Vitamins and Minerals vat

lbc2019

elperello wrote: »

Yes but why is it the Revenue deciding what's good for our health?

Why dont they tax everything at 23% so?

Facepalm

lbc2019

The rickets epidemic is off the charts lads!

r93kaey5p2izun

jh79 wrote: »

Actually breast fed babies are more at risk due to low levels in breast milk. Babies need it because parents generally keep then out of the sun. Once they get out and about and eat a normal diet there is no need for it.

Your post also says that everyone has difficulty getting sufficient Vit D. There is little evidence to support even routine testing for Vit D in adults as few are that deficient to see adverse effects.

Search Vit D in Science Based Medicine and you'll find that the need for Vit D is greatly over hyped.

*There’s a lack of evidence to demonstrate that routine vitamin D testing is necessary. The Choosing Wisely campaign recommended against routine testing as the results of the test are not likely to change the medical advice you’ll receive, which includes basic lifestyle advice (stop smoking, control your weight, be active, and to focus on getting your vitamin D from food and the sun). Despite the recommendations against testing, it has become widespread: In 2011, US Medicare spent $224 million on vitamin D tests for seniors.*

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-rise-and-inevitable-fall-of-vitamin-d/

The FSAI and NHS state on their websites that it is difficult to get adequate Vitamin D from September to April in Ireland/UK. I have looked up about levels in published journal articles though with limited access. Many seem to be saying deficiency is widespread, around 1 in 5. Is that not the case in these countries? The info quoted above appears to be American - is it representative of Northern European sunlight exposure?

Xavier Dazzling Jaw

Xavier Dazzling Jaw wrote: »

The FSAI and NHS state on their websites that it is difficult to get adequate Vitamin D from September to April in Ireland/UK. I have looked up about levels in published journal articles though with limited access. Many seem to be saying deficiency is widespread, around 1 in 5. Is that not the case in these countries? The info quoted above appears to be American - is it representative of Northern European sunlight exposure?

"1 in 5 have low vit d which is not the same as a deficiency. " The at risk groups are house bound people or those who are covered up all the time.

It's only a recommendation as there isn't strong enough evidence to support it as a public health intervention.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/the-new-guidelines-on-vitamin-d-what-you-need-to-know/

Whirl_wolle

jh79 wrote: »

Totally agree with you here, targeted vitamin supplementation where there is a deficiency observed by a doctor is the only time they are needed.

I had to go to the dentist recently to get some work done where my mouth was left sore and tender afterwards for a few days each time. I was taking ibuprofen before and after my appointments, yet my mouth was still sore and tender. I couldn't face many foods. I felt taking a vitamin c supplement would have helped my sore mouth and gums. I didn't have any know deficiency. I didn't even think about going to the doctor to search for a deficiency. I bought a bottle of vitamin c and that was that.

Whirl_wolle

Whirl_wolle wrote: »

I had to go to the dentist recently to get some work done where my mouth was left sore and tender afterwards for a few days each time. I was taking ibuprofen before and after my appointments, yet my mouth was still sore and tender. I couldn't face many foods. I felt taking a vitamin c supplement would have helped my sore mouth and gums. I didn't have any know deficiency. I didn't even think about going to the doctor to search for a deficiency. I bought a bottle of vitamin c and that was that.

A temporary problem went away over time and you happened to take some vit c near the end of the natural healing process.

elperello

lbc2019 wrote: »

Why dont they tax everything at 23% so?

Facepalm

You will have to help me out here.
I understand that here are different VAT rates.

D9Male

elperello wrote: »

Agree that getting our requirements from natural sources is best.

TBH I'm more interested in the real reason for this change now. Paschal washing his hands of the decision makes me even more curious.

Would it be too naive to hope that maybe revenue have cottoned on to the fact that the industry is a big cod and are taxing these profiteering gits accordingly?

wakka12

Xavier Dazzling Jaw wrote: »

Will this apply to Vitamin D supplements that the HSE recommends for every baby? Vitamin D is really in a different category to other vitamins and minerals and it's very difficult to get adequate amounts in Ireland, particularly among certain groups within the population, and this is acknowledged by official bodies such as the FSAI.

Thats true, but many studies have shown Vitamin D supplementation to have a negligible impact on health or well being

elperello

D9Male wrote: »

Would it be too naive to hope that maybe revenue have cottoned on to the fact that the industry is a big cod and are taxing these profiteering gits accordingly?

Well I wouldn't accuse you of naivety but I'd like to understand the rationale for imposing this tax at this time.

The last time I checked the Revenue Commissioners were not the arbiters of community health.

The "profiteering gits" will just increase the price and the customers will pay more.

D9Male

It's great news anyway.

Why do you think they're doing it?

elperello

elperello wrote: »

Well I wouldn't accuse you of naivety but I'd like to understand the rationale for imposing this tax at this time.

The last time I checked the Revenue Commissioners were not the arbiters of community health.

The "profiteering gits" will just increase the price and the customers will pay more.

It should never have been vat exempt in the first place. Medicine is vat exempt and supplements are no longer considered to fit that classification.

elperello

D9Male wrote: »

It's great news anyway.

Why do you think they're doing it?

Great news that consumers will pay more?

I have no idea why they are doing it and until some politician asks the right questions I doubt I will.

D9Male

We have to raise revenue to pay for the running of the country. It's great to hear that proportionately more will come from this ridiculous industry.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

Great news that consumers will pay more?

I have no idea why they are doing it and until some politician asks the right questions I doubt I will.

What choice have you got? Customs routinely seize packages from iherb and apply vat and excise.

elperello

jh79 wrote: »

It should never have been vat exempt in the first place. Medicine is vat exempt and supplements are no longer considered to fit that classification.

Considered by the bean counters in Revenue.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

Considered by the bean counters in Revenue.

Pharma are the biggest players in the supplement industry so you never know a bit of lobbying might change things .

lbc2019

Idiot tax- I support it

c.p.w.g.w

meeeeh wrote: »

Or you can just have decent enough diet to get all needed vitamins and minerals. Most of supplements are about as effective as sugar pills.

Vitamin D & Magnesium are two notable deficiencies we suffer with in the west.

Also fish oils are good source of EPA which helps with brain function and can help lower high blood pressure.

Co Enzyme Q10 is important when taking statins as statin's also stops you liver from making Co Q10, important for heart muscle.

L-Lysine can be used by menopausal women to help them retain calcium. As they are at a higher risk of oesteoprosis.

Those 5 are far from sugar pills.

Getting from diet can be difficult,

Avocado's have 55mg of mag, nuts and seeds provide the same per 30 grams. That's a whole load of calories for someone overweight. Also some people think our need for Magnesium is higher than currently recommended. Low levels are linked to blood pressure and blood sugar issue.

Vitamin D from liver, sardines and expensive mushrooms.

Fish oils from oily fish, like salmon and mackeral

Co Q10, offal...hearts and liver seem the best.

L-Lysine chicken, nuts and seeds. But there isn't a know level required for benefits

c.p.w.g.w

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Vitamin D & Magnesium are two notable deficiencies we suffer with in the west.

Also fish oils are good source of EPA which helps with brain function and can help lower high blood pressure.

Co Enzyme Q10 is important when taking statins as statin's also stops you liver from making Co Q10, important for heart muscle.

L-Lysine can be used by menopausal women to help them retain calcium. As they are at a higher risk of oesteoprosis.

Those 5 are far from sugar pills.

What are you basing these claims on?

c.p.w.g.w

jh79 wrote: »

What are you basing these claims on?

Magnesium - https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/

Vit D - https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/

Fish Oils - https://examine.com/supplements/fish-oil/

Co Q10 - https://examine.com/supplements/coenzyme-q10/

Lysine - https://examine.com/supplements/lysine/

D9Male

So your source is a website that profits from selling these supplements? What makes you trust this website over peer-reviewed medical research?

c.p.w.g.w

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Magnesium - https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/

Vit D - https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/

Fish Oils - https://examine.com/supplements/fish-oil/

Co Q10 - https://examine.com/supplements/coenzyme-q10/

Lysine - https://examine.com/supplements/lysine/

Just seeing a list of studies with no critical analysis of them. And the summary of the results isn't impresive anyways. Lots of changes in biomarkers but no evidence of clincal effect.

The links from Science Based Medicine regarding the meta analysis already debunks the use of magnesium, Fish Oil and Vit D.

Havn't looked at the other 2 yet.

meeeeh

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Vitamin D & Magnesium are two notable deficiencies we suffer with in the west.

Also fish oils are good source of EPA which helps with brain function and can help lower high blood pressure.

Co Enzyme Q10 is important when taking statins as statin's also stops you liver from making Co Q10, important for heart muscle.

L-Lysine can be used by menopausal women to help them retain calcium. As they are at a higher risk of oesteoprosis.

Those 5 are far from sugar pills.

Getting from diet can be difficult,

Avocado's have 55mg of mag, nuts and seeds provide the same per 30 grams. That's a whole load of calories for someone overweight. Also some people think our need for Magnesium is higher than currently recommended. Low levels are linked to blood pressure and blood sugar issue.

Vitamin D from liver, sardines and expensive mushrooms.

Fish oils from oily fish, like salmon and mackeral

Co Q10, offal...hearts and liver seem the best.

L-Lysine chicken, nuts and seeds. But there isn't a know level required for benefits

And there is plenty of research out currently that will indicate the vitamin pills you are munching will make sweet all difference.

As far as I know even vitamin D thing isn't exactly clear cut and there is research out that taking supplement doesn't make any difference to bone strength.

Btw I'm pretty sure there are benefits to taking folic acid when trying to get pregnant, iron pills will help with iron deficiency. There are prescription pills with ingredients above that will make a difference however those are properly researched and tested medicines potent enough not to be sold without prescription.

And as others said the links you produced are sales pitch not research.

c.p.w.g.w

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Magnesium - https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/

Vit D - https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/

Fish Oils - https://examine.com/supplements/fish-oil/

Co Q10 - https://examine.com/supplements/coenzyme-q10/

Lysine - https://examine.com/supplements/lysine/

Lysine possibly reduces cold sores and that's about it according to webmd.

Co Q10, nothing too impresive there either.

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-938/coenzyme-q10

c.p.w.g.w

D9Male wrote: »

So your source is a website that profits from selling these supplements? What makes you trust this website over peer-reviewed medical research?

All studies are peer-reviewed. Also where do they sell supplements. They sell guides and books about supplementation

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Btw I'm pretty sure there are benefits to taking folic acid when trying to get pregnant, iron pills will help with iron deficiency. There are prescription pills with ingredients above that will make a difference however those are properly researched and tested medicines potent enough not to be sold without prescription.

Not sure about pregnancy but the studies that showed a benefit for folic acid supplementation were done in China where deficiency is a known issue and may not apply to western diets.

c.p.w.g.w

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

All studies are peer-reviewed. Also where do they sell supplements. They sell guides and books about supplementation

Did you read the summaries of the studies? I had a quick glance and saw nothing significant. And the meta analysis done on these same studies showed no benefit.

meeeeh

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

All studies are peer-reviewed. Also where do they sell supplements. They sell guides and books about supplementation

This is from Guardian article:

Whenever I see an article entitled “The science of … ” I become suspicious. So when the Guardian's G2 section published a piece last week called "The science behind dietary supplements" by Spencer Nadolsky of nutrition website examine.com, it rang alarm bells.

As it did for many others. Commenter flash131 discovered that Nadolsky appeared to be registered as a co-director of Leaner Living, which sells diet supplements. Subsequently, examine.com told the Guardian that he no longer has any connection to the company he co-founded, which is now run by his brother. However, during his time at Leaner Living Nadolsky received a warning from the Federal Drug Administration for making therapeutic claims for a product that hadn't received FDA approval.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/apr/15/dietary-supplements-vitamins-evidence

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/apr/15/dietary-supplements-vitamins-evidence

On the surface it looks like a decent website but once you click on the summaries it shows its true colours.

They rank the study designs ok but fail to anaylse the results in any meaningful way.

Graces7

always wonder why eg those who think supplements are useless feel the need to afflict others with their views?

we each make our own decisions on these things for our own valid reasons.

bsloepro

jh79 wrote: »

Lysine possibly reduces cold sores and that's about it according to webmd.

Co Q10, nothing too impresive there either.

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-938/coenzyme-q10

You read all that and came back with “nothing too impressive”!!

bsloepro

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Vitamin D & Magnesium are two notable deficiencies we suffer with in the west.

Also fish oils are good source of EPA which helps with brain function and can help lower high blood pressure.

Co Enzyme Q10 is important when taking statins as statin's also stops you liver from making Co Q10, important for heart muscle.

L-Lysine can be used by menopausal women to help them retain calcium. As they are at a higher risk of oesteoprosis.

Those 5 are far from sugar pills.

Getting from diet can be difficult,

Avocado's have 55mg of mag, nuts and seeds provide the same per 30 grams. That's a whole load of calories for someone overweight. Also some people think our need for Magnesium is higher than currently recommended. Low levels are linked to blood pressure and blood sugar issue.

Vitamin D from liver, sardines and expensive mushrooms.

Fish oils from oily fish, like salmon and mackeral

Co Q10, offal...hearts and liver seem the best.

L-Lysine chicken, nuts and seeds. But there isn't a know level required for benefits

Good post

meeeeh

Graces7 wrote: »

always wonder why eg those who think supplements are useless feel the need to afflict others with their views?

we each make our own decisions on these things for our own valid reasons.

I think it's fine as long as extra vat is paid and people don't make bogus health claims.

Canis Lupus

Graces7 wrote: »

always wonder why eg those who think supplements are useless feel the need to afflict others with their views?

we each make our own decisions on these things for our own valid reasons.

You don't like having facts inflicted upon you? Seems an odd way to want to live.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

always wonder why eg those who think supplements are useless feel the need to afflict others with their views?

we each make our own decisions on these things for our own valid reasons.

Why bury your head in the sand? The evidence on supplements is quite damning.

bsloepro

Canis Lupus wrote: »

You don't like having facts inflicted upon you? Seems an odd way to want to live.

One supplement - curcumin

Plenty of scientific research on that

Eg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/

bsloepro

bsloepro wrote: »

You read all that and came back with “nothing too impressive”!!

What did i miss?

bsloepro

jh79 wrote: »

Why bury your head in the sand? The evidence on supplements is quite damning.

On some of them yes but the term supplements refers to a wide variety of items

Guy:Incognito

Graces7 wrote: »

always wonder why eg those who think supplements are useless feel the need to afflict others with their views?

we each make our own decisions on these things for our own valid reasons.

I've decided McDonalds food balances my bodies vitamins. It should now be vat free .

bsloepro

bsloepro wrote: »

One supplement - curcumin

Plenty of scientific research on that

Eg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/

Afraid not, poor bioavailabilty is one major issue why 120 clinical trials have failed to show a use for it.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathic-death-from-iv-turmeric/

lbc2019

Graces7 wrote: »

always wonder why eg those who think supplements are useless feel the need to afflict others with their views?

we each make our own decisions on these things for our own valid reasons.

On a discussion website? Discussing why vat should be applied?

How very dare they!!!

lbc2019

wrecked_rectum wrote: »

Fact NO.5647
Rickets is back in a big way in England, wearing a bin bag and not getting enough sun will leave you Vit D deficient.
Without VITAMINS the muslim hoard could not live in N.Europe, hold on a minute, a cunning plan from our Government??

Fun fact: we’re not England

Collie D

wrecked_rectum wrote: »

Fact
we soon shall get the rejected immigrants from the UK after Brexit.

You’re in every thread spouting ****e that has nothing to do with the topic. Either start a thread on whatever it is you’re on about or **** off please.

relax carry on

wrecked_rectum wrote: »

Fact No 8759
some poster would rather remain in the dark than light a candle.

Honestly, I'd love to know what makes trolls tick. Is it a power thing? A sexual thing? A cry for attention?

bsloepro

jh79 wrote: »

Afraid not, poor bioavailabilty is one major issue why 120 clinical trials have failed to show a use for it.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathic-death-from-iv-turmeric/

That fact is correct, in isolation.

But to counter - bioperine.

lbc2019

relax carry on wrote: »

wrecked_rectum wrote: »

Fact No 8759
some poster would rather remain in the dark than light a candle.

Honestly, I'd love to know what makes trolls tick. Is it a power thing? A sexual thing? A cry for attention?

They weren’t hugged enough as children

lbc2019

wrecked_rectum wrote: »

lbc2019 wrote: »

Fun fact: we’re not England

Fact
we soon shall get the rejected immigrants from the UK after Brexit.

The EU ones???

bsloepro

bsloepro wrote: »

That fact is correct, in isolation.

But to counter - bioperine.

From the same link;

There is, however, an even bigger reason why curcumin has not cured dozens of diseases. There are compounds which researchers call pan-assay interference compounds, or PAINS. These are compounds that seem to have a lot of activity against specific proteins, but it turns out they are false positives. The assays used to test for such protein activity show artifacts of non-specific activity which mimics specific protein activity.

Any studies showing that the bioperine in combination with curcumin has a clinical effect?

bsloepro

jh79 wrote: »

From the same link;

There is, however, an even bigger reason why curcumin has not cured dozens of diseases. There are compounds which researchers call pan-assay interference compounds, or PAINS. These are compounds that seem to have a lot of activity against specific proteins, but it turns out they are false positives. The assays used to test for such protein activity show artifacts of non-specific activity which mimics specific protein activity.

Any studies showing that the bioperine in combination with curcumin has a clinical effect?

I’m sure if I typed it into google I’d find a link and then you could type it into google and find a link and on we’d go but to be honest winning an internet debate is not that important to me so I’m happy to concede to you af this point in time. I’ve bern taking curcumin, CO-enzyme q and thiamine for a year for heart health (for a heart condition), based on my own reading along the way. I have not however kept a record over that time of my bibliography and references for this post. But I did my reading and research and based on this made the decision to take these supplements. But yeah we could do this all day. But if I do come back across some links I’ll be sure to come back on here and post them.
As for whether it’s done my condition any good or not I have no idea - last ECG showed less inflammation of the heart - whether this is due to the above or just better living I don’t know.
I could also type into google “evidence of non-existent man made climate change”, “dinosaurs never existed” etc and get back links - there’s some interesting comments on the journal on this one at the moment.
So yeah for now - I’ll be off