APs not repeaters then you've got 32 + 32 + 32. This may require cabling in between.

Hi Ed no i have them configured as Access Points with ethernet cables. Tried them out as repeaters but they were not great the kept conflicting so just cabled them and set them up as APS. they work great. But unfortunatly i was onto netgear. They wont actually allow you to add more users to them seperate from the main router. its 32 on the main router thats it unfortunately. So even If you have 30 connections on the main router you can only add 2 more to the AP. After that neither the AP or router will allow anyone else onto network

ED E

That should not be the case. Do you see one SSID(Network name) or 3 or 6?

The high horse brigade

Your main router would not know if devices connected to access points are wired or wireless, they would all be the same as if wired. Is the limit 32 devices total (wired and wireless)? It's a pretty pathetic router if it is, time to replace.

Irish_peppa

ED E wrote: »

That should not be the case. Do you see one SSID(Network name) or 3 or 6?

I have 6 Seperate SSIDS, 3 for 2.4ghz and 3 for 5ghz all different ids

Yes the limit of 32 includes wired as well you can have a mix or all of both but not exceeding 32 per radio channel 2.4 or 5ghz

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Your main router would not know if devices connected to access points are wired or wireless, they would all be the same as if wired. Is the limit 32 devices total (wired and wireless)? It's a pretty pathetic router if it is, time to replace.

Yes the limit for all Netgear Routers is 32 per radio

ie : 32 Devices on the 2.4GHZ
32 on the 5ghz
64 grand total between both radios
64 total but i dont really have any 5ghz IOT devices so

bk

Irish_peppa wrote: »

HI BK even their newest top of the range consumer units only do up to 32 ! is that normal with high end consumer routers?

To be honest, I was fairly surprised myself at that answer. I knew that or much less (16 is common for ISP supplied ones) was common for low end ones, but that is a very nice router you have and I would have thought it could handle more.

I've a Netgear R7800 myself, similar to yours, a very good router, I would have assumed it could handle far more. I haven't hit the 32 limit myself yet, but not far off and mostly because I use a lot of Hub based systems for my IoT devices, Hue, SmartThings, Xiaomi, etc. and also have a wired ethernet network, so it allows me to keep a lot of my devices off wifi.

I'll definitely have to rethink some planned wifi smart plug purchases.

Sounds like these Netgear routers aren't really designed with IoT in mind. I can get why say 32 laptops might cause issues, but these types of Smart Plugs and other IoT devices should use little or no data, so should really add up to much.

Thing is wifi was never really designed for IoT. Zigbee, Z-wave were. Wifi might be nice for one or two wifi IoT devices, but this does so an interesting limitation of it.

Oh, BTW The new Ikea Smart plug might be another, cheaper option then SmartThings. It uses zigbee and a hub:

https://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/lighting/smart-lighting/tr%C3%A5dfri-control-outlet-kit-art-10364797/

The high horse brigade

Irish_peppa wrote: »

Yes the limit for all Netgear Routers is 32 per radio

ie : 32 Devices on the 2.4GHZ
32 on the 5ghz
64 grand total between both radios
64 total but i dont really have any 5ghz IOT devices so

That is the radios on the main wireless router itself. If you have access points that are wired they are not affected by this, they have their own radios and 32 more devices per radio

Irish_peppa

bk wrote: »

To be honest, I was fairly surprised myself at that answer. I knew that or much less (16 is common for ISP supplied ones) was common for low end ones, but that is a very nice router you have and I would have thought it could handle more.

I've a Netgear R7800 myself, similar to yours, a very good router, I would have assumed it could handle far more. I haven't hit the 32 limit myself yet, but not far off and mostly because I use a lot of Hub based systems for my IoT devices, Hue, SmartThings, Xiaomi, etc. and also have a wired ethernet network, so it allows me to keep a lot of my devices off wifi.

I'll definitely have to rethink some planned wifi smart plug purchases.

Sounds like these Netgear routers aren't really designed with IoT in mind. I can get why say 32 laptops might cause issues, but these types of Smart Plugs and other IoT devices should use little or no data, so should really add up to much.

Thing is wifi was never really designed for IoT. Zigbee, Z-wave were. Wifi might be nice for one or two wifi IoT devices, but this does so an interesting limitation of it.

Oh, BTW The new Ikea Smart plug might be another, cheaper option then SmartThings. It uses zigbee and a hub:

https://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/lighting/smart-lighting/tr%C3%A5dfri-control-outlet-kit-art-10364797/

Yes BK. I went to Currys and asked for their best router no expense to be spared. Got handed the X6 asked if it could handle 50 plus clients was told yup. It was only after the network wouldnt allow anyone on the 2.4ghz after 32 devices i discovered that. In fairness like yourself I thought it was band width that would limit me. as the smart plugs only activate twice per day but it seems whether your gaming or streaming HD or just a smart plug getting turned off or on twice a day makes no difference sounds bizarre but true! Once the router is getting a signal from the device its classed as a connection and thats that 32 max
Other than that Class router great range! Much better than the VM Hub 3

((Thing is wifi was never really designed for IoT. Zigbee, Z-wave were))
I never considered this i assumed all IOT connected to your wifi. I dont even know what these are but heard of them. So i need to copy you with HUB based systems.
So AM i right in saying 1 HUB would be 1 Connection

Ie Smart things Hub >>> Connected to 10 Smart Things Plugs = 1 Router Connection instead of 10 seperate TP Link WIFI connections if you get me.

Irish_peppa

@BK

lol seemed we went for the wrong Netgear routers.... the premium ones...
Apparently... the most basic cheap Netgear router can run up to 200 devices...

from the Netgear support page

To those of you questioning/complaining about number of wireless devices allowed on the Nighthawk Range
The simple and very inexpensive Netgear 802.1ac Wave II WAC505/WAC510 are supporting 200 concurrent connected clients.

what in the name of god :pac::eek:

bk

Yep, mad stuff all together!

In every other way I'm super happy with my router (it is the X4S), speed is fantastic (500Mb/s to my Mac), range is great and it has been rock solid reliability. I couldn't ask for more, been very happy with it.

I never imagined there would be a limitation like this on it!

But this explains it:

The simple and very inexpensive Netgear 802.1ac Wave II WAC505/WAC510 are supporting 200 concurrent connected clients.

Those are business access points. No difference really. But basically the 32 client limit is purely a business decision, a limitation set in firmware, in order to differentiate them from their business offerings. There is no technical limitation, simply a crappy sales tactic, very uncool :mad:

So one option you have, is follow ED E's advice, pick up one of those WAC505 * and connect all your smart plugs to it and a separate network, while keeping your X6 for laptops, etc.

* Obviously buy it from somewhere with an easy returns policy, just in case it doesn't work.

Ie Smart things Hub >>> Connected to 10 Smart Things Plugs = 1 Router Connection instead of 10 seperate TP Link WIFI connections if you get me.

Yep, that is exactly how it works.

I'd also look at the Ikea bridge and plugs. Works in the same way as above. If your only interested in smart plugs, it should be much cheaper, like €10 per plug, versus €60 per plug for smartthings! Though since you already have the plugs, grabbing a second router is a decent idea.